Let's talk about the MB roll mechanic.

[GAV]

BTW - Supergirl seems really strong - but I don't think she's OP because you can't stretch defenses safely with her, but you can choose to chain and pick spots to go out on a limb - which makes it seem like she's always on offense. Still, I think its just because her opponents aren't pure archetypes. She isn't going to be able to outzone Deadshot or play rushdown against Damien Wayne. She seems pretty good at everything right now though. Against her, you need to cross her up with Batman, use punchwalk through exchanges with Atrocitus, and punish freeze her with Superman. These seem overly simple, but their threat holds her at bay. Also, block low on reaction because her overheads are react-able. Lastly, don't forget about the roll.

 

[GAV]

But Paulo said zoning was going to return

Zoning will be king once a pure zoner is introduced. These mechanics have me hoping for all hybrids.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

You literally have Air-Teching in this game. Meterburn roll NEED to be that good or you're never going to be able to touch a good zoner because they will build meter quickly and then just air tech out of bad situations.

Good point but air teching is full combo punishable if baited. The roll? if you bait it you can't punish it. That's all im asking for... if I read it or react to it I want to be able to punish it.

 

[omooba]

this is fine as long as you can't punish any projectile on reaction from fullscreen. It should definitely have more recovery though

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Like I thought a really long time about this (Keep in mind I don't have a code so this isn't based on actual from experience opinion so my opinion IS subject to change but I've watched a decent amount of the game by this point) and I feel as though the balancing behind Meterburn roll and Air-teching goes hand in hand. Meterburn is a primarily offensive tool with some defensive abilities of course but I think we can agree it's primarily offensive while air teching is exclusively defensive. In fact, air teching is SUCH an effective defensive tool that meterburn roll being good, just makes sense to me. Sure the rushdown have a good way in but you have a great way to get them off of you. It really allows players to play characters in a plethora of ways and allows for a ton of creativity to be involved from player to player.

I DO agree that the air tech is a good defensive option. I like it.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I will not be able to test things again until tonight.

If anyone can thoroughly test its physical invulnerability and report back that would be awesome. The question is... even though it has very little recovery in that when the animation ends you can move right awar, can you actually punish the roll before the animation ends with a d1 or like? @SonicFox5000 @REO

 

[Wetdoba]

I think its fine at 1 bar, there are so many thigs to spend meter on in this game like mb B3, air tech, pushblock, mb specials, clashes etc that I dont think it will be a huge problem but it should definitely be punished when baited like the air techs can be.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Good point but air teching is full combo punishable if baited. The roll? if you bait it you can't punish it. That's all im asking for... if I read it or react to it I want to be able to punish it.

You're right I just don't like the overreaction that some people have had to the mechanic, it makes way for extreme decisions with little thought put into them.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Also meter management is something everyone better get good at because it is going to be one of the most important strengths to have in this game FREE

 

[Awkward Sloth]

I agree mb roll was set up with an anti zoning agenda in mind. I don't like it.

More testing needs to be done with it. If I had a code I would gladly help.

The screen in Injustice 2 is a lot smaller full screen than its predecessor. I find it weird that the roll goes so far when there's not too much distance from one person to the other.

It doesn't seem like there is a true zoning archetype character in inj2 to test how it fully impacts zoning characters. Maybe when they update Harley in we will get a better idea.

I don't necessarily agree that it should cost 2 bars because of how the chip seems greater in this game than before. That would make comebacks from full screen nearly impossible. I'd say the more recovery will be needed tho.

 

[Rolling_Toaster]

smack me with that buns mileena @PLAYING TO WIN

 

[JDM]

I will not be able to test things again until tonight.

If anyone can thoroughly test its physical invulnerability and report back that would be awesome. The question is... even though it has very little recovery in that when the animation ends you can move right awar, can you actually punish the roll before the animation ends with a d1 or like? @SonicFox5000 @REO

In REOs video he punishes the roll but it's kind of a preemptive punish. You have GOT to be ready for that shit.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I agree mb roll was set up with an anti zoning agenda in mind. I don't like it.

More testing needs to be done with it. If I had a code I would gladly help.

The screen in Injustice 2 is a lot smaller full screen than its predecessor. I find it weird that the roll goes so far when there's not too much distance from one person to the other.

It doesn't seem like there is a true zoning archetype character in inj2 to test how it fully impacts zoning characters. Maybe when they update Harley in we will get a better idea.

I don't necessarily agree that it should cost 2 bars because of how the chip seems greater in this game than before. That would make comebacks from full screen nearly impossible. I'd say the more recovery will be needed tho.

dude you said a lot of what I was thinking. I am going to do an overall impression after a week or so. This is one of my dislikes (though there are very few thus far). I do not like they made the max distance btw characters smaller AND implemented the roll mechanic. If it was the same size as inj 1, at least they would have to work there way to ~half screen before this becomes a threat.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

In REOs video he punishes the roll but it's kind of a preemptive punish. You have GOT to be ready for that shit.

are you talking about the startup? bc you can still hit the character during the dash. The mb roll does not start until they are into the dash animations.

 

[JDM]

are you talking about the startup? bc you can still hit the character during the dash. The mb roll does not start until they are into the dash animations.

At ~1:50 he hits supergirl out of the startup (might be what you're referring to but this is post flash so I assume it's not invin on startup)

and like 3:50 it takes him about 3 tries but he punishes it after the roll is complete with f2

 

[SaltShaker]

At ~1:50 he hits supergirl out of the startup (might be what you're referring to but this is post flash so I assume it's not invin on startup)

and like 3:50 it takes him about 3 tries but he punishes it after the roll is complete with f2

This video is more of a confirmation on why it might be a problem. Two top players in the isolation of practicing together can barely punish the role when they are standing there trying to punish it. Imagine in actual match pace.

I feel like either the recovery needs to be increased, it needs to be slower, or it stays the same but covers less distance.

In it's current form it's a huge detriment to zoning. No need to be politically correct.

 

[JDM]

This video is more of a confirmation on why it might be a problem. Two top players in the isolation of practicing together can barely punish the role when they are standing there trying to punish it. Imagine in actual match pace.

I feel like either the recovery needs to be increased, it needs to be slower, or it stays the same but covers less distance.

In it's current form it's a huge detriment to zoning. No need to be politically correct.

definitely not defending it I wholeheartedly agree with you. Just putting information out there.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

This video is more of a confirmation on why it might be a problem. Two top players in the isolation of practicing together can barely punish the role when they are standing there trying to punish it. Imagine in actual match pace.

I feel like either the recovery needs to be increased, it needs to be slower, or it stays the same but covers less distance.

In it's current form it's a huge detriment to zoning. No need to be politically correct.

We have to be PC so it doesn't come across as bitching. A good objective discussion hopefully draws more attention :/. I'm really happy with the discussion so far.

 

[REDRUM]

i love it... i love how this game how the most defensive options around... it costs meter so im cool with it..

 

[SaltShaker]

definitely not defending it I wholeheartedly agree with you. Just putting information out there.

We have to be PC so it doesn't come across as bitching. A good objective discussion hopefully draws more attention :/. I'm really happy with the discussion so far.

One thing I'm wondering about the MB roll as a defensive tool to counter the offensive roll. Since it cost a bar and the recovery is silly, if they roll towards you your reaction is to roll away. It costs you both one bar but in a way you are resetting the position. If they needed the meter now they are 3/4 away again with a bar less.

Obviously I can't mess around with it atm but something for you beta guys to play around with defensively.

 

[Basic Stupidity]

The beta is out and some people have it, some people do not. Thank the LORD I was finally able to get a code My initial impression is that this is a mix btw injustice 1 and MKX. I love the injustice series more than any other game I have played including SF.

Since it was announced, I have been tremendously concerned about the MB roll and what that does to zoning/pace control. Some of my fears were confirmed in my initial session with the beta. I am not sure the risk/reward is intact here. Remarkably, the MB dash/roll can also be used defensively. I have some suggestions on how to balance it a bit while making it serve its purpose to casual/tournament players.

My initial concerns were "they added a run button to injustice". I like the pace/speed of injustice 1 so adding a mechanic such as this was not favorable for my style of play. Many of the veterans cringed when they saw this. Imagine zoning in injustice 1if this mechanic existed. If sinestro tossed a fear blast and someone guessed it with the MB roll... they would get a full combo punish from full screen. Basically, everyone would have had batgirls teleport. Imagine lex with this mechanic.

Some of my fear was a result of seeing the recovery of the MB roll. In the previous game play trailers, it appeared to recover extremely fast and this has now been confirmed in the Beta. It has very few frames of recovery from the end animation of the roll. You can easily test this by doing the MB roll then holding up. It is the closest thing to a run button I can possibly imagine.

Risk reward does not appear to be intact in that for one bar you either fully punish a projectile from full screen or safely close the distance without fear of punishment. Disclaimer here that I was not able to test it as well as I would have liked, specifically its physical damage inv.

I will acknowledge the move can be used defensively in that you can escape corners if you were able to create a little space. It could possibly add depth to a character like aquaman's already great defense and give him a free way out of the corner in addition to a grounded combo breaker and now air teching (in injustice 1 a strategy was to launch aqua so he couldn't aqua shield). There is potential that it could help aquaman style play/defense but hurt traditional zoning.

What we know. Would like @REO to weigh in here as well.
- cost one bar
- just just under full screen
- little to no recovery
- the MB does not start until the end of a dash animation so you can still punish the dash/startup prior to the roll.
- cannot be used as a wake up
- appears to be fully projectile invincible
- its physical damage invincibility has not been full tested yet. hearing different things at this point
- when done at the right ranges it can cause attempted check/punishes to face the wrong way bc the MB roll crossing you up
- possible ways to deal with it could be to neutral jump if you think it is coming or buffer d1 to a special it the roll ends up not having physical damage inv

My major suggestions are to make the roll cost two bars, not be throw inv and/or have some recovery. Thinking about the purpose of the move (i think i am in the devs head here but I could be wrong) it is designed to help novice players get passed zoning and to speed up game play. In novice play the added recovery will not likely have a huge effect of outcomes. Keeping the purpose of the move in mind, it should stay as a way to punish zoning. If done pre-emptively/read or on reaction (see super man jump, MB roll, punish his air laser example) but if the zoner baits it out he should get a check, throw or punish... similar to the balance of batgirls teleport. In my opinion the most fun fighting games are ones that allow different character archetypes to shine. By balancing the MB roll a bit, that can help keep variable play styles in the top 8s. I do not want the roll to be bad but I do want to be able to punish it if I read it is coming.

Summery of suggestions:
- cost two bars
and/or
- not throw inv, possibly widen the throwable hurt box during the roll
and/or
- add some recovery
and/or
- slow the speed of the roll

It already is full combo punishable.
It's not a 'free getin' it costs 1 bar and is unsafe

I'm fine with them making the roll being able to be punished with a throw but it should not be made weaker. You said it yourself, the game is at its best when different character archetypes all get a chance to be good. In injustice it's no question that zoning dominates the game and the mb roll is what enables rushdown characters the means to possibly win. I see nothing wrong with the roll

 

[Basic Stupidity]

One thing I'm wondering about the MB roll as a defensive tool to counter the offensive roll. Since it cost a bar and the recovery is silly, if they roll towards you your reaction is to roll away. It costs you both one bar but in a way you are resetting the position. If they needed the meter now they are 3/4 away again with a bar less.

Obviously I can't mess around with it atm but something for you beta guys to play around with defensively.

Seems like a simple and good counter for zoners I will try this out

 

[CrazyFingers]

One thing I'm wondering about the MB roll as a defensive tool to counter the offensive roll. Since it cost a bar and the recovery is silly, if they roll towards you your reaction is to roll away. It costs you both one bar but in a way you are resetting the position. If they needed the meter now they are 3/4 away again with a bar less.

Obviously I can't mess around with it atm but something for you beta guys to play around with defensively.

This so much. There is a ton that we just don't know about the meta of the game, reacting with a roll back isn't even something I thought of and it's a good counter to the roll. If you're playing a zoner and your opponent NEEDS to get in, and on reaction to a forward roll you back roll, they might think twice about rolling since they just traded a bar with the zoner they're trying to get in on, who is most likely building more meter than the aggressor.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Fox talking about mb rolls on twitter. Seems to think it's punishable. Need to test more tonight.

 

[JDM]

It already is full combo punishable.
It's not a 'free getin' it costs 1 bar and is unsafe

I'm fine with them making the roll being able to be punished with a throw but it should not be made weaker. You said it yourself, the game is at its best when different character archetypes all get a chance to be good. In injustice it's no question that zoning dominates the game and the mb roll is what enables rushdown characters the means to possibly win. I see nothing wrong with the roll

Well yeah it's punishable if you do it when the opponent expects it and is basically in the BEST position to punish you. It won't happen like that.

I'm pretty sure you'd be able to see superman jump, walk up a bit, wait for him to air laser, MB roll on reaction and anti air or combo him on his recovery on the ground.

Like I'm just imagining how different Injustice 1 would be with this in it. Even a perfectly tiger knee'd Oa's rocket by lantern would probably get punished by this roll, that's how strong it is looking. I could be wrong because I don't have a code but this is me just eyeballing it.