Question - Takeda How Much would it Hurt Takeda

[MrProfDrPepper]

Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm still learning to play against the character, but isn't the point of the mix-up that you need to make a read on whether he is going to pop it off the bat and block low, or go for the hard to blockable and jump out?





I think this is exactly it, and what people are missing. Yeah the safe ball doesn't make him OP or a top tier character and has little effect on balance for most of the cast. However, there is some members of the cast that it is just poor design against, you can't play any sort of zoning game against him because of it especially since he can use it while airborne. Plus, he already has a TP to get in in one variation, and a reflect to deal with zoning in another. It would make the character more cohesive and make gameplay a better design in some more niche match-ups, without really hurting the character very much competitively. I think this would be a great change for the sake of the game and making less aggressive, reactive playstyles somewhat more viable. Even if it's only punishable on whiff.

Because it KILLS THE THIRD VARIATION, it won't affect ronin or Shirai at all but it makes life SO much harder for lasher, this is one of his key tools for positioning and punishing, and it isn't this all holy get in free move, hell no it is a risky tool to throw out in the first place

 

[Alright RyRy]

Because it KILLS THE THIRD VARIATION, it won't affect ronin or Shirai at all but it makes life SO much harder for lasher, this is one of his key tools for positioning and punishing, and it isn't this all holy get in free move, hell no it is a risky tool to throw out in the first place

Then remove it from the other 2 and only leave it in Lasher, I would be fine with that.

 

[God Confirm]

They should also add some recovery frames on whiff to reptile. He is another character with no whiff recovery.

His is sort of the opposite though, if you miss a Takeda Ball you played it wrong or your opponent ran under it or something, but you want it to land on them so that it eithers hits, or chips and is safe. This should be punishable on whiff.

Whiffing a Slide or Dash against someone blocking takes a lot of skill and knowledge of spacing, and lets you up in their grills with a meterless fast recovery low profile dash in a sense , while risking full combo punish if you fuck it up

What characters who rely on zoning cant zone cause or the airball

Which ones can? I mean there is always going to be tools to counter what play your opponent makes, however especially against a lightning fast recovery projectile like Predator, even fullest of full screens, Takeda has to only whiff one projectile by jumping and he's in, if he's fast enough Predator doesn't even have time to catch him with an NjP, an NjP that Predator can only catch him with if he READS the Ball. It's similar to Slides and Teleports, they are excellent counter zoning tools - except they are heavily punishable on block. Takeda's just needs to be slightly punishable on whiff so that his opponent has a play here, while it doesn't matter against all the rushdown members of the cast that almost everybody plays, there is a couple of characters that it is just bad gameplay design.

 

[God Confirm]

Because it KILLS THE THIRD VARIATION, it won't affect ronin or Shirai at all but it makes life SO much harder for lasher, this is one of his key tools for positioning and punishing, and it isn't this all holy get in free move, hell no it is a risky tool to throw out in the first place

What is risky about throwing it out fullscreen after jumping a projectile? Or should the character just have a free, unpunishable fullscreen counter to completely shut down zoners ON REACTION (not read) just for whiffing a SINGLE projectile, instead of having to get in like other characters, which is already easy as shit in MKX? Shit, don't answer that. You are the guy who said Takeda needs a block infinite to be competitive - un-ironically.


Give Lasher something else, it's not like he couldn't use it. And to say it kills him is ridiculous anyway "my get-in-for-free, fullscreen, safe on block, projectile dodging meterless ball can now be punished if my opponent outplays me and manages to whiff it" Oh no you might just have to get in like every other character in MKX has to

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

What is risky about throwing it out fullscreen after jumping a projectile? Or should the character just have a free, unpunishable fullscreen counter to completely shut down zoners ON REACTION (not read) just for whiffing a SINGLE projectile, instead of having to get in like other characters, which is already easy as shit in MKX? Shit, don't answer that. You are the guy who said Takeda needs a block infinite to be competitive - un-ironically.


Give Lasher something else, it's not like he couldn't use it. And to say it kills him is ridiculous anyway "my get-in-for-free, fullscreen, safe on block, projectile dodging meterless ball can now be punished if my opponent outplays me and manages to whiff it" Oh no you might just have to get in like every other character in MKX has to

It is risky to just throw out, and even then against someone like predator. If I throw it out at all I WILL get punished. It is in no way a free safe feet in free tool, hell the reason it is so useful isn't to just get in but for positioning, which lasher needs, it won't kill the variation to have it have an assload of recovery BUT it would hurt later immensely while the other two variations could care less. Hell if I rely on tornado kick I will eat 30% every time I use it, even when reacting to projectiles.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Then remove it from the other 2 and only leave it in Lasher, I would be fine with that.

But I don't think that would happen, with universal moves if you nerf it for just one variation you are nerfing it for all of them

 

[God Confirm]

It is risky to just throw out, and even then against someone like predator. If I throw it out at all I WILL get punished. It is in no way a free safe feet in free tool, hell the reason it is so useful isn't to just get in but for positioning, which lasher needs, it won't kill the variation to have it have an assload of recovery BUT it would hurt later immensely while the other two variations could care less. Hell if I rely on tornado kick I will eat 30% every time I use it, even when reacting to projectiles.

I mean you keep saying it's unsafe and I'm willing to hear how, but it's safe on block and almost unpunishable on whiff unless you read the move AND read the exact range he picks and position yourself just outside of it and start attacking the instant he crosses your head, which is a pretty crazy read and high execution, and unnecessarily so - plus if you say it's already punishable on whiff then no change, hes still punishable on whiff, just not ridiculously impractically punishable only by luck style punish

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

I only want to be at advantage because you didn't commit to the full length version. When you could of punished me in that particular situation.

Doesn t the fact that he didn t commit at your advantage bait NJP and poof it s over it s a non issue

 

[God Confirm]

I don t really see the problem with it If I am reacting to a mistake you it s on you not me. From what I can get you want to be at an advantage even after messing up is that right?

And this is where the confusion is. Whiffing a single projectile isn't a mistake for zoners, it's part of their gameplan and controlling the space, and you need to get through a couple of reads on the projectiles and advance through it, or spend a bar on counter zoning, or risk being baited and punished, or SOMETHING. Takedas ball is none of those things, he can wait for a shot, jump it, close the entire gap, and do it safely on both whiff and block.


In fact, it's the opposite of what you are saying. People don't want to be safe on the mistakes, we aren't asking for Takedas move to be any slower on start-up. Takeda mains are the ones asking to be unpunishable for their mistake of whiffing the ball, which doesn't happen if if he does it on a correct read of projectile, or when neutral does it on a correct read of spacing, it's still safe on block.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

I mean you keep saying it's unsafe and I'm willing to hear how, but it's safe on block and almost unpunishable on whiff unless you read the move AND read the exact range he picks and position yourself just outside of it and start attacking the instant he crosses your head, which is a pretty crazy read and high execution, and unnecessarily so - plus if you say it's already punishable on whiff then no change, hes still punishable on whiff, just not ridiculously impractically punishable only by luck style punish

No, I did not say it was unsafe. I said risky. Because if I just throw it out you can react and jip me and continue for a full combo while I'm in midair, because tornado kick doesnt have much priority. And it really isn't an option against a zoner like kitana since she will fuck me up all day with fans if I try to tornado kick. Tornado kick isn't so much for using against zoners as it is for baiting and positioning with lasher

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

And this is where the confusion is. Whiffing a single projectile isn't a mistake for zoners, it's part of their gameplan and controlling the space, and you need to get through a couple of reads on the projectiles and advance through it, or spend a bar on counter zoning, or risk being baited and punished, or SOMETHING. Takedas ball is none of those things, he can wait for a shot, jump it, close the entire gap, and do it safely on both whiff and block.


In fact, it's the opposite of what you are saying. People don't want to be safe on the mistakes, we aren't asking for Takedas move to be any slower on start-up. Takeda mains are the ones asking to be unpunishable for their mistake of whiffing the ball, which doesn't happen if if he does it on a correct read of projectile, or when neutral does it on a correct read of spacing, it's still safe on block.

He talked about the force ball which is full screen punishable in the case he stated in the case of a fast recovering projectile like spit ball he can still use any of the options cited before to get rid of the spin kick. You guys are seriously up playing spin kick or maybe I just need to learn how to use it better.

 

[God Confirm]

No, I did not say it was unsafe. I said risky. Because if I just throw it out you can react and jip me and continue for a full combo while I'm in midair, because tornado kick doesnt have much priority. And it really isn't an option against a zoner like kitana since she will fuck me up all day with fans if I try to tornado kick. Tornado kick isn't so much for using against zoners as it is for baiting and positioning with lasher

No, you simply cannot, that might apply to the neutral game which is NOT where the Tornado Kick is bad design, it's against zoning. Even Predator cannot contest a fast enough Tornado Kick after Takeda whiff's any of his regular projectiles, and they have excellent recovery. So basically, zoners cannot play their game against Takeda practically ever because Takeda can just whiff it and is in completely safely on both a correct read, and a mistaken read most the time too. Other counter zoners like Reptile and Scorp risk full combo punish for their counter zoning moves, Takeda should simply have a small but practical punish window on his ball for WHIFF

He talked about the force ball which is full screen punishable in the case he stated in the case of a fast recovering projectile like spit ball he can still use any of the options cited before to get rid of the spin kick. You guys are seriously up playing spin kick or maybe I just need to learn how to use it better.

Nah, not saying it's OP at all or that you guys are using it wrong, I'm also saying it doesn't make a difference against like 95% of the cast. Just against the very few characters that do try to zone, it's really bad game design is all.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

No, you simply cannot, that might apply to the neutral game which is NOT where the Tornado Kick is bad design, it's against zoning. Even Predator cannot contest a fast enough Tornado Kick after Takeda whiff's any of his regular projectiles, and they have excellent recovery. So basically, zoners cannot play their game against Takeda practically ever because Takeda can just whiff it and is in completely safely on both a correct read, and a mistaken read most the time too. Other counter zoners like Reptile and Scorp risk full combo punish for their counter zoning moves, Takeda should simply have a small but practical punish window on his ball for WHIFF


Nah, not saying it's OP at all or that you guys are using it wrong, I'm also saying it doesn't make a difference against like 95% of the cast. Just against the very few characters that do try to zone, it's really bad game design is all.

I have tried to tornado kick him through his zoning, it is pretty obvious I'm going to tornado kick if I jump, up laser destroys me. Hell when you block it your pressure begins, if I whiff it I'm vulnerable to more zoning, it isn't nearly as good as you make it out to be against zoning. I basically have to go straight for you since if I try and set myself up for a b2 then you can low laser and interrupt me on reaction, if I low slash you can trade with me with low laser and I'm being set full screen before I know it, lasher can deal with zoners, he just has to be patient. I can't tornado kick in free like you are implying.

 

[B. Shazzy]

If you're defending being essentially unwhiffpunishable after your already safe on block fullscreen air special then you're a scrub tbh. No other way to put it. There's so many options for Takeda after he whiffs it, especially in Lasher which has psuedo safe armored low launcher with range. The threat of a a safe fullscreen air special in neutral is already enough for that move, man.

I think I've punished it once on whiff with Jin's instant jumpback divekick but it's hard to tell because all Takeda players push buttons after they whiff a move.

Same thing with ex kunai not disappearing on hit, that needs to go to.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

If you're defending being essentially unwhiffpunishable after your already safe on block fullscreen air special then you're a scrub tbh. No other way to put it. There's so many options for Takeda after he whiffs it, especially in Lasher which has psuedo safe armored low launcher with range. The threat of a a safe fullscreen air special in neutral is already enough for that move, man.

I think I've punished it once on whiff with Jin's instant jumpback divekick but it's hard to tell because all Takeda players push buttons after they whiff a move.

Same thing with ex kunai not disappearing on hit, that needs to go to.

Or you can lab it and realize it really isn't that big of a threat, also an option.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

If you're defending being essentially unwhiffpunishable after your already safe on block fullscreen air special then you're a scrub tbh. No other way to put it. There's so many options for Takeda after he whiffs it, especially in Lasher which has psuedo safe armored low launcher with range. The threat of a a safe fullscreen air special in neutral is already enough for that move, man.

I think I've punished it once on whiff with Jin's instant jumpback divekick but it's hard to tell because all Takeda players push buttons after they whiff a move.

Same thing with ex kunai not disappearing on hit, that needs to go to.

After takeda whiffs it he doesn t have a lot of options like you re implying it s the opposite and If you punished it how is it unwhiffpunishable mister non scrubby gamer?

 

[Tweedy]

After takeda whiffs it he doesn t have a lot of options like you re implying it s the opposite and If you punished it how is it unwhiffpunishable mister non scrubby gamer?

 

[HomeLee1121]

When i was playing against pig at his place. Almost Every time I threw this move out to get in he punished me on reaction when it whiffed.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

He really doesn't though, I can low poke if you decide to punish with a high attack, try and disrespect you and armor. Or backdash which can get blown up by a projectile or forward advancing moves. It isn't NEARLY as good as people make it out to be. Hence why whenever I use it to try and get in on zoning I get blown the fuck up. Which is why I use it as a positioning tool now. Or to try and get a hard knockdown

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

You have punished that shit more time than not soo...

 

[Tweedy]

He really doesn't though, I can low poke if you decide to punish with a high attack, try and disrespect you and armor. Or backdash which can get blown up by a projectile or forward advancing moves. It isn't NEARLY as good as people make it out to be. Hence why whenever I use it to try and get in on zoning I get blown the fuck up. Which is why I use it as a positioning tool now. Or to try and get a hard knockdown

Yeah, I know. The clan i'm in has like 47 and a half Takeda's or some shit. I'm just messing with Tak.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Yeah, I know. The clan i'm in has like 47 and a half Takeda's or some shit. I'm just messing with Tak.

That's fair enough lol, still I can't believe how much people up-play this move

 

[God Confirm]

I have tried to tornado kick him through his zoning, it is pretty obvious I'm going to tornado kick if I jump, up laser destroys me. .

Instead of words, I've got two videos for you that basically cover it all

That's the best recovery projectile in the game AFAIK, and he still can't anti-air you out. Now imagine if you are trying to zone with ANYONE other than Predator. Just drop the narrative.

I basically have to go straight for you since if I try and set myself up for a b2 then you can low laser and interrupt me on reaction, if I low slash you can trade with me with low laser and I'm being set full screen before I know it, lasher can deal with zoners, he just has to be patient. I can't tornado kick in free like you are implying

What you are describing here is all universal neutral shit, not used as a safe "cover the entire screen and get me in safe on block AND whiff which can't be contested during the recovery frames of any single projectile whiff in the game". Even JC's Shadow Kick is High and can be contested, and it costs a meter. This shit is just bad design.


And let's be real, if I AM correct, it's not like you would admit it - you think Takeda NEEDS a block infinite, you will literally say anything to defend even the worst gameplay design aspects when it comes to this character. This is the problem with MKX, everyone complains about the design and how zoning is dead - but when changes to some of the dumb shit is suggested even if it won't hurt the character for other shit, people argue against it to the death because they would prefer personally the most titled playing field they can possibly get for their character.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

Yeah, I know. The clan i'm in has like 47 and a half Takeda's or some shit. I'm just messing with Tak.

 

[KHTC Takgillo]

Instead of words, I've got two videos for you that basically cover it all

That's the best recovery projectile in the game AFAIK, and he still can't anti-air you out. Now imagine if you are trying to zone with ANYONE other than Predator. Just drop the narrative.



What you are describing here is all universal neutral shit, not used as a safe "cover the entire screen and get me in safe on block AND whiff which can't be contested during the recovery frames of any single projectile whiff in the game". Even JC's Shadow Kick is High and can be contested, and it costs a meter. This shit is just bad design.


And let's be real, if I AM correct, it's not like you would admit it - you think Takeda NEEDS a block infinite, you will literally say anything to defend even the worst gameplay design aspects when it comes to this character. This is the problem with MKX, everyone complains about the design and how zoning is dead - but when changes to some of the dumb shit is suggested even if it won't hurt the character for other shit, people argue against it to the death because they would prefer personally the most titled playing field they can possibly get for their character.

To be fair what you are doing is not what we are talking about though you re punishing it the thing is about whiffing the spin kick