Discussion The Dilemma of Armor Attacks

[DR.Innuendo]

Everyone always gets on to me about calling it a grenade.

I know the bnb you just didn't say low bomb after the net.

Does that work if they were grounded? If they are grounded I think they have a gap. However I think in the patch they said something along the lines of airborne people who are netted will act more like they were grounded and netted maybe that's what they meant.

Either way this is really the wrong thread for this discussion in all honesty

agreed we can take it into pm but i think we both understand and agree with eachother. yeah only works if they are in net and just start to drop, the moment they ground or land, they can armor, thats why you gotta time it perfect to hit right after feet touch the ground. with B1 being 22 frames a bit harder than the old 18 frames startup, but its a world better than timing 35 frame startup B2.

 

[God Confirm]

EDIT: You can get a hard to blockable guaranteed that doesn't allow armor but it's a little easier to block and not as instantaneous

tell me bout this plz

 

[Sultani]

I would like to skip the introduction to my argument and immediately get to the point. The "one size fits all" approach to launching armor attacks is a flawed mentality that certain individuals in this community have ignorantly been promoting since Mortal Kombat 9, and I was sad to read the patch notes and observe that NRS had finally conceded. While Sonya's EX cartwheel in Mortal Kombat 9 and Tremor's pre-patch EX low stone shatter are questionable launching armor attacks, the majority of pre-patch launching armor attacks in Mortal Kombat X were not questionable. They were perfectly balanced moves from a gameplay perspective. In reality, nothing was wrong with Johnny Cage's EX nut punch, Kano's EX ball, Kung Lao's EX spin, Predator's EX stab, Reptile's EX claw, etc. All of these launching armor attacks were unsafe on block. If you blocked them, the player was able to perform a combo that usually did around 30% of meter-less damage. If they hit, the player was able to perform a combo that usually did no more than 30% of damage. The risk versus reward ratio was fair, balanced, and rational.

The unintended consequence of the universal changes to launching armor attacks are as follows from my limited time of playing and observing the new version of the game.

1. Offensive options, at least in certain match ups, are better than they were pre-patch. Many characters' armor moves only deal about 10-15% of damage, which the aggressor can more or less ignore.

2. Characters who relied on launching armor attacks as a primary strategy might have become much worse (i.e., Balanced Kenshi and Crystalline Tremor). EX rising karma for Kenshi and EX low stone shatter for Tremor are by and large entirely worthless moves now.

3. The characters with the currently best armor attacks in the game, namely Ermac and Kitana, initially appear to be very strong characters. Whoever has access to the best defensive options in Mortal Kombat X will likely end up a top tier character due to the offensive nature of the game.

I am personally uncertain where this new version of the game is any better than the last one. I would like the game to be better. I want the game to be better. However, I think the manner in which launching armor attacks have been managed is a failure. The manner also lacks variety and promotes "more of the same" gameplay that we have already seen a thousand times in the past.

I normally don't agree with m2dave... but he nailed it here.

Number one is my exact issue with this. There's no risk for just running at someone and pressuring. The aggressor gets to just ignore the possibility of getting blown up for over committing because there are no such things as invincible start up reversals that lead to any respectable damage anymore.

The 50/50 meta that everyone bitched about got buffed. If you get HKD once, there's no way you are getting up without spending a meter and risking getting blown up anyway.

It almost seems as if these changes were implemented without any sort of consideration as to how armored reversals were used defensively. Not so much being entirely useful all the time because they were always punishable, but the threat of them being an option at least kept aggressors on their toes.

Now they don't even have to worry about that? If sonya knocks you down, good luck getting up.

there is a reason why pretty much every single other game has invincible startup frames on non metered wakeups. A change like this requires invincible startups. It just does.

 

[tatterbug4]

Everyone always gets on to me about calling it a grenade.

I know the bnb you just didn't say low bomb after the net.

Does that work if they were grounded? If they are grounded I think they have a gap. However I think in the patch they said something along the lines of airborne people who are netted will act more like they were grounded and netted maybe that's what they meant.

Either way this is really the wrong thread for this discussion in all honesty

tell me bout this plz

Timing is just tight. Get opponent in airborne net situation. Throw bomb under them. B1 as they touch the ground. If you get it just right I don't think you can armor. I tried it with Kitana ex throat slash like a dozen times. I'm pretty sure it's un-armorable

 

[GLoRToR]

I would like to skip the introduction to my argument and immediately get to the point. The "one size fits all" approach to launching armor attacks is a flawed mentality that certain individuals in this community have ignorantly been promoting since Mortal Kombat 9, and I was sad to read the patch notes and observe that NRS had finally conceded. While Sonya's EX cartwheel in Mortal Kombat 9 and Tremor's pre-patch EX low stone shatter are questionable launching armor attacks, the majority of pre-patch launching armor attacks in Mortal Kombat X were not questionable. They were perfectly balanced moves from a gameplay perspective. In reality, nothing was wrong with Johnny Cage's EX nut punch, Kano's EX ball, Kung Lao's EX spin, Predator's EX stab, Reptile's EX claw, etc. All of these launching armor attacks were unsafe on block. If you blocked them, the player was able to perform a combo that usually did around 30% of meter-less damage. If they hit, the player was able to perform a combo that usually did no more than 30% of damage. The risk versus reward ratio was fair, balanced, and rational.

The unintended consequence of the universal changes to launching armor attacks are as follows from my limited time of playing and observing the new version of the game.

1. Offensive options, at least in certain match ups, are better than they were pre-patch. Many characters' armor moves only deal about 10-15% of damage, which the aggressor can more or less ignore.

2. Characters who relied on launching armor attacks as a primary strategy might have become much worse (i.e., Balanced Kenshi and Crystalline Tremor). EX rising karma for Kenshi and EX low stone shatter for Tremor are by and large entirely worthless moves now.

3. The characters with the currently best armor attacks in the game, namely Ermac and Kitana, initially appear to be very strong characters. Whoever has access to the best defensive options in Mortal Kombat X will likely end up a top tier character due to the offensive nature of the game.

I am personally uncertain where this new version of the game is any better than the last one. I would like the game to be better. I want the game to be better. However, I think the manner in which launching armor attacks have been managed is a failure. The manner also lacks variety and promotes "more of the same" gameplay that we have already seen a thousand times in the past.

I feel this update has not addressed the right problems and not in the right way. It would be nice if the actual top players sat down with Paulo for the next patch and all tried to be as selfless about their own characters too, as possible to tackle issues.
Kitana's armor is fine by game standards but it really is a stupid move.

 

[trufenix]

2 days. lets tear it down.

 

[Rude]

The safety of launchers was never an issue for me.

The guessing game when your opponent is negative but has a bar to mash out a launcher was, at least to me. There were even times when the opponent would run at you, you'd throw out a poke to defend your space and stop the run, and they throw out an armored launcher.

That could just be me, but these are the reasons I'm glad they're gone. Well...not "gone" but you know what I mean.

 

[God Confirm]

Timing is just tight. Get opponent in airborne net situation. Throw bomb under them. B1 as they touch the ground. If you get it just right I don't think you can armor. I tried it with Kitana ex throat slash like a dozen times. I'm pretty sure it's un-armorable

ok so you can do that like after a 15% combo, and then can't net again

thats not set-play thats just a mid combo reset

 

[Sultani]

The safety of launchers was never an issue for me.

The guessing game when your opponent is negative but has a bar to mash out a launcher was, at least to me. There were even times when the opponent would run at you, you'd throw out a poke to defend your space and stop the run, and they throw out an armored launcher.

That could just be me, but these are the reasons I'm glad they're gone. Well...not "gone" but you know what I mean.

Think about defensive options though.

Regular wakeups / reversals weren't given invincible startups in this game because every character had punishable armored launchers as reversal threats.

Now they dont, but regular reversals still dont have invincible start up frames.

The idea of armor still feels poorly implemented and extremely experimental.

In MK9, it felt like they just tossed armor in on some moved with no rhyme or reason.

In mkx they just gave it to everyone, and now they just took it away from everyone without addressing a gigantic defensive problem this creates.

Its ok for some ex launchers to have arnor and others not to. There just needs to be reasoning involved for which ones have what.

Just taking it away all together is lazy

 

[God Confirm]

if armor is a "defensive" option, taking your turn back, getting a knockdown and spacing your opponent are all the main things you should expect from a defensive option, and this is what they give you.

Expecting it to convert for a full combo and a third of your opponent's life is where it starts to become an offensive strategy.

What people mean is, that they want to be able to open their opponents up while it's not even their turn, aka while defending.



Adapt.


And this is coming from someone currently maining someone who lost one of the best armored launchers in the game.

 

[omooba]

I am personally uncertain where this new version of the game is any better than the last one

I was the same until I anti-aired alien with kenshi's standing one. I can deal with all the bullshit as long as anti-airing isn't stupid
Also in your post you missed the character who relied on lancing armor the most. Lackey. Personally I think he's the worst character in the game

 

[omooba]

if armor is a "defensive" option, taking your turn back, getting a knockdown and spacing your opponent is 3 defensive things.

Expecting it to convert for a full combo and a third of your opponent's life is where it starts to become an offensive strategy.

What people mean is, that they want to be able to open their opponents up while it's not even their turn, aka while defending.



Adapt.


And this is coming from someone currently maining the character who lost more from the armor nerf than any other character.

Who do you main?

 

[God Confirm]

Who do you main?

hes in your avatar

edit: wrestler specific tho

 

[ismael4790]

if armor is a "defensive" option, taking your turn back, getting a knockdown and spacing your opponent are all the main things you should expect from a defensive option, and this is what they give you.

Expecting it to convert for a full combo and a third of your opponent's life is where it starts to become an offensive strategy.

What people mean is, that they want to be able to open their opponents up while it's not even their turn, aka while defending.



Adapt.


And this is coming from someone currently maining the character who lost more from the armor nerf than any other character.

Who you main now? EDIT: I saw, Jax. He's not the one that lost more, at all.

By the way, if the problem is damage, why 1 bar armor launchers scaling more is not an option?

For example, if the move lead to 30%, make it scale so the combo doesn't get more than 24 or something.

Just removing tha armor is the most radical change I can think of, and hurts defense as many are pointing out.

 

[Sultani]

I understand many players are angered at the loss of their armor launcher (mainly Kenshi players) because for some characters it was their main form of a consistent anti-air. But getting rid of armor launchers that were rampant like pieces of candy, was the better choice, IMO.

Campaigning to get one bar armor launchers back is not the right way to go about this. Instead we should be focusing on the problems these characters have that their one bar armor launchers can no longer sugar coat. Kenshi should be given a very viable and consistent anti-air in Balanced, which seems to be the main issue from many of the complaints. Or some of the overpowering and very difficult to anti-air jump attacks should be rightfully normalized.

I do agree with you that offense is definitely better in some cases now for many match ups. But I do think we should all stop focusing so much on trying to make armor better or pushing it as the solution to some of the core issues with the game. Let's instead try to make core defensive options in the game more viable at a higher level for certain characters. Things like backdashes, anti-airs, less chip for certain attacks, block breakers, etc. etc. should be looked into being improved instead of using ARMOR as one of the staple formulas. NRS can possibly implement a brand new defensive mechanic of some sort as well.

Armor is busted, and I think trying to balance a game around something as polarizing as armor is not the way to go. Having weaker or less attacks with armor would be better than having a game with overpowered armor attacks that dictate way too many things and result in a less enjoyable experience.

What about *GASP!* Invincible start up frames on regular non metered reversal options.

there's a reason why those are a thing in every other 2D fighter.

 

[God Confirm]

What about *GASP!* Invincible start up frames on regular non metered reversal options.

there's a reason why those are a thing in every other 2D fighter.

there's also a reason why they aren't in this fighter

i dont see how that suggestion would solve anything

 

[Sultani]

there's also a reason why they aren't in this fighter

i dont see how that suggestion would solve anything

They weren't in this fighter because everyone had armored launcher reversals.

Now they don't. There's a reason why they aren't in this game? what is that reason exactly? There isn't one anymore.

It's not a hard idea that an aggressor doesn't need to respect your limited reversal options as much as they had to before this change.

After a HKD, explain to me how you are going to get up without using meter. Explain why an opponent wouldn't just run up and 50/50 you. The threat of your reversal isn't there anymore.

You don't see how invicible startups addresses that?

 

[dennycascade]

And this is coming from someone currently maining the character who lost more from the armor nerf than any other character.

You main Lackey?

 

[Rude]

Think about defensive options though.

Regular wakeups / reversals weren't given invincible startups in this game because every character had punishable armored launchers as reversal threats.

Now they dont, but regular reversals still dont have invincible start up frames.

The idea of armor still feels poorly implemented and extremely experimental.

In MK9, it felt like they just tossed armor in on some moved with no rhyme or reason.

In mkx they just gave it to everyone, and now they just took it away from everyone without addressing a gigantic defensive problem this creates.

Its ok for some ex launchers to have arnor and others not to. There just needs to be reasoning involved for which ones have what.

Just taking it away all together is lazy

Why can't people use their advancing normals, pokes, spacing for defense? If you hit someone running, they lose their stamina.

Everyone complained about the abundancy of launchers and now they're gone. They're saying that offense is still strong, but several characters have had their overheads toned down, eliminating powerful 50/50s.

NRS seems to be giving players what they want, and it's still not enough.

 

[Rude]

They weren't in this fighter because everyone had armored launcher reversals.

Now they don't. There's a reason why they aren't in this game? what is that reason exactly? There isn't one anymore.

It's not a hard idea that an aggressor doesn't need to respect your limited reversal options as much as they had to before this change.

After a HKD, explain to me how you are going to get up without using meter. Explain why an opponent wouldn't just run up and 50/50 you. The threat of your reversal isn't there anymore.

You don't see how invicible startups addresses that?

Except all those characters with 2 hits of armor moves.

More importantly, after a hkd, you could delay wake up. Their option whiffs and you get a turn.

Or wake up backdash.

In one thread we have people saying Kitana and Ermac armor is too strong and in another they're saying they want it back?

Makes. No. Sense.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

Idk on what you guys are seriously this is ridiculous they say they want more defense they are given 2 hit of armor moves then complain that they don't launch. The 2 hit of armor moves can be argued to be better than the meter less reversal in other games since a lot of them are safe.IDK what to tell u guys armor launcher are not the Solution to your problems you have to find something else

 

[Sultani]

Why can't people use their advancing normals, pokes, spacing for defense? If you hit someone running, they lose their stamina.

Everyone complained about the abundancy of launchers and now they're gone. They're saying that offense is still strong, but several characters have had their overheads toned down, eliminating powerful 50/50s.

NRS seems to be giving players what they want, and it's still not enough.

You're talking about neutral. I'm talking about wakeups.

Admittedly I haven't been around here much.. I didn't know armored reversals were something people complained about.

 

[Sultani]

Except all those characters with 2 hits of armor moves.

More importantly, after a hkd, you could delay wake up. Their option whiffs and you get a turn.

Or wake up backdash.

In one thread we have people saying Kitana and Ermac armor is too strong and in another they're saying they want it back?

Makes. No. Sense.

All valid points.

I think about a game like street fighter.. Where if you knock someone down and try to keep pressuring, there's always the threat that you're gonna get wakeup DPed. What if that threat didn't even exist without meter?

I don't see how anyone would be in favor of something like that. there are characters where this is the reality. In MKX it's now a reality for everyone. I'm probably not going to be convinced that this is a good idea.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

All valid points.

I think about a game like street fighter.. Where if you knock someone down and try to keep pressuring, there's always the threat that you're gonna get wakeup DPed. What if that threat didn't even exist without meter?

I don't see how anyone would be in favor of something like that. there are characters where this is the reality. In MKX it's now a reality for everyone. I'm probably not going to be convinced that this is a good idea.

You mean those game where everyone s super defensive option a.k.a do is punishable and does low damage instead of having 2 hit of armor and be safe

 

[ismael4790]

NRS seems to be giving players what they want, and it's still not enough.

Nobody asked for all the characters in the roster to get a universal armor launcher (punishable or not) removal that didn't take into account the particular gameplan of each character, and if someone did, i call him stupid right now.

A good patch treats each character individually, looking the good points and the flaws and tries to make him/her better. A bad patch applies the same rule to everyone without thought.