Discussion The Dilemma of Armor Attacks

[M2Dave]

I would like to skip the introduction to my argument and immediately get to the point. The "one size fits all" approach to launching armor attacks is a flawed mentality that certain individuals in this community have ignorantly been promoting since Mortal Kombat 9, and I was sad to read the patch notes and observe that NRS had finally conceded. While Sonya's EX cartwheel in Mortal Kombat 9 and Tremor's pre-patch EX low stone shatter are questionable launching armor attacks, the majority of pre-patch launching armor attacks in Mortal Kombat X were not questionable. They were perfectly balanced moves from a gameplay perspective. In reality, nothing was wrong with Johnny Cage's EX nut punch, Kano's EX ball, Kung Lao's EX spin, Predator's EX stab, Reptile's EX claw, etc. All of these launching armor attacks were unsafe on block. If you blocked them, the player was able to perform a combo that usually did around 30% of meter-less damage. If they hit, the player was able to perform a combo that usually did no more than 30% of damage. The risk versus reward ratio was fair, balanced, and rational.

The unintended consequence of the universal changes to launching armor attacks are as follows from my limited time of playing and observing the new version of the game.

1. Offensive options, at least in certain match ups, are better than they were pre-patch. Many characters' armor moves only deal about 10-15% of damage, which the aggressor can more or less ignore.

2. Characters who relied on launching armor attacks as a primary strategy might have become much worse (i.e., Balanced Kenshi and Crystalline Tremor). EX rising karma for Kenshi and EX low stone shatter for Tremor are by and large entirely worthless moves now.

3. The characters with the currently best armor attacks in the game, namely Ermac and Kitana, initially appear to be very strong characters. Whoever has access to the best defensive options in Mortal Kombat X will likely end up a top tier character due to the offensive nature of the game.

I am personally uncertain where this new version of the game is any better than the last one. I would like the game to be better. I want the game to be better. However, I think the manner in which launching armor attacks have been managed is a failure. The manner also lacks variety and promotes "more of the same" gameplay that we have already seen a thousand times in the past.

 

[st9rm]

2. Characters who relied on launching armor attacks as a primary strategy might have become much worse (i.e., Balanced Kenshi and Crystalline Tremor). EX rising karma for Kenshi and EX low stone shatter for Tremor are by and large entirely worthless moves now.

so is tremor abysmal again ?

obviously a lot of chars got hurt by these changes, and just need to adjust their playstyle
we will see how the new meta turns out, free armored launchers shouldnt be in the game in the first place
edit:
also, they did tone down +frames a lot, and with the increased cost of stamina, i think the whole armored attacks not launching, is a welcome change

 

[REO]

I understand many players are angered at the loss of their armor launcher (mainly Kenshi players) because for some characters it was their main form of a consistent anti-air. But getting rid of armor launchers that were rampant like pieces of candy, was the better choice, IMO.

Campaigning to get one bar armor launchers back is not the right way to go about this. Instead we should be focusing on the problems these characters have that their one bar armor launchers can no longer sugar coat. Kenshi should be given a very viable and consistent anti-air in Balanced, which seems to be the main issue from many of the complaints. Or some of the overpowering and very difficult to anti-air jump attacks should be rightfully normalized.

I do agree with you that offense is definitely better in some cases now for many match ups. But I do think we should all stop focusing so much on trying to make armor better or pushing it as the solution to some of the core issues with the game. Let's instead try to make core defensive options in the game more viable at a higher level for certain characters. Things like backdashes, anti-airs, less chip for certain attacks, block breakers, etc. etc. should be looked into being improved instead of using ARMOR as one of the staple formulas. NRS can possibly implement a brand new defensive mechanic of some sort as well.

Armor is busted, and I think trying to balance a game around something as polarizing as armor is not the way to go. Having weaker or less attacks with armor would be better than having a game with overpowered armor attacks that dictate way too many things and result in a less enjoyable experience.

 

[DDutchguy]

You make some pretty good points, but other changes in this patch also have effect on the current meta of the game. Yes launching armor made offense stronger, but the stamina nerfs balance it out (at least to a certain extent).

Balanced Kenshi and Crystalline Tremor being worse now than before is something I'm still a bit iffy on. We all need to adjust to the changes and perhaps once we do, these characters will turn out alright.

Edit: A lot of + frames were also normalized, thus making you less reliant on using armor to get out of sticky situations. This buffed poking your way out of pressure which is, for all intents and purposes, a defensive option.

 

[DR.Innuendo]

Way to early to say the meta does not work imo. And I have seen nothing but good change so far. I also disagree that Tremor and all other armor you stated was questionable launching armor. You said it was questionable because it was negative on block? Well that's not logical! Armor that launches if its Positive, safe, or Punishable, does not matter or change that it launches and has armor. In my mind its dumb its just was another 50/50 to worry about that also did much more than 30% than you stated. I suck with Tremor and I can lab right now and get much more than 30% off it and probably can get some nice dirt to follow with advantage to boot.

It was dumb for all characters and I'm glad the ones that retained it have to spend 2 bars to do so. and I hope its never in anyone's favor to double meter for it. I don't like to guess on everything and launching armor was just another guess to the multiple guess situations 3-29 had. Love the changes so far and wouldn't go back. I do need much more time though to get any idea of how much all the changes effected the game, and hope we get at least a couple months to test before rushing to patch stuff we fully don't understand.​

 

[shura30]

They were perfectly balanced moves from a gameplay perspective. In reality, nothing was wrong with Johnny Cage's EX nut punch, Kano's EX ball, Kung Lao's EX spin, Predator's EX stab, Reptile's EX claw, etc. All of these launching armor attacks were unsafe on block. If you blocked them, the player was able to perform a combo that usually did around 30% of meter-less damage.

wrong

aggressive characters had launching armored moves forcing situations in which the opponent, after blocking a -4 ~ -6 move or on wakeup, went to press buttons just to be launched and put back in the same situation again
sure, you could've set up bait but it's not the same effort/reward especially when there were fast oh/lows

now they work pretty much like a get off me button and most can still launch using resources

 

[DR.Innuendo]

I understand many players are angered at the loss of their armor launcher (mainly Kenshi players) because for some characters it was their main form of a consistent anti-air. But getting rid of armor launchers that were rampant like pieces of candy, was the better choice, IMO.

Campaigning to get one bar armor launchers back is not the right way to go about this. Instead we should be focusing on the problems these characters have that their one bar armor launchers can no longer sugar coat. Kenshi should be given a very viable and consistent anti-air in Balanced, which seems to be the main issue from many of the complaints. Or some of the overpowering and very difficult to anti-air jump attacks should be rightfully normalized.

I do agree with you that offense is definitely better in some cases now for many match ups. But I do think we should all stop focusing so much on trying to make armor better or pushing it as the solution to some of the core issues with the game. Let's instead try to make core defensive options in the game more viable at a higher level for certain characters. Things like backdashes, anti-airs, less chip for certain attacks, block breakers, etc. etc. should be looked into being improved instead of using ARMOR as one of the staple formulas. NRS can possibly implement a brand new defensive mechanic of some sort as well.

Armor is busted, and I think trying to balance a game around something as polarizing as armor is not the way to go. Having weaker or less attacks with armor would be better than having a game with overpowered armor attacks that dictate way too many things and result in a less enjoyable experience.

couldn't have said it better myself

 

[tatterbug4]

I don't think one size fits all, some characters are just meant to have a armored launcher you know? it just depends on the character.

Just like how I hear all this talk about how all these characters shouldn't have these jump ins blablabla. Obviously not everyone should be like that, But in all honesty that depends on the character maybe they were intended to rule the sky.

Also what is cyrax gonna do with all these characters having 2 hits of armor? His set ups sound horrible now.

I like what they did to mkx with this patch a lot but that's not to say they didn't think this entirely through.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

Yes, I had a problem w armored launchers.

The philosophy I follow is that invincible/armored reversals should ALL be punishable on block. This is still something NRS doesn't follow, but definitely a step in the right direction.

 

[DR.Innuendo]

I don't think one size fits all, some characters are just meant to have a armored launcher you know? it just depends on the character.

Just like how I hear all this talk about how all these characters shouldn't have these jump ins blablabla. Obviously not everyone should be like that, But in all honesty that depends on the character maybe they were intended to rule the sky.

Also what is cyrax gonna do with all these characters having 2 hits of armor? His set ups sound horrible now.

I like what they did to mkx with this patch a lot but that's not to say they didn't think this entirely through.

Yeah i used Cyrax from time to time, he is a personal favorite of mine, not a main though. I seen that too. but even though he is not Cyrax anymore i dare say. He is still strong in this meta. sadly it seems he won't be able to HTB or Setplay like Cyrax always have, they did ruin that aspect of Cyrax now. But he will still have Resets that are very hard to armor like: F13 xx EX BuzzSaw RC B2 RC 4 xx Net Dash forward B1 F43 xx EX Air Grab 4 xx Net DF2 F43 F43 Air Grab 55%-60% almost 1-5 frame link where i have lighted in red!

 

[DR.Innuendo]

Yes, I had a problem w armored launchers.

The philosophy I follow is that invincible/armored reversals should ALL be punishable on block. This is still something NRS doesn't follow, but definitely a step in the right direction.

i get where you are coming from, but i feel its better to just keep all armored launchers out and punishable on block. they offer to much advantage and fear when they're supposed to be negative.

 

[B. Shazzy]

It should be obvious more armor isn't the answer to making this game or any game better. In a lot of ways, armored launchers were oh/low dps that lead to full combo and oki. Who likes playing around that everytime an opponent happens to have a bar, really? Honestly when I hear "give me armor back" it translates to "I want to be able to do low stone shatter or ex rising karma after - frames". Stealing turns isn't defense to me.

With armored launchers gone, now the blinders are off and you can see where this game's issues really lie and it's not pretty but still an improvement than the last version.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

It should be obvious more armor isn't the answer to making this game or any game better. In a lot of ways, armored launchers were oh/low dps that lead to full combo and oki. Who likes playing around that everytime an opponent happens to have a bar, really? Honestly when I hear "give me armor back" it translates to "I want to be able to do low stone shatter or ex rising karma after - frames". Stealing turns isn't defense to me.

With armored launchers gone, now the blinders are off and you can see where this game's issues really lie and it's not pretty but still an improvement than the last version.

Couldn't agree w this more.

Personally I feel ALL armor attacks should be punishable on block. That way there's a balanced risk/reward to them. If their plus or safe w 2 or more hits of armor then what's the risk?

 

[God Confirm]

Campaigning to get one bar armor launchers back is not the right way to go about this. Instead we should be focusing on the problems these characters have that their one bar armor launchers can no longer sugar coat. Kenshi should be given a very viable and consistent anti-air in Balanced, which seems to be the main issue from many of the complaints.

he has one

https://twitter.com/bambamguitar/status/783358479956312064

they just want an armored launcher, unfortunately

It should be obvious more armor isn't the answer to making this game or any game better. In a lot of ways, armored launchers were oh/low dps that lead to full combo and oki. Who likes playing around that everytime an opponent happens to have a bar, really? Honestly when I hear "give me armor back" it translates to "I want to be able to do low stone shatter or ex rising karma after - frames". Stealing turns isn't defense to me.

With armored launchers gone, now the blinders are off and you can see where this game's issues really lie and it's not pretty but still an improvement than the last version.

fully agree. u playing again?

 

[ismael4790]

Absolutely agree with OP.

 

[tatterbug4]

Yeah i used Cyrax from time to time, he is a personal favorite of mine, not a main though. I seen that too. but even though he is not Cyrax anymore i dare say. He is still strong in this meta. sadly it seems he won't be able to HTB or Setplay like Cyrax always have, they did ruin that aspect of Cyrax now. But he will still have Resets that are very hard to armor like: F13 xx EX BuzzSaw RC B2 RC 4 xx Net Dash forward B1 F43 xx EX Air Grab 4 xx Net DF2 F43 F43 Air Grab 55%-60% almost 1-5 frame link where i have lighted in red!

I get what youre coming from I think. I believe you mean b2 because b1 doesn't juggle without a grenade.
If you mean b2 that can be reacted too because it's so slow.

But I think if you time it correctly you can get a grenade and a back 1 to hit before its even possible to armor. This would only work after nets though. I'll have to lab it.

 

[Wigy]

Certain characters it was a perma armour spam fest, i mean you can punish but it really took way from the meta. Basically worked out with a lot of yolo gambles. Frustating to loose to and boring to win against.

I prefer this, its closer to mk9 meta.

Playing kotal and jax turned into 'when is this mofo guna do and armoured overhead 1/3 screen laucher'

 

[DR.Innuendo]

I get what youre coming from I think. I believe you mean b2 because b1 doesn't juggle without a grenade.
If you mean b2 that can be reacted too because it's so slow.

But I think if you time it correctly you can get a grenade and a back 1 to hit before its even possible to armor. This would only work after nets though. I'll have to lab it.

i mean B1. they are in net when they drop, you do a B1 over the low bomb that is set, just do the combo and you will understand what i mean. its a standard BnB without this combo cyrax is shit and has always used this for easy reset thats hard to block and armor and boost his shitty damage. you can dash forward/step forward/walf forward to be right over low bomb, B1 delayed and it will hit just before the low explodes. and no B2 is very very very slow, and in that combo can be used , but i prefer B1 over B2 its easier to get the 1- 2 frame link consistantly.

and what is this about Grenade? he has bombs you are not talking about Sonya are you? im talking about Cyrax.

 

[ShArp]

EX low stone shatter for Tremor are by and large entirely worthless moves now.

Except it's not because you can still use it to mix people up in more than one string. On top of that, as a Tremor - you have a freakin Flash Parry that gives any of your moves/specials 1 hit armor after you cancel the EX DB2 into run. With it you can literally get armored: wakeups/ reversals, jailing, mixups.

And while you have Flash parry - you want additional armored/safe'ish EX Low Shatter that launches? That's nonsense.

Oh and metallic in Lava skin, without EX Punch parry, also has another, two hit armored parry from EX DB1. So yeah...

Long story short: Adapt.

 

[M2Dave]

I will address specific foolishness such as using EX low shatter as a mix up tool when I get home. However, I would like to note how many players are excited about Cryomancer based on what they have seen from Sonic Fox, yet all he is doing is 50/50 mix ups and command grabs that lead to 50/50 mix ups. What does the community complain about? Ermac's and Kitana's armor attacks because these two characters have the ability to zone and defend. Too many remnants of anti-zoning still exist in this community, but these folks have been masquerading under the umbrella of "no safe armor launchers" and currently "no safe armor period". The reality is that the vast majority of armor attacks, launching or non-launching, have been unsafe in Mortal Kombat X. I challenge all members of the community not to surrender to this propaganda.

 

[ShArp]

I will address specific foolishness such as using EX low shatter as a mix up tool when I get home.

Inb4 "Tremor (Crstl) abysmal now - Part 2" - Yeah, no.

 

[tatterbug4]

i mean B1. they are in net when they drop, you do a B1 over the low bomb that is set, just do the combo and you will understand what i mean. its a standard BnB without this combo cyrax is shit and has always used this for easy reset thats hard to block and armor and boost his shitty damage. you can dash forward/step forward/walf forward to be right over low bomb, B1 delayed and it will hit just before the low explodes. and no B2 is very very very slow, and in that combo can be used , but i prefer B1 over B2 its easier to get the 1- 2 frame link consistantly.

and what is this about Grenade? he has bombs you are not talking about Sonya are you? im talking about Cyrax.

Everyone always gets on to me about calling it a grenade.

I know the bnb you just didn't say low bomb after the net.

Does that work if they were grounded? If they are grounded I think they have a gap. However I think in the patch they said something along the lines of airborne people who are netted will act more like they were grounded and netted maybe that's what they meant.

Either way this is really the wrong thread for this discussion in all honesty

EDIT: You can get a hard to blockable guaranteed that doesn't allow armor but it's a little easier to block and not as instantaneous

 

[M2Dave]

Inb4 "Tremor (Crstl) abysmal now - Part 2" - Yeah, no.

Hm, I was not contemplating it, but you just gave me a great idea. I do think Crystalline is abysmal now. Aftershock is good but probably not top tier good.

 

[DDutchguy]

Hm, I was not contemplating it, but you just gave me a great idea. I do think Crystalline is abysmal now. Aftershock is good but probably not top tier good.

Dave please it's barely been 2 days

 

[ShArp]

Dave please it's barely been 2 days

That's Dave. Cmon, the dude is entertaining as hell some times - I'll give him that. Oh and Tremor is now solid AF.