He needs a player to use him at full potential. Right now Mileena has Foxy, Alien has Tweedy , Sonya has Scar....Kano is so good but he has no representation... I wonder why... it puts to question how good he really is, no tier whores play as him at tournaments so far. xD
Well, @GAMETIME is a fantastic Kano player. But I guess school or other things keep him form attending tournaments.He needs a player to use him at full potential. Right now Mileena has Foxy, Alien has Tweedy , Sonya has Scar....
And there are like 20 top 10 characters. Despite everything, MKXL is pretty balanceThere are like 10 top 3 characters
Character placement should be based on MU, not character's toolsMileena
Alien
Johnny
Just cuz Hayatei is a God doesn't mean that he is the 3rd best in the game...as long as f3 run cancels on hit or whiff, Cage is 3rd
Shinnok lose to KJ? Hahahahahaha kJohnny and Kano both don't have any good representation, but they are really good and should be in top 6-7 at worst. The thing is Johnny and Kano both have at least one obvious losing MU (both lose to Sub-zero, Johnny loses to Liu). Shinnok probably has even more losing MUs (Liu, Takeda, maybe D'Vorah and Kung Jin), so top 3 imo is between Takeda and Sonya Demo, I can't think of any obvious bad MU for them (5.5 should not count)
Ummm...Mileena is 80% #1 cuz of b1 staggers so plz stop.Character placement should be based on MU, not character's tools
It's actually a fair point, Corzz. Typically, tier lists are decided by match-up charts, with most favorable being placed at the top and least favorable toward the bottom.Ummm...Mileena is 80% #1 cuz of b1 staggers so plz stop.
And her b12 is the armor breaking string that leads into her restand. Her b1 is the single hardest thing to deal with in this game. Nobody has a real counter. Cage's f3 is the same way...if I want to get really specific I can rattle off the restand, the mixups, the chip damage, the meter less damage, so-on.Yea her B1 is insanely good but it is not the only reason. She is top 3 also because of her zoning, her teleport to counter zoning, armor breaking string, re-stand. Anyway, character placement is always based on MU (because MU is the best way to evaluate overall character), not by a specific tool
You do realize match-up based tier lists have existed and seen practical use for a long time, right?And her b12 is the armor breaking string that leads into her restand. Her b1 is the single hardest thing to deal with in this game. Nobody has a real counter. Cage's f3 is the same way...if I want to get really specific I can rattle off the restand, the mixups, the chip damage, the meter less damage, so-on.
The strength of tools determines MUs. Honestly, MU numbers are fugazze. Nobody plays the character at its highest possible ability and if someone did, nobody could play other characters at the highest possibly ability. MU numbers are toolset v toolset. For instance, Hunter Pred's mine is good but certain not a MU deciding factor, I'm sure we can agree...you use it vs Bartitsu BRC and it turns the MU into a severe problem for Bartitsu.
Now Cage's f3~run cancel is a tool that NOBODY can defend and it leads to his pressure, its safe AF on whiff and the hit box for it is insane. If nobody can defend against a tool, that makes the MUs more in his favor than not.
I don't see how his execution makes him weaker once you get his execution his gameplan looks pretty straight forward and in my opinion saying that the fact that he needs stamina is a weakness is like saying takeda's weakness is that he needs meter to do damage.I would put A-List Cage below Alien, Mileena and Takeda, because he gets tired and he is a high execution character that requires much more from the player.
Uhhh, I'm not doubting that?You do realize match-up based tier lists have existed and seen practical use for a long time, right?
Simply comparing tools doesn't accomplish anything. Everyone that takes the game seriously knows what they are.
But do we know how every character interacts with every other character? No.
That's why breaking down every match up is so important. You don't need to be Daigo to do that. If anything, breaking down every match up can further your understanding as you do it.
I agree, after the most recent patch stamina recovers twice as fast...so the need for stamina isn't as much of a problem as before.I don't see how his execution makes him weaker once you get his execution his gameplan looks pretty straight forward and in my opinion saying that the fact that he needs stamina is a weakness is like saying takeda's weakness is that he needs meter to do damage.
If course, but the talk isn't about how those tools interact, is it?Uhhh, I'm not doubting that?
I was told MU numbers not tools but tools are a direct reflection of MU numbers especially in MKX where tools are utilized more and footsies/spacing is utilized less.
MU numbers are dictated by two characters tools and the ability to deal with them. You do realized that, right?
First of all, A-list is super good, this is obvious.I don't see how his execution makes him weaker once you get his execution his gameplan looks pretty straight forward and in my opinion saying that the fact that he needs stamina is a weakness is like saying takeda's weakness is that he needs meter to do damage.
Player's execution does not have an effect on their characters placement in a tier list, nor does it have an effect on a MU chart. What you're saying is "player X failed at event Y due to character Z being hard to use" and what others are saying is "character Z (that character X plays) has these tools to deal with these MU's"First of all, A-list is super good, this is obvious.
But there are characters with a very threatening pressure that doesn't cost stamina, + other virtues he doesn't have, that's why I wouldn't consider him top 3 candidate.
The main problem with cancel characters imo is that they can fail you more often that characters whose pressure don't rely on cancels. The point is not "they require stamina", but "they require execution".
No doubt you can master the cancels to a point where you almost never fail them. But it will always be more likely to fail with a cancel character than with a regular one. Nerves, different game environment, different screens...even very little changes can make you not be on point and screw up. It's in part what happened to Xarakamaka, and nobody doubts he mastered Liu cancels.
I play ShaoJin and Ninjutsu...I use footsie characters...I am now downplaying footsies...but...comparing it to the likes of SFV...where its 90% footsies...MKX relies more on tools...If course, but the talk isn't about how those tools interact, is it?
No. Rattling off a grocery list of Mileena's moveset and saying, "bruh, broken" is something anyone with a pair of eyes, a functioning knowledge of frame data, and the pause button can do. That's not productive talk.
Now, if you were to say something like, "Piercing beats x character because..." and proceed to discuss the actual meta, then you'd have some substance.
Also, are we still down playing footsies in this game? I thought that was dead. Simply bevause the neutral/footsie game happens faster and momentum plays a bigger role doesn't mean that isn't just as important as tools.
After all, you could play the best character and your opponent the worst, and if your spacing sucks and his/hers doesn't, you'll probably lose.
What i am saying is that once Johnny cage stamina bar become empty you still have to guess If he is going to grab 11 into f2 113 armor etc the end of his stamina bar isn t the end of his offense but the begining of a possiblity of defense for his oponentFirst of all, A-list is super good, this is obvious.
But there are characters with a very threatening pressure that doesn't cost stamina, + other virtues he doesn't have, that's why I wouldn't consider him top 3 candidate.
The main problem with cancel characters imo is that they can fail you more often that characters whose pressure don't rely on cancels. The point is not "they require stamina", but "they require execution".
No doubt you can master the cancels to a point where you almost never fail them. But it will always be more likely to fail with a cancel character than with a regular one. Nerves, different game environment, different screens...even very little changes can make you not be on point and screw up. It's in part what happened to Xarakamaka, and nobody doubts he mastered Liu cancels.
Execution can effect a character's tournament representation, not its placement. Cage, DVorah, Liu Kang are not represented by many top players doesn't mean they are bad, people just don't like to pick themFirst of all, A-list is super good, this is obvious.
But there are characters with a very threatening pressure that doesn't cost stamina, + other virtues he doesn't have, that's why I wouldn't consider him top 3 candidate.
The main problem with cancel characters imo is that they can fail you more often that characters whose pressure don't rely on cancels. The point is not "they require stamina", but "they require execution".
No doubt you can master the cancels to a point where you almost never fail them. But it will always be more likely to fail with a cancel character than with a regular one. Nerves, different game environment, different screens...even very little changes can make you not be on point and screw up. It's in part what happened to Xarakamaka, and nobody doubts he mastered Liu cancels.
No they are equally good one is just easier to useThe point I'm trying to make is that if two characters could apply similar threatening gameplans, but one requires execution and the other does not...should not the second one be considered best, because it can give same results with less effort and more consistently?