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MAT: Consensus Top 3 (5/29/16)

I play ShaoJin and Ninjutsu...I use footsie characters...I am now downplaying footsies...but...comparing it to the likes of SFV...where its 90% footsies...MKX relies more on tools...

A perfect example is Shinnok's imposter move steal. He is so good because he steals typically the best move a character has (KJ's MB flip kick for no meter, Cassie's mb gun shots that does 18% chip, and so-on)...that tool can be implemented mid-combo, too.

So that TOOL alone makes him beat Cassie 6-4 if not worse.
It is the tool based on MU (Shinnok vs Cassie), in some MUs, Shinnok steals useless move, right (Takeda, Cage, Sonya, Erron).
 

LaidbackOne

Scrubby nice guy
The point I'm trying to make is that if two characters could apply similar threatening gameplans, but one requires execution and the other does not...should not the second one be considered best, because it can give same results with less effort and more consistently?
Who has pressure compareable to Cage's but without the execution?
 

FinalBoss_FGC

Day -4MONTHS Dual Jin main
It is the tool based on MU (Shinnok vs Cassie), in some MUs, Shinnok steals useless move, right (Takeda, Cage, Sonya, Erron).
Which goes even deeper into my point. The MU vs any of those aren't as good for Shinnok because of what his tool does for him.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I play ShaoJin and Ninjutsu...I use footsie characters...I am now downplaying footsies...but...comparing it to the likes of SFV...where its 90% footsies...MKX relies more on tools...

You are arguing about nothing. All of this stemmed from me saying F3~run cancel was godlike and no character can deal with it. A character having a single tool that NO character can deal with well will instantly put them higher on the tier list because that instantly makes the MU numbers more in his favor than otherwise. Specifically, imagine of Cage couldn't f3~run cancel at all. You instantly don't have to respect that range as much (only d4), his pressure is more basic run cancel like LK...relying on chip damage and then losing your turn unless you use meter, he doesnt get grabs as free and he can not longer push you to the wall by doing 3 f3~run cancels on block or hit. Doesn't that make MUs more even because you don't have to worry about that tool? But that tool exists, therefore dealing with Cage as a whole becomes even more difficult. As much as you want to admit it or not, a single tool in MKX can completely alter a MU.

A perfect example is Shinnok's imposter move steal. He is so good because he steals typically the best move a character has (KJ's MB flip kick for no meter, Cassie's mb gun shots that does 18% chip, and so-on)...that tool can be implemented mid-combo, too.

So that TOOL alone makes him beat Cassie 6-4 if not worse.
You're taking into account what a character has to deal with in F3, but what about what Johnny deals with from the character he's facing? There are a lot of things that can happen before he's in F3 range. To say nothing of moves that occupy more space than F3. Then you factor in a character's ability to keep him out or force him to play their game, etc. There is a LOT of nuance you're just not taking into account.

Comparing a move that an entire character's variation is based on, with varying degrees of effectiveness depending upon what character he's facing to a canceled normal move isn't the same thing at all.

Shinnok doesn't always steal the best move.

Example: He steals Kotal's air grab, not his best move. There are more examples.

And no, I'm not arguing about nothing. I'm sorry if you're having trouble following the value of a match-up based tier list, in which numbers are based on in-depth exploration of how every kit interacts in actual matches, but that's how it works and no, one tool doesn't always decide an entire match number.

There are varying meta levels to a match up. You're talking about level 1 stuff that anyone who understands how A-List Cage works knows.

Anyway, I'll leave this here since we're having a clear breakdown in communication.
 
OK we need to stop here, we all know that tools (all of character tools, plural tool, not singular) determines MU. I just want to say a single F3 cancel cannot guarantee a top 3 for Johnny, you can prove by saying he has many things not only F3 (Stunt double does not have cancel and still high tier) and we can move on. I just want to debate that F3 cancel on whiff does not really make JC A list that high
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
You're taking into account what a character has to deal with in F3, but what about what Johnny deals with from the character he's facing? There are a lot of things that can happen before he's in F3 range. To say nothing of moves that occupy more space than F3. Then you factor in a character's ability to keep him out or force him to play their game, etc. There is a LOT of nuance you're just not taking into account.

Comparing a move that an entire character's variation is based on, with varying degrees of effectiveness depending upon what character he's facing to a canceled normal move isn't the same thing at all.

Shinnok doesn't always steal the best move.

Example: He steals Kotal's air grab, not his best move. There are more examples.

And no, I'm not arguing about nothing. I'm sorry if you're having trouble following the value of a match-up based tier list, in which numbers are based on in-depth exploration of how every kit interacts in actual matches, but that's how it works and no, one tool doesn't always decide an entire match number.

There are varying meta levels to a match up. You're talking about level 1 stuff that anyone who understands how A-List Cage works knows.

Anyway, I'll leave this here since we're having a clear breakdown in communication.
Kotal's grab IS the best move. For Shinnok. But you're on the money though, for instance he steal Jason's armor, predator's invisibility and Takeda's flip (y u no steal the punches .___.)
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Kotal's grab IS the best move. For Shinnok. But you're on the money though, for instance he steal Jason's armor, predator's invisibility and Takeda's flip (y u no steal the punches .___.)
Yeah, I don't recall every move, but you're right about the grab.
 

sinosleep

Kombatant
I may well be ignorant of the facts here, but did Takeda actually receive any buffs or did RedRaptor and Hayatei just kinda show up out of now where and start mollywhopping fools with him? Cause I seem to remember Takeda being shit on and switched from on the regular so it seems like kind of a cop out to all of a sudden call him top tier if he didn't receive major buffs.
 

errormacro7

Official Sonya simp
I may well be ignorant of the facts here, but did Takeda actually receive any buffs or did RedRaptor and Hayatei just kinda show up out of now where and start mollywhopping fools with him? Cause I seem to remember Takeda being shit on and switched from on the regular so it seems like kind of a cop out to all of a sudden call him top tier if he didn't receive major buffs.
He got buffed + pre-XL top tiers got nerfed, so that just moved him up tier-wise greatly.
 

sinosleep

Kombatant
He got buffed + pre-XL top tiers got nerfed, so that just moved him up tier-wise greatly.
I stand corrected then. I haven't followed the game as closely since the whole PC version getting fucked off thing so I knew I might have just missed it but wasn't sure since I was aware of the Mileena buffs.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
I may well be ignorant of the facts here, but did Takeda actually receive any buffs or did RedRaptor and Hayatei just kinda show up out of now where and start mollywhopping fools with him? Cause I seem to remember Takeda being shit on and switched from on the regular so it seems like kind of a cop out to all of a sudden call him top tier if he didn't receive major buffs.
Starting from recent and on down. . .

MKXL Patch Notes 3/1/16

  • Takeda - Down+FP now has 7 startup frames (up from 8)
  • Takeda - Away+BK has increased pushback and is now -5 on block (up from -9)
  • Takeda - Towards+BK is now +9 on block (up from +2)
  • Takeda (Ronin) - Blade Kall and Blade Summon is now -13 on block and only hits once on block or armor (down from -5)
  • Takeda (Ronin) - Away+BP now has 15 startup frames (up from 12)
MKX Patch notes 9/21/15

  • Takeda - Reduced the cancel advantage from Towards+FP,BP,BP+BK by 1 preventing a block trap
  • Takeda - Fixed a bug which would cause the reaction to Tri Kunai to sometimes play in the wrong direction
  • Takeda (Ronin) - Reduced the block cancel advantage of Away+BP,FP,BP+BK by 3 preventing a
  • block trap
  • Takeda (Ronin) - Kool Whip Brutatlity when in Ronin should work more consistently now.
MKX Patch note 8/31/15

  • Takeda – Removed gap in the towards +Fp, bp,bp +bk string
  • Takeda - Adjusted several regular attack collisions to hit more consistently on ducking opponents and in combos
  • Takeda - BP now has 14 startup frames (down from 20) and is now 3 on hit (up from -7)
  • Takeda - Away+FP,FP is now +3 on hit (up from -6)
  • Takeda - BP,FP is now +2 on hit (up from -27)
  • Takeda - Away+BP is now +8 on hit (up from -7)
  • Takeda - Away+BP,FP is now +3 on hit (up from -10)
  • Takeda - Towards+BK now has 20 startup frames (down from 24) and is 2 on block (up from -6)
  • Takeda - Fixed a bug that was causing Towards+FP,BP to sometimes be more negative on hit on ducking opponents
  • Takeda - Can now cancel into X-Ray after a blocked jump attack
  • Takeda - You can now meter burn Fist Flurry on hit
  • Takeda - Tornado Kick is now -6 on block (up from -21) and is now always a hard knockdown
  • Takeda - Adjusted the reaction to Tri Kunai to connect more consistently in combos
  • Takeda (Shirai Ryu) - You can now charge Quick Phase to delay for 2 seconds (up from 1)
  • Takeda (Lasher) - You can now meter burn Whip Assault on hit
  • Takeda (Lasher) - Removed 5 recovery frames on hit from Whip Strike & Whip Thrash
  • Takeda (Lasher) - Has 2 new air command attacks on Towards+FP & Towards+BP
  • Takeda (Lasher) - Down+Towards+FP Low Slash is now 19 on hit (up from 4)
  • Takeda (Ronin) - Fixed a bug that was causing BP,FP to sometimes be more negative on hit on ducking opponents
  • Takeda (Ronin) - Shirai Ryu Kan does 10 damage (up from 9) and Double Shirai Ryu Kan does 14 damage (up from 11)
  • Takeda (Ronin) - Piercing Spark has 2 less recovery frames
  • Takeda (Ronin) - Away+FP now hits mid, has 11 startup frames (down from 13) and is -2 on block (up from -23)
  • Takeda (Ronin) - Away+FP,FP is now 0 on block (up from -21)
  • Takeda (Ronin) - BP now has 12 startup frames (down from 14)
  • Takeda (Ronin) - BP,FP is now +2 on block (up from -10) and now causes a different air reaction
  • Takeda (Ronin) - Away+BP now has 12 startup frames (down from 15)
  • Takeda (Ronin) - increased active frames on Shirai Ryu Kan until he is done rising
 

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
Mileena
Alien
Johnny

Just cuz Hayatei is a God doesn't mean that he is the 3rd best in the game...as long as f3 run cancels on hit or whiff, Cage is 3rd
Dude, it isn't just Hayatei. It's Red Raptor, St9rm in the EU and others. Top 3 at combo breaker last night was piercing, ronin and shirai ryu, Takeda took two out of the top three spots, and that is just one of multiple examples of Takeda's strong tournament placings in both the online and offline settings.

You might reach a different conclusion if you are doing an abstract analysis of character tools, but tournament results speak quite clearly.
 

YoloRoll1stHit

Publicly Educated
I'm thinking a different way. If we have a accurate Mileena matchup chart and a accurate Takeda matchup chart, I think Takeda can rape way more character than Mileena does
Edit: I want to finish what I meant. Takeda MIGHT have more losing matchups than Mileena but he might have way more 6-4 and 7-3
 
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errormacro7

Official Sonya simp
Dude, it isn't just Hayatei. It's Red Raptor, St9rm in the EU and others. Top 3 at combo breaker last night was piercing, ronin and shirai ryu, Takeda took two out of the top three spots, and that is just one of multiple examples of Takeda's strong tournament placings in both the online and offline settings.

You might reach a different conclusion if you are doing an abstract analysis of character tools, but tournament results speak quite clearly.
But tournament results don't determine tiers. It's impressive how many people still use this as a talking point. It's like saying "if X or Y character is the best, then why only Z player is winning with them?" Sonic Fox dominated with Kitana when she was upper mid tier at best. Remember Saltface getting results with pre-patch Mileena? There are soooo many examples, even in other games, that tournament results don't really mean as much as you think for a character.
 

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
But tournament results don't determine tiers. It's impressive how many people still use this as a talking point. It's like saying "if X or Y character is the best, then why only Z player is winning with them?" Sonic Fox dominated with Kitana when she was upper mid tier at best. Remember Saltface getting results with pre-patch Mileena? There are soooo many examples, even in other games, that tournament results don't really mean as much as you think for a character.
I don't think tournament results are 100% conclusive, they just have a lot of weight. Other things such as matchup charts and specific character tools also matter (of course), but tournament results, particularly when looked at over time, are highly important imo.

In the case of Takeda, I wouldn't base my top 3 conclusion solely on tournament results, but when coupled with his very few bad matchups and his specific tools, he is firmly in that spot.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
But for real, I think:
1. Mileena
2. Alien
3. D'Vorah
4. Takeda
5. Kano
6. Sonya
7. Cage
8. Kung Jin
9. Shinnok
10. Ermac
 
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FinalBoss_FGC

Day -4MONTHS Dual Jin main
You're taking into account what a character has to deal with in F3, but what about what Johnny deals with from the character he's facing? There are a lot of things that can happen before he's in F3 range. To say nothing of moves that occupy more space than F3. Then you factor in a character's ability to keep him out or force him to play their game, etc. There is a LOT of nuance you're just not taking into account.

Comparing a move that an entire character's variation is based on, with varying degrees of effectiveness depending upon what character he's facing to a canceled normal move isn't the same thing at all.

Shinnok doesn't always steal the best move.

Example: He steals Kotal's air grab, not his best move. There are more examples.

And no, I'm not arguing about nothing. I'm sorry if you're having trouble following the value of a match-up based tier list, in which numbers are based on in-depth exploration of how every kit interacts in actual matches, but that's how it works and no, one tool doesn't always decide an entire match number.

There are varying meta levels to a match up. You're talking about level 1 stuff that anyone who understands how A-List Cage works knows.

Anyway, I'll leave this here since we're having a clear breakdown in communication.
Wtf, Shinnok steals Air Grab that gives him crazy block advantage....

After you saying that I'm done here lol
 

errormacro7

Official Sonya simp
I don't think tournament results are 100% conclusive, they just have a lot of weight. Other things such as matchup charts and specific character tools also matter (of course), but tournament results, particularly when looked at over time, are highly important imo.

In the case of Takeda, I wouldn't base my top 3 conclusion solely on tournament results, but when coupled with his very few bad matchups and his specific tools, he is firmly in that spot.
MU chart is the ONLY thing that matters, but that's just my honest and humble opinion. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. lol