Zangief General Discussion Thread

[JJvercetti]

That shit is crazy sick, but I never crush counter with Roundhouse when they're standing. I doubt this works literally, but I'm digging the idea behind it. Let us know what you come up with bro!

If you are talking about the reset, you are crush countering with HP not HK.

It's very situational. I think you can get a standing CC with HK on shoryukens, etc, just as they land, but I tend to use HP as it catches crouching opponents if I mistime it.

I would also refrain from doing the restand against characters with invincible reversals. You're rarely going to use f.mk without following up with a grab afterwards in neutral, so many opponents will (over time) react to it with a dp. It's not much damage, but it'll make you wish you went for the knock down and oki pressure. Against the rest of the cast I could see it being a solid option though, provided there is no gap between f.mk and s.hp for them to do a low attack or reliably armour.

If done right there is no gap between f.mk and s.hp, the only thing that should be punishable is the SPD but that can only be done with the Invincible reversal and possibly Birdie. Other characters normals shouldn't reach Gief.

 

[JJvercetti]

I play against a very good gief regularly. There's nothing wrong with him besides the lariat hit box. I've been grabbed out of normals after they've started up. like throwing out a c.mk from just inside sweep and he just grabs my toes. His anti airs aren't that bad, they are just all used in different situations and most people are spoiled by being able to spend three weeks reacting to any jump and then just mashing lariat like in ultra. The trick seems to be making your opponent respect that they could be grabbed at any time, and since backdash doesn't have invulnerable frames in this game, it is incredibly risky to ever use anything that's minus at all against him.

I wouldn't consider him top tier or whatever, but he's certainly a viable choice. this is one of the most balanced fighters on initial release that I can remember. react to a 19 frame move? challenge accepted. 19 frames is comparatively extremely slow in SFV.

You are fighting him at the wrong range. In past street fighters he has to be up in your face, in SF V he wants to be in the range between max hp and just inside sweep. His fastest normal is 5 frames so just get in his face.

 

[ChoseDeath]

I play against a very good gief regularly. There's nothing wrong with him besides the lariat hit box. I've been grabbed out of normals after they've started up. like throwing out a c.mk from just inside sweep and he just grabs my toes. His anti airs aren't that bad, they are just all used in different situations and most people are spoiled by being able to spend three weeks reacting to any jump and then just mashing lariat like in ultra. The trick seems to be making your opponent respect that they could be grabbed at any time, and since backdash doesn't have invulnerable frames in this game, it is incredibly risky to ever use anything that's minus at all against him.

I wouldn't consider him top tier or whatever, but he's certainly a viable choice. this is one of the most balanced fighters on initial release that I can remember. react to a 19 frame move? challenge accepted. 19 frames is comparatively extremely slow in SFV.

Show me you doing it then. More appropriately, not knowing who you play, show me you doing it with a character that you have to chase her the whole match and then BANG. I have a friend who plays a great Laura if you need one.

Now, you are absolutely correct that Zangief has a fantastic AA game, and I love it.

And don't try and backdash if you're negative and getting grabbed. Any air born normal or jump beats SPD. Who is your character that Gief is giving you so much trouble?

 

[countrypistol]

I play against a very good gief regularly. There's nothing wrong with him besides the lariat hit box. I've been grabbed out of normals after they've started up. like throwing out a c.mk from just inside sweep and he just grabs my toes. His anti airs aren't that bad, they are just all used in different situations and most people are spoiled by being able to spend three weeks reacting to any jump and then just mashing lariat like in ultra. The trick seems to be making your opponent respect that they could be grabbed at any time, and since backdash doesn't have invulnerable frames in this game, it is incredibly risky to ever use anything that's minus at all against him.

I wouldn't consider him top tier or whatever, but he's certainly a viable choice. this is one of the most balanced fighters on initial release that I can remember. react to a 19 frame move? challenge accepted. 19 frames is comparatively extremely slow in SFV.

It's not that risky to use minus frame moves against Gief at close range provided you cross him up afterwards. He cannot air SPD on a backwards jump, c.hp and lariat will likely miss, and if he goes for a c.lp combo or grab you'll either beat him or be reset, whereby you can just try crossing over again. The risk/reward is heavily in your favour as the effective anti-cross up moves (backwards jumping jab and stand jab) only do 30 damage, whereas you'll get over 120 minimum if you're successful. That means Gief has to anti air successfully more than 80% of the time to break even on health, and as a Gief player, defending against this relentless crossing over is mentally exhausting.

Good use of v skill and predictive instant air SPD's can shut down this approach, but it's heavily read dependent. To make it work you need to know every move's frame data, what is and isn't a frame trap, what can be interupted and what can't, what can be punished and by what... you can see the problem.

 

[Sultani]

You are fighting him at the wrong range. In past street fighters he has to be up in your face, in SF V he wants to be in the range between max hp and just inside sweep. His fastest normal is 5 frames so just get in his face.

This explains some things. lol. thanks.

Read through the rest of the responses. Yeah, I'm just fighting him wrong. jump back mp instead of backdash seems to be much better here.

Thanks. lots of good info here.

 

[countrypistol]

My friend raised an interesting point the other day. Alex is a premium character. Whilst you don't have to pay for him with real money, you do have that option. Zangief is the 'free' equivalent to him. If Zangief is better than Alex, what reason is there for anybody to buy Alex? Therefore, Capcom may well have intentionally given Gief weaknesses (like Lariat not comboing and no backwards air spd) to make Alex more tempting.

This is conjecture of course, but there's a cynical part of me that believes it could be true.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

So guys, would you say that a further jump in against Gief you would do the lariat, a closer jump in you would use a standing jab or crouching fierce? And for a cross-up you would do a backwards jump jab? Is that about right?

 

[Sultani]

Um... Zangiefs fastest normal is not 5 frames. c.lp and c.lk are both 4 frames, and are +3 and +1 on block respectively. With jump startup being increased to 4 frames from 3, anything more than minus 1 should get you grabbed. anything that's -1 and you're at best trading a poke with him because after the patch a mashed counter poke will hit you out of the 4 frame jump startup. If you know this and you block the counter poke, you're -3 or -1. And you just got grabbed again.

 

[countrypistol]

So guys, would you say that a further jump in against Gief you would do the lariat, a closer jump in you would use a standing jab or crouching fierce? And for a cross-up you would do a backwards jump jab? Is that about right?

In general yeah. Use c.hp for when they like to nuetral jump on your wake up, and use s.hk and air spd on a read.

One thing I'm trying to implement at the moment is buffering air spd into a forward jump, and if they jump at me press punch, if they don't press kick. It'll take some practice, but it'll make air to air against him a scary proposition.

 

[countrypistol]

Um... Zangiefs fastest normal is not 5 frames. c.lp and c.lk are both 4 frames, and are +3 and +1 on block respectively. With jump startup being increased to 4 frames from 3, anything more than minus 1 should get you grabbed. anything that's -1 and you're at best trading a poke with him because after the patch a mashed counter poke will hit you out of the 4 frame jump startup. If you know this and you block the counter poke, you're -3 or -1. And you just got grabbed again.

Pre jump frames are throw immune

 

[Sultani]

Pre jump frames are throw immune

they are throw immune. they are not hit immune. his 4 frame counter pokes will hit anything you do that leaves you worse than -1 besides a 3 frame poke of your own.

Probably best to refrain doing anything against gief that leaves you any worse than -1. Blocking a poke leaves you at worst -3, and at best -1. you don't want to be any worse off than minus 1 against this guy.

 

[ChoseDeath]

My friend raised an interesting point the other day. Alex is a premium character. Whilst you don't have to pay for him with real money, you do have that option. Zangief is the 'free' equivalent to him. If Zangief is better than Alex, what reason is there for anybody to buy Alex? Therefore, Capcom may well have intentionally given Gief weaknesses (like Lariat not comboing and no backwards air spd) to make Alex more tempting.

This is conjecture of course, but there's a cynical part of me that believes it could be true.

Holy shit... That has more than a small amount of a chance to be true! Great point.

 

[countrypistol]

they are throw immune. they are not hit immune. his 4 frame counter pokes will hit anything you do that leaves you greater than -1 besides a 3 frame poke of your own.

Probably best to refrain doing anything against gief that leaves you any worse than -1.

I was responding to the point that you made that a -1 blocked attack will get you grabbed even if you jump. If that wasn't what you meant then fair enough.

The bigger issue when playing Gief is your own human reactions. It will take a long time to become familiar with every move to the point where you poke out on the first available frame and catch the pre jump frames. Slightly too late and, whoops, you got crossed up. However, learning to do this will make you a better player and make strategising with other characters easier, so whilst it may be challenging, it's not a bad problem to have.

 

[lionheart21]

I main Chun-Li and fighting a good Zangief is definitely one of the toughest matchups I've faced thus far. Since her fireball is a charge, its a matchup based completely on footsies and just chipping away since he could just absorb a hit with his V-Skill and command grab while you recover.

 

[countrypistol]

I main Chun-Li and fighting a good Zangief is definitely one of the toughest matchups I've faced thus far. Since her fireball is a charge, its a matchup based completely on footsies and just chipping away since he could just absorb a hit with his V-Skill and command grab while you recover.

You're throwing them too close if he's v skill absorbing and then grabbing you. V Skill has recovery, it doesn't put him at frame advantage like in 3S. Take to the air with jump in lightening legs and pressure with her multi-hitting normals. V Skill only absorbs two hits (outside of v trigger) and Chun can easily confirm multi hitting moves into a combo. And if he blocks an unsafe move/string, cross him up. His anti cross up attacks only do about 30 damage.

 

[ChoseDeath]

I main Chun-Li and fighting a good Zangief is definitely one of the toughest matchups I've faced thus far. Since her fireball is a charge, its a matchup based completely on footsies and just chipping away since he could just absorb a hit with his V-Skill and command grab while you recover.

I agree. Fucking weird but I feel like Chun is one of his easier matches. At least you can catch her!

 

[ChoseDeath]

I agree. Fucking weird but I feel like Chun is one of his easier matches. At least you can catch her!

And just do what @countrypistol said and that's a great place to start.

 

[lionheart21]

You're throwing them too close if he's v skill absorbing and then grabbing you. V Skill has recovery, it doesn't put him at frame advantage like in 3S. Take to the air with jump in lightening legs and pressure with her multi-hitting normals. V Skill only absorbs two hits (outside of v trigger) and Chun can easily confirm multi hitting moves into a combo. And if he blocks an unsafe move/string, cross him up. His anti cross up attacks only do about 30 damage.

Yeah, I'm still trying to get down the timing of the air Lightning Legs. It also seems that I don't make as many bad reads against any other character.

 

[JJvercetti]

Um... Zangiefs fastest normal is not 5 frames. c.lp and c.lk are both 4 frames, and are +3 and +1 on block respectively. With jump startup being increased to 4 frames from 3, anything more than minus 1 should get you grabbed. anything that's -1 and you're at best trading a poke with him because after the patch a mashed counter poke will hit you out of the 4 frame jump startup. If you know this and you block the counter poke, you're -3 or -1. And you just got grabbed again.

I did make a mistake with the frames on normal attacks. When the patch comes, I think the increased jump frames is only for neutral and jumping back so attempted cross ups are still the best option.

 

[Sultani]

I was responding to the point that you made that a -1 blocked attack will get you grabbed even if you jump. If that wasn't what you meant then fair enough.

The bigger issue when playing Gief is your own human reactions. It will take a long time to become familiar with every move to the point where you poke out on the first available frame and catch the pre jump frames. Slightly too late and, whoops, you got crossed up. However, learning to do this will make you a better player and make strategising with other characters easier, so whilst it may be challenging, it's not a bad problem to have.

This all very true. most of what I was saying is just theory fighting based on everything being frame perfect all the time. That's not how things happen.

 

[countrypistol]

You can actually V Skill absorb up to four hits outside of v trigger. Capcom just released the official Zangief guide video and in it they say that he can absorb two hits standing, then another two whilst moving forward. Just tested it and sure enough you can parry four consecutive hits.

However, v skill negates push back so if someone jumps in and mashes a 3-4 frame jab, they will stand in place until the jab hits you. You can't interupt it with the v skill hit. Against these players though, just block two hits and grab, or better yet, just anti air. Player's who are mashing jab on jump ins are likely to be jumping in a lot.

 

[JJvercetti]

You can actually V Skill absorb up to four hits outside of v trigger. Capcom just released the official Zangief guide video and in it they say that he can absorb two hits standing, then another two whilst moving forward. Just tested it and sure enough you can parry four consecutive hits.

However, v skill negates push back so if someone jumps in and mashes a 3-4 frame jab, they will stand in place until the jab hits you. You can't interupt it with the v skill hit. Against these players though, just block two hits and grab, or better yet, just anti air. Player's who are mashing jab on jump ins are likely to be jumping in a lot.

That guide mentioned that you could get CC off crouch hp? I'm sure that was in one of the betas and definitely got taken out.

 

[countrypistol]

That guide mentioned that you could get CC off crouch hp? I'm sure that was in one of the betas and definitely got taken out.

Yeah, I've never seen it happen

 

[JJvercetti]

I just found out that sometimes R.Mika HK can beat Giefs EX Siberian Express. When I say this, I mean it totally beats it and she can carry on her combo.

 

[countrypistol]

I just found out that sometimes R.Mika HK can beat Giefs EX Siberian Express. When I say this, I mean it totally beats it and she can carry on her combo.

Is it the charged one? Maybe the charge breaks armour?