What is wrong with Injustice 2 (and NRS games)

[Swindle]

This makes so much sense that I'm positive no one will read it

"Apes read philosophy, they just don't understand it. " - Wanda (paraphrased for context)

 

[THTB]

Why are we talking about Supergirl's +7 string as if this is the final build of the game lol?

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

You don't know anything about Quan Chi if you think his only weakness is a bad armor attack.

He's very good, definitely top 10 but really?

Sigh.

quan chi top 10? no way dude

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I came into this thread ready to blow someone up for hating on injustice. while he did acknowledge it is an early build he does make some very good points considering mk9, inj and mkx's history.

The one thing you really didn't elaborate on was the casuals role in these games and how they effect balancing. In the end, I think I read/heard the hardcare competitive scene amounts for <3-5% of all total sales. I 100% agree with your risk reward comments and NRS games do not always balance as such. The causal play has to be considered. Even after death strokes zoning was fucking murdered, casual players still could not deal with it. I think that is why you have characters with crazy mobility and are mostly safe to appeal to the casual crowd. in the end its a business and the share holders.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I find it rather amusing that people get agressive towards me, while I actually supported every point with arguments. Its ok to disagree, just dont be a dick pls.

im not sure this will ever happen.. its an online forum. better to just ignore it.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

the fact that there is no character in the beta that has an advantage on block mixup

atrocitus with dex?

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Just to add this..

NRS makes a specific kind of game, it's a specific style and ideal. If you strip away that identity you end up with a clone of other fighting games with an NRS skin.

I totally understand criticisms and opinions but a lot of what I read just sounds like you wanting something like Street Fighter but called Mortal Kombat.

NRS isn't perfect and believe me I have my gripes, they are still figuring out how to balance and they haven't really learned how to walk the line between strong and stupid, I agree on those points entirely - but if I sit down to play an NRS game I expect a certain experience, I expect a certain style of game. That style can be perfectes sure, but doing so at the loss of the identity of NRS games would be a huge mistake.

I totally disagree that when every character is bad it's 'good' for the game. Even if it sucks, really sucks, having it done to you, the feeling of.going proper ham in an NRS game is extremely hard to match anywhere else. You are a ball.of overwhelming, bullshit plus frames, chip damage, guesses and third of your life combos. That 'power trip' kind of feeling is at the core of what makes an NRS game FEEL like an NRS game and what brings players back and keeps them grinding MUs and tech and everything else. Remove that sense of overwhelming power and momentum from the game and you destroy one of its foundations.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

L O L

 

[chores]

just pick a top tier problem solved

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

whats funny is how fast MKX died. Its almost non existent and thats only because the i2 Beta was released.

MK9 was still better than MKX in may players eyes. Call it rose colored glasses is you want but MKX had real problems which probably stemmed some of Belial's thought process.

I'll even go as far to say that Injustice is NRS' best franchise in both a financial and competitive stance.

Idk I haven't played MK9 can't really say that MKX is a better game but from my perspective with the INFOS I have on both MK9 and MKX MK9 seem worse simply due to the bug/shenanigans that were common in it

 

[UGL Preon]

Casuals are the 1.9-2.5 million that bought MKX. There's a few thousand players who care to level up and can't travel and several hundred that do.

When you try to push for tournaments and omit features that bring casuals and have the game rushed out for a pro tour. You go through the slow methodical sales pacing of SFV.

Injustice 2 just has to "Look fun" and the Gear system will do just that. That and it's a game with Batman and Superman in it and the Injustice comic has been stellar. So the non-professional market is covered.

Tekken 7 has the luxury of having its growing pains / balance issues aired out in the Japan/Korea arcades for a year to a year and a half. Then gets a console/PC release with a story and console exclusive game modes. So the game not only looks hype, it'll have location testing at all levels, and casuals will already be able to search for "tech" on YouTube.

NRS games have a lot of cheesey ways to win with chip and injustice 1s interactables. The casual crowd loves that type of stuff.

How does this relate? Casuals always feeling like they have a fair shot to win is something they like. Not good execution? Main Doomsday, Bane, early F23breath loops, low gun shots. Not good at combos? Day 1 Kung Jin. Back in MK9 every casual had a Liu Kang that just did 123 123 123 or b312 dash b312 dash b312. Wouldn't be enough to beat a veteran but it gave the illusion that you knew what you were doing. That and characters that excel everywhere with no big weaknesses are something that happens in a lot of games. It's just that in NRS games traditionally those characters happen to fall into the lower execution barrier. Casuals aren't going to just pick up and mop legacy players in Marvel, Guilty Gear, Tekken, etc. But even casual Doomsdays/Aliens/Launch BoJutsu could take games off people.

 

[KingHippo]

atrocitus with dex?

Definitely not the low, idk about the overhead. Atrocitus is real slow and the dex blockatun ain't exactly sinestro or igau Batman

 

[snort]

I actually thought the first Injustice was a good game with just a couple of small nerfs away, to chars like MMH, Zod, and AM, from being well balanced. So their's a good chance we'll have another great game.

 

[Kyo Syozi]

I just loved Injustice GAU. It's not the perfect game, but I had a blast playing and watching high level matches of it.
That's why I agree with Entropics there. When I want to play something similar competitively to SFV, i just play SFV. When I want to play a NRS game, all I want is to play Injustice or MK.

On the other hand, I agree that the NRS games need to be better thought about balance, but I reaaly think that they are trying it, it's not like they don't give a shit.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Idk I haven't played MK9 can't really say that MKX is a better game but from my perspective with the INFOS I have on both MK9 and MKX MK9 seem worse simply due to the bug/shenanigans that were common in it

What made MK9 better was the following: (FYI this is my opinion)

1) It had massive nostalgia with the original characters and was the first branch back to 2d fighters after their 3d games.

2) Footsies and whiff punishing was the main way to get damage rather than straight MIX.

3) When there were 50/50s were usually not leading to huge combos. For example, kabal 50/50s did not lead to combos yet he was the best character in the game due to his other tools. The risk reward options were also more present. Skarlet had a command dash that could be cancelled into a low slide or an overhead that lead to a combo. The overhead was super punishable while the slide was safe. Smoke had a overhead that led to an infinite but his only low was his d4.

4) They had more diverse archetypes in characters. Rush down was strong but so was zoning and so was neutral. Cage was a top 5 character who was 100% pressure. Kitana was a spacing Goddess with footsies, raiden was a versitle anti zoning or turtle character, etc.

Bugs can ruin the game but the parts that were fun are less prominent in MKX even if MKX doesn't have the bugs.

 

[shura30]

@Belial has really good points, I'd adjust a few of them but more in general NRS balancing is far from what Belial would like to see
the introduction of legacy games with I2 would definitely help
in comparison, tekken is the same game since its release only with engine addition and frames adjustments
any tekken player with each release will not have to re-learn a game from scratch: their mishimas will wavedash the same as they always did

if NRS is really going along this path I'm confident the next games will take right after the old's latest patch
just imagine mk11 building on the current version of mkxl, definitely an awesome place to start

most of mkx early problems were not the 50/50s themselves but the loops and the incredibly plus jails/restands where the advantage was just enough for someone to escape a slower attack with an hit level but still threatening because jailing into faster ones

 

[Eddy Wang]

Come on ppl, do you guys really need to be a dick, he has a point tho, problem is, no one in TYM actually listen anyone, so anything that is talked in TYM always falls into death ears for the most part which is sad.

Some ppl in this thread Belial included have brought some really interesting points.

Also shootouts to the dude that said, game has scrub mechanics so scrub players can ejoy it, hence way, potato moves, overpowered anti-airs with active frames out of the ass (that was a good one) so they can jump pretty easy.



I for once i think there is nothing wrong for making scrubs level up a bit, a fighting game doesn't need to have imba moves, imba jumps and so on, in order for a scrub to enjoy it, he still going to enjoy all the same even if we get a balanced game, and may actually have to learn a little bit.

I remember when UMK3 came out for sega genesis, Jump kicks could be done with no air restriction, and the active frames would last from the moment the character leaves the ground until it reaches the floor, it was pretty hard to anti-air considering the hurtbox position and such.

Somehow they nerfed in MK Trilogy by giving it recovery frames, yet scrubs or not enjoyed all the same, and it has been considered even now one of the best MK games ever made, back in the day it was even the game of the world, but ever since this jump thing has became a stapple on NRS games, MK9 had this type of jump attack, MKX doesn't have it, but its irrelevant ever since the active frames of jump attacks kinda does the same thing.

I know ppl are mad because ppl are complaining over a beta, but i think this is the perfect time to put your concerns on, in 2015 when we started asking technical questions regarding technical issues NRS told us "this is not the time to worry about balance now" i still think this was a mistake, because it led to the game we had in april 15

from a moment a fighting game is being made, either for astetics or not, u have to define really well what u want to achieve and start balancing there, i still think all NRS needs is to define a set of rules, amd make sure every character fits that rule, indepent of the meta being unbiased over these things is important.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

I wish all complaint threads could be this well thought-out. It's not an "I don't like this. *cry*", it's a "here are my issues, here's why I have these issues, and here's what they could do to fix these issues". Great job!

 

[Dizzy]

MK9 Cage was a top 5 character

 

[shura30]

in 2015 when we started asking technical questions regarding technical issues NRS told us "this is not the time to worry about balance now" i still think this was a mistake, because it led to the game we had in april 15

thread closed

 

[Immortal]

atrocitus with dex?

Low is still -, overhead with proper timing is around +2 at best.

 

[KingHippo]

Come on ppl, do you guys really need to be a dick

No, but I think if the op wants to take a hostile tone and throw an air of superiority, then be either wrong or intellectually dishonest about what he's talking about, then yes. Bullheadedness can really only be met with tough responses

I know ppl are mad because ppl are complaining over a beta, but i think this is the perfect time to put your concerns on, in 2015 when we started asking technical questions regarding technical issues NRS told us "this is not the time to worry about balance now" i still think this was a mistake, because it led to the game we had in april 15

Because IMAGINE NRS caring about hot takes from ppl who aren't playing the game and only watching videos. The mkx release wasn't perfect, buy I won't pretend any theory fighting TYM post would have solved it.

Look at how irrational most of the balance suggestions are to this day. Eddie, you want d1s to not go under high pokes. If there was anything indicative of "this guy doesn't know what he's talking about," that would be it.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

lol...ok. maybe he was 6 or 7? Dizzy watching and waiting lmao

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

The 50/50's style that you mention are mainly in 3d games, having an unsafe launching mid (must block it standing) and a low damage safe low kick where you keeping fuckin up their shins till they duck and eat the launcher. I get that but 2d games generally have cancels which can remove a lot of the restrictions the engine imposes.
In MKX there are characters that follow that formula to an extent, Kung Lao and Liu Kang are both good examples for this kind of risk/reward as they only have the big damage from one of their 50/50 options so those styles exist in MKX and other NRS games, they're just rare.
However they also have characters that follow a similar kind of philosophy where they have a 50/50 and 1 option is more punishable (Shinnok b3) or goes into less damage (Reptile b33), or has less range (Jacqui's b33). These differences can help the defender block the most likely option in said range/situation.

I personally disagree about the "rule of three" you have, mainly because I can't even think of a fighting game that actually follows that.
However, i do agree in the sense that risk/reward should be looked into a bit more.
Having a launching, fast, advancing, safe tool is generally not a good idea and is what MKX/i1 have a lot of as most strings can be continued into a combo of some sort (be it through the string launching or a cancel into a launching special) or can be made safe (if they're not safe/plus already).

Personally i think shit like superman's f23 makes 0 sense balance-wise, unless it's not cancellable into specials or he can't combo off of it, but that's another argument for another day.
At this point it's clear that NRS's balancing approach is a bit different from the norm as they consider their games in the middle of the dirtyness spectrum (where one side is "honest" stuff like Street fighter/Tekken where everything is generally more on the tame side and the offense is more based on the mental aspect, and the other side is "totally scummy" like Marvel/Blazblue where they know their end product isn't gonna be balanced but it's flashy and more open so players can be more creative).

NRS games are generally in the middle where they're trying to be balanced and patch the games often to make it a more even ground, but they have elements and tools that aren't realistic to have in a game that tries to be an "honest" game so they sometimes go "fuck it" and add some stupid shit just because.

Also, most NRS characters are generally "hybrids" as they like to spread almost every tool to everyone. In general very few characters fall in 1 category only. It's their idea to make everyone more balanced coz this way you "should" have an option for all situations. You can see it in stuff like how every character in MK9 has a projectile, or how everyone has a universal f3 overhead in injustice, or the meterburn throws in MKX to give everyone a restand option.
The thing is though, even if everyone has the same tool in the end some are better than others, having a shitty projectile like Kotal's isn't gonna stop Sektor from zoning you the fuck out.. They both have the same tool on paper but they are very different.. At points NRS don't seem to realize stuff like that and how (IMO) the real issue in all their games is the lack of proper defensive options/mechanics.
In all NRS games so far all your defensive options either require meter such as pushblock and armored moves, or are only accessible when you're knocked down such as wakeup attacks or delayed wakeup meaning restands (which should be removed imo) will put you in a mixup state where you don't have these options.

This approach is obviously not the best but this is how they do it to try to compensate for the general lack/difference of stuff in other games that helps you defensively such as parry/short hop/meterless invincible options/roll/good walkspeed/hitboxes that make sense etc.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

No, but I think if the op wants to take a hostile tone and throw an air of superiority, then be either wrong or intellectually dishonest about what he's talking about, then yes. Bullheadedness can really only be met with tough responses

But he wasn't wrong about the standards in which fighters can be balanced and enjoyed. He was only wrong in how injustice implements those standards. You tend to be harsh on people who are just trying to have a discussion.