What's new

What is wrong with Injustice 2 (and NRS games)

Belial

Kombatant
After watching the buff more than nerf video i say balance is for losers. Lets keep all the broken stuff and buff everyone else to oblivion. Let the games begin.
I have made this(opposite to the video) point awhile ago. Tournaments are itself proof of broken stuff that needs a nerf. Buff however is always subjective. What the video calls for is to priotirize subjective opinion over objective data, i.e prefer superstitions over science. Needless to say this line of thinking is not just stupid, its harmful.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
This is mostly bullshit. The only valid point is characters having everything and no weaknesses, Regarding supergirl... it's a beta, they didn't even put superman's entire movelist in. i doubt they'll put superfast +9 projectiles in the final game. and with mkx's risk reward that's just straight bullshit. what fighting games exactly are you playing cus in the shit i'm playing there's plus 50/50's into pressure all day. and the rule of three is just straight bullshit. Lackey has the fastest and furthest reaching d1 in the game. he has an 11 frame mid, safe 50/50's, stupid damage and he's bottom 5. You can't say just never do these three things in any game cus that's bullshit.
 
I know a lot of people think its too early to judge the game. On the other hand, when its out it might be too late, because I firmly belive NRS games have been featuring some design flaws for a long time, and INGAU beta proves they are here to stay.

1) NRS really needs to pick up on a "rule of three": fast, damaging, safe: pick two. It is a staple in fighting games for a long time. Othewise you end up with Supergirl with 7 frame start-up string, that is +7 on block and confirmable into combo on hit. I understand its much easier to shove stuff like this down our throats saying "its her gameplan" and balance the game around 1-move-characters, but we, as the community have to say "no" at some point.

2) NRS has to re-evaluate Risk/Reward. Lets look at the recent MKX balance patch, that had 50/50 nerfed and everyone seems happy about it. However 50/50 go all the way through FG's and there have been no complains about it. If you think about it a bit you realize its not 50/50 but Risk Reward off them: you got overhead/low mixup that's advantage on block into full-combo restands.
A good mindgame is when you have to set-up you strong options. For example when you have a safe, but weak-damage low-atack and powerful, but unsafe overhead. Or when both low and overhead are unsafe, but you can pay a bar and make ONE of them safe or plus etc. Then its skill: get into his head, annoy him spamming weaker option FORCE him into doing something. NRS safe mixups require no skill to use and thats what everyone hated.

3) NRS have to understand that characters cannot have it all. If you give something, you must take something. Top characters in NRS barely have any weaknesses. Actually lets look at Sorcerer Quan Chi - not even a top tier. He has mixup that can be made plus for a bar, has great damage, Hard Knockdown into setups, one of the best zoning, crazy range of normals and insane corner. His only weakness is lack of proper armor that makes other characters beasts against him in the corner. However he is a beast when he has you in the corner. That is not really balance, since his other tools are so good. Take away either zoning or mixup, allow rune to only be meter-burned on hit unsafe otherwise, so its only safe and powerful in the corner when you have portal out. And you have a character with a lot of weak spots, and one really-really strong. You made Alien terrible, if you cant have it any other way - make all characters terrible. It wont make balance perfect, but when everyone is bad ITS BETTER than when everybody is broken. Terrible character has lots of weaknesses to be exploited, where strong character has barely any.

4) Consider characters having a "role". In INGAU 1 NRS tried to create zoning, it was sort of terrible for a lot of reasons and now they butcher zoning in every game, creating lots of "hybrid" characters. Partially that stems from NRS poor implication of Risk Reward and rule of three.

Basically FG has 4 ways to win (it can be expanded, but as a framework)
- Zoning (everything concerning distance and range control)
- Mixup (everything that forces a guess on the enemy)
- Pressure (any mechanic that forces action, like chip damage, building a bar for atacking block etc, other FG have more of these)
- Defence (punishing unsafes, wiffs, parry, high or low crushes etc)

In regards to game mechanics that factors are supposed to be equally effective. A balanced char has these in some sort of equilibrium. For example char A has all 4 at 5/10, char B has Zoning and mixup at 10, but Pressure and defence at 0. These characters are equal in terms of mechanics. If disbalance occurs, its for either reason:
a) These 4 factors are not in balance (ie someone has all at 10)
b) Game mechanics favor a particular way to win making other 3 less viable thus favoring characters that have that one particular strength

5) NRS have to re-evaluate mechanics that are already in the game and look elsewhere for inspiration. I understand they may believe it makes game unique, but there's a lot of confusion in how they do things. For example some mechanics are aimed to force a reaction from people who block a lot. NRS have that covered by introducing the most ridiculous chip damage ever and on top of that meter is built for atacker. Its fine. But when at the same time you dont provide any means to actually "react" (parry, lowcrush, highcrush, invulnerability etc) you have that very mechanic work against itself. Ironically all defencive options cost meter and meter is only built by atacker. Thus this mechanic totally contradicts itself. And thats just one example.

As always share your thoughts on the matter. If anyone can bring this thread to NRS attention it would be most welcome.

PS: FYI I am a top player for various FG, having most succeded as Soul Calibur player (9 at EVO, top 8 at MLG, top 1 at EBO (european major), that really wants to love NRS games for their support and open approach to community, but I just cant enjoy them right now.
Can a mod please close this thread this is the classic NRS bashing backed by dubious logic that we see here from time to time this kind of thread always annoys me tbh
1) Can you please give me 3 current fighting games that follow your rule of thumb please and not just state vaguely that it's a staple of Fighting games?
2)50/50s are complained about in every game MKX is no exception the big difference is that the MK community is more vocal where in certain games they avoid to talk about characters being broken on stream we don't.
3)Balancing to the lowest common denominator has never produced a game that was remembered as fun the games in FG franchises that are considered the most fun often have one of the worse balance of that franchise ( Soul Calibur 3, SF 3rd strike etc) or balanced but have most character being extremely strong(GG Xrd).
4)I can't think of one game where those 4 concept are all equally viable that game does not exist it's pretty often 2 or 3 that are viable and the 4th one is weak
 

Belial

Kombatant
Can a mod please close this thread this is the classic NRS bashing backed by dubious logic that we see here from time to time this kind of thread always annoys me tbh
1) Can you please give me 3 current fighting games that follow your rule of thumb please and not just state vaguely that it's a staple of Fighting games?
2)50/50s are complained about in every game MKX is no exception the big difference is that the MK community is more vocal where in certain games they avoid to talk about characters being broken on stream we don't.
3)Balancing to the lowest common denominator has never produced a game that was remembered as fun the games in FG franchises that are considered the most fun often have one of the worse balance of that franchise ( Soul Calibur 3, SF 3rd strike etc) or balanced but have most character being extremely strong(GG Xrd).
4)I can't think of one game where those 4 concept are all equally viable that game does not exist it's pretty often 2 or 3 that are viable and the 4th one is weak
If it bothers you why answer? Are you trying to close all threads that bother you?
1) Soul Calibur 5, Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection, Street Fighter franchise pretty much. Any jpn figthing except MvC probably. Of course some expand on the formula, but NRS fails at most basic things.
2) Not true.
3) Is there a "fun" chart somewhere? Btw SC3 was the most cursed and despised, least played part of franchise.
4) I wonder what you're basing that on. Even if some games fail to deliver perfect equilibrium its preferable to strive for it. If you base your logic off "there is worse that that" you might as well end up playing Divekick.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
I would reply, but the OP is not aware of some basic facts about the I2 beta, which is that the supergirl string in question is not actually a true blockstring, and the fact that there is no character in the beta that has an advantage on block mixup (or even a safe one, really). As such, I find it hard to take seriously.

AKA a typical Belial post. Full of sound and fury and nothing else
 

EMPEROR_KNICKS

Master of Kombat(frauds)
I find it rather amusing that people get agressive towards me, while I actually supported every point with arguments. Its ok to disagree, just dont be a dick pls.
First off id like to start by saying im not gonna be agreasive or a dick i dont know why people here are its just belials opinion chill. Anyway injustice 2 at least as of right now in the beta no characters has a plus mix or really even a mix thats plus on oh and low. Atrocitus mix even with dex starr is punishable after u block the puddle meter burn back 3 it will absorb dex starr and you punish for like 40s and above. Supermans dive bomb also a free punish batman doesnt really have mixups in the neutral and his are kinda safe but u can pushblock and his movement is ass. Supergirl her low is safe oh really punishable shes only dumb bc of her pressure. So for the most part no safe 50 50s but the game has good walkspeed good shimmy and way less bs.
 

MisguidedAngel

Greetings, Mortal
The first Injustice had some of the coolest character designs in any FG.

I'm not about to rally behind stifling that creativity.

When I want something simple I play Soul Calibur. When I want crazy-go-nuts I play NRS games or Marvel ;)

When you try too hard for balance you end up with SFV.
 
If it bothers you why answer? Are you trying to close all threads that bother you?
1) Soul Calibur 5, Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection, Street Fighter franchise pretty much. Any jpn figthing except MvC probably. Of course some expand on the formula, but NRS fails at most basic things.
2) Not true.
3) Is there a "fun" chart somewhere? Btw SC3 was the most cursed and despised, least played part of franchise.
4) I wonder what you're basing that on. Even if some games fail to deliver perfect equilibrium its preferable to strive for it. If you base your logic off "there is worse that that" you might as well end up playing Divekick.
I Respond because

1)I said current those games are old they all pretty much dead and have been for a long time Speaking about SF Chun Li was safe damaging and was pretty safe If I m not lying Urien is pretty much the same.
2)true
3) I may be wrong about SC3 I won't keep pushing on that point but my point with the other games still stand
4) I never said not to strive for perfection I m saying don't like perfection exist and that NRS is the black child of the golden fighting game developer


 

FinalBoss_FGC

Day -4MONTHS Dual Jin main
I can agree about a few points and I think the chip damage is spot on...but this beta is an even earlier build than they have now. The beta is 100% dedicated to testing the online. I think NRS nearly figured it out with the last patch for MKX...nearly.

I think the fact they don't have a for sure dedicated "fast, damaging, or safe" should appeal to more people's playstyle but it also makes balancing a beeyotch. They can get there, tho. I expect I2 to start significantly more balanced that IGAU or MKX did and makes the end result more crisp.

Stay positive bro!
 
Hi!
I'm new.

I can only agree about the chars having more strenghts than weaknesses. But the majority of fg are very similar about the rest of your content. I also agree that the companies will (and should) always give more attention to the casual players, just because they are the ones who really spend their dollars. The competitive scenario is secondary, although I prefer it.

But the rest... I dunno, I see those kind of things in basicaly every fg, so I can't agree that this is a NRS problem.

Peace from São Paulo!
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
I find it rather amusing that people get agressive towards me, while I actually supported every point with arguments. Its ok to disagree, just dont be a dick pls.
I would reply, but the OP is not aware of some basic facts about the I2 beta, which is that the supergirl string in question is not actually a true blockstring, and the fact that there is no character in the beta that has an advantage on block mixup (or even a safe one, really). As such, I find it hard to take seriously.

AKA a typical Belial post. Full of sound and fury and nothing else
People are being pretty dickish towards you Belial I'll agree. They can explain their disagreements with more taste but hey...this is a fighting game forum. What can you expect? To be honest though Hippo has a great point. NRS fighters still follow your 3 rules but in different ways. Like hippo said, the + stings usually have a gap that allow you to armor or backdash making them risky. The chip and meter build is appropriate due to the clash system and combo escape mechanics that are fantastic defensive options. Adding armor to f3/b3 for a bar is also a great defensive tactic.
Can a mod please close this thread this is the classic NRS bashing backed by dubious logic that we see here from time to time this kind of thread always annoys me tbh
1) Can you please give me 3 current fighting games that follow your rule of thumb please and not just state vaguely that it's a staple of Fighting games?
2)50/50s are complained about in every game MKX is no exception the big difference is that the MK community is more vocal where in certain games they avoid to talk about characters being broken on stream we don't.
3)Balancing to the lowest common denominator has never produced a game that was remembered as fun the games in FG franchises that are considered the most fun often have one of the worse balance of that franchise ( Soul Calibur 3, SF 3rd strike etc) or balanced but have most character being extremely strong(GG Xrd).
4)I can't think of one game where those 4 concept are all equally viable that game does not exist it's pretty often 2 or 3 that are viable and the 4th one is weak
Tak...only problem with your post is that the OP seems genuinely concerned with the balance of NRS fighters. He may need more education on the game but at least his heart was in the right place. This could be a great discussion if people will allow it to be.

The top tiers in NRS games do seem to have all their options at 10 while others are lucky to be at 5. MKX balance was NRS best attempt to do this and I expect more of this with i2. Thought provoking post. Thank you @Belial
 
People are being pretty dickish towards you Belial I'll agree. They can explain their disagreements with more taste but hey...this is a fighting game forum. What can you expect? To be honest though Hippo has a great point. NRS fighters still follow your 3 rules but in different ways. Like hippo said, the + stings usually have a gap that allow you to armor or backdash making them risky. The chip and meter build is appropriate due to the clash system and combo escape mechanics that are fantastic defensive options. Adding armor to f3/b3 for a bar is also a great defensive tactic.


Tak...only problem with your post is that the OP seems genuinely concerned with the balance of NRS fighters. He may need more education on the game but at least his heart was in the right place. This could be a great discussion if people will allow it to be.

The top tiers in NRS games do seem to have all their options at 10 while others are lucky to be at 5. MKX balance was NRS best attempt to do this and I expect more of this with i2. Thought provoking post. Thank you @Belial
The thing is I've seen so many post/thread like this at some point seeing a new one doesn't really bring anything new and too much of the same tends to annoy at this point making this kind of thread is just going in circle IMO
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
The thing is I've seen so many post/thread like this at some point seeing a new one doesn't really bring anything new and too much of the same tends to annoy at this point making this kind of thread is just going in circle IMO
whats funny is how fast MKX died. Its almost non existent and thats only because the i2 Beta was released.

MK9 was still better than MKX in may players eyes. Call it rose colored glasses is you want but MKX had real problems which probably stemmed some of Belial's thought process.

I'll even go as far to say that Injustice is NRS' best franchise in both a financial and competitive stance.