General/Other - Jason Voorhees changing Jason's command grab motion

[countrypistol]

Honestly, I think ticks are the least of Jason's problems. He already has pretty solid ticks, B1 dbf2 and d1 dbf1 come to mind. He also gets ticks off of B2, F2 and 24, best part is that if they take the hit, the grab will actually combo.

Forgot about B2 and F2, it's been a long time. They are still only 1 hit ticks for the most part, unlike Erron and Kotal, and susceptible to armour due to being all mids and highs. Even Commando can tick off F33. Having 24 combo on hit as well as tick on block is nice, but it's hardly enough.

 

[TopTierHarley]

Just do a tatsu then press forward. You don't have to lift your finger for any input in the game cause it naturally reads df, db, etc. as motions without the use of alternate controls.

 

[God Confirm]

The elitism is real on TYM

 

[TopTierHarley]

The elitism is real on TYM

How so? Cause we said the input isn't hard?
Or is it the fact we gave him solutions to help him learn the input?

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

The input isn't "hard" and most executional errors can be overcome with practice for sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't cumbersome, unintuitive and unnecessary. DBF is a stupid fucking motion, bottom line. It's a smooth, singular motion/quarter circle one way and then a jerk in the opposite direction. It's not the worst thing in the world but it's also far from from the best idea for a grab input, especially on characters who already have DB motions devoted to air grabs off the same button. Part of the reason I prefer Sun God to any other grappler in this game. A b1/b2 tic-throw for Jason always feels like some of the most awkward shit I can try to do on pad, honestly, no matter how well I get it down.

 

[God Confirm]

How so? Cause we said the input isn't hard?
Or is it the fact we gave him solutions to help him learn the input?

The fact that people are complaining about a guy asking for the input changed when it would only make the character more streamlined. Arbitrary manufactured difficulty doesn't add enjoyment to either playing or watching, it's just an unnecessary addition. It might not be stupidly hard or anything, but it still doesn't need to be there, and it doesn't add anything by being there, so why not improve QoL for everybody and change the input? Oh because "muh skillcap" "level up scrub" "so EZ"

 

[thlityoursloat]

Forgot about B2 and F2, it's been a long time. They are still only 1 hit ticks for the most part, unlike Erron and Kotal, and susceptible to armour due to being all mids and highs. Even Commando can tick off F33. Having 24 combo on hit as well as tick on block is nice, but it's hardly enough.

It's enough imo. I'd rather they improve on his other much worse shortcomings, like B122 damage scaling and the low profilability of some of his mids.

 

[TopTierHarley]

The fact that people are complaining about a guy asking for the input changed when it would only make the character more streamlined. Arbitrary manufactured difficulty doesn't add enjoyment to either playing or watching, it's just an unnecessary addition. It might not be stupidly hard or anything, but it still doesn't need to be there, and it doesn't add anything by being there, so why not improve QoL for everybody and change the input? Oh because "muh skillcap" "level up scrub" "so EZ"

People literally went over this in Injustice. the command is fine, there is no "muh skillcap" debate going on here.

 

[ShotgunInsanity]

It's just qcb then f+(whatever button)

git gud

 

[Hidan]

dbf is fine. It's DB1 that should ultimately removed since it's the most useless special, especially for a character who presses "1" 80% of the time

 

[Wigy]

kotal's the (2nd) best grappler in the game because he's got a million tick set ups, has nothing to do with the motion. Why don't you try alternate controls?

Dude b1 grab you can't low unblock.

It ticks off a 9 frame mid and has silly damage as well as giving you a health buff if you need it.

who is better? Definitely not erron.

Its only fallback is its easier to whiff punish than other command grabs.

Also versus rc and stagger pressure being able to buffer the input rapidly cause of the db input is a very valuable asset.

 

[JDM]

Input is fine. Takes very minor practice to be able to pull off consistently. Now something like Jacquis 4u4? Change that lol

 

[Infinite]

The fact that people are complaining about a guy asking for the input changed when it would only make the character more streamlined. Arbitrary manufactured difficulty doesn't add enjoyment to either playing or watching, it's just an unnecessary addition. It might not be stupidly hard or anything, but it still doesn't need to be there, and it doesn't add anything by being there, so why not improve QoL for everybody and change the input? Oh because "muh skillcap" "level up scrub" "so EZ"

You are complaining, most of us are just disagreeing. I like this kind of difficulty much more than tight links and I don't really think that input is unnatural to mkx.

Virtually every successful fighting game has difficult tech and difficult combos and tech make things much more interesting. Otherwise everyone would watch UMvC3 and get hype every five seconds when another dude is in an infinite or doing some super easy super.

 

[BiPolarExxpress]

This seems more like a buff my execution thread. Honestly, it's just going to take practice. If the input was changed I don't see Jason's all of a sudden coming out of the woodwork and placing anywhere.

 

[Tony at Home]

The input isn't "hard" and most executional errors can be overcome with practice for sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't cumbersome, unintuitive and unnecessary. DBF is a stupid fucking motion, bottom line. It's a smooth, singular motion/quarter circle one way and then a jerk in the opposite direction. It's not the worst thing in the world but it's also far from from the best idea for a grab input, especially on characters who already have DB motions devoted to air grabs off the same button. Part of the reason I prefer Sun God to any other grappler in this game. A b1/b2 tic-throw for Jason always feels like some of the most awkward shit I can try to do on pad, honestly, no matter how well I get it down.

This.

The motions are just dumb and unnecessary. No other special moves in the game are 'balanced' based on the idea of 'too good, make input dumb'. It's like a completely arbitrary thing tacked onto command grabs for some reason.

Doing a poke that starts with something like then is essentially ... Yeah, I can do it with practice, but waaaaaiiii am I doing this for a simple command grab, but with every other character I'm throwing out much better specials while not having to beat the crap out of my controllers d-pad?

 

[buyacushun]

because im on a square gate of a fight stick so a sweeping motion is clunky as fuck, for me going down back and then flicking feels good and natural, and i personally like dbf for command grabs, i think 2 direction inputs should be saved for other specials

Half circles might be easier on stick, but pad and hitbox don't really care. Either way, I think the difficulty is at a very acceptable and fun level. I think double motions is where it starts to get annoying, especially when there are similar moves that misfire.

I would not prefer db in this instance, though I acknowledge it's easier.

Yeah after prof first said he found dbf better I did the motion in the air with my thumb and that's when I realized we probably differ because I play on pad. That's actually pretty interesting when you think about.

I too dont like double motions but sometimes they're needed. Also dont like NRS thing with only directions for some moves. Like spectral flight and raiden teleport.

 

[Infinite]

This.

The motions are just dumb and unnecessary. No other special moves in the game are 'balanced' based on the idea of 'too good, make input dumb'. It's like a completely arbitrary thing tacked onto command grabs for some reason.

Doing a poke that starts with something like then is essentially ... Yeah, I can do it with practice, but waaaaaiiii am I doing this for a simple command grab, but with every other character I'm throwing out much better specials while not having to beat the crap out of my controllers d-pad?

Bicycle kick and hover come to mind, stanky leg has been mentioned. Erron Black 21122 and Kung lao 112124 also apply. Don't forget there are multiple instant air specials that can nearly totally overshadow their ground specials.

 

[Tony at Home]

Bicycle kick and hover come to mind, stanky leg has been mentioned. Erron Black 21122 and Kung lao 112124 also apply. Don't forget there are multiple instant air specials that can nearly totally overshadow their ground specials.

Not to say that command grabs are the only arbitrarily verbose command.

Though for certain commands they are not arbitrarily difficult, they're as difficult as they need to be, and that's whats important. 21122 for Erron Black is frustrating, but just based on the speed of the punches and NRS's "dial in" system, they're difficult because that's just how it has to be for the move to work.

Pretty sure bicycle kick is a good example of a move that has extra motions tacked on 'just cuz' though.

So the question is, do grabs need to have that input to function as they should, or is it an extra button press 'just cuz'. I think in most cases it's the latter.

I think these are legitimate reasons for complex inputs:
1. You have limited controller space and inputs, so sometimes that extra motion is needed to differentiate.
2. Motions are often required so special inputs are affected properly by crossups.
3. Sometimes a move is meant to come out super fast when buffered, but to have some startup when not buffered (Shoryuken's in SFIV for example. 3 frame startup for excellent reversal, but it takes around 14+ frames to input the motion naked. Also, Gief's grab in SFIV)
4. The speed of the move and consequences of the way the controls just work naturally make it difficult, basically Erron's 21122

I don't think Jason's grab fits into any of those categories really. I don't think any command grabs in MKX do actually.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

I'm actually for this. When I mained him, I could pull it off most of the time, but I'd like to be able to do it 100% of the time. I would actually go back to playing him if this happened.

 

[Infinite]

Not to say that command grabs are the only arbitrarily verbose command.

Though for certain commands they are not arbitrarily difficult, they're as difficult as they need to be, and that's whats important. 21122 for Erron Black is frustrating, but just based on the speed of the punches and NRS's "dial in" system, they're difficult because that's just how it has to be for the move to work.

Pretty sure bicycle kick is a good example of a move that has extra motions tacked on 'just cuz' though.

So the question is, do grabs need to have that input to function as they should, or is it an extra button press 'just cuz'. I think in most cases it's the latter.

I think these are legitimate reasons for complex inputs:
1. You have limited controller space and inputs, so sometimes that extra motion is needed to differentiate.
2. Motions are often required so special inputs are affected properly by crossups.
3. Sometimes a move is meant to come out super fast when buffered, but to have some startup when not buffered (Shoryuken's in SFIV for example. 3 frame startup for excellent reversal, but it takes around 14+ frames to input the motion naked. Also, Gief's grab in SFIV)
4. The speed of the move and consequences of the way the controls just work naturally make it difficult, basically Erron's 21122

I don't think Jason's grab fits into any of those categories really. I don't think any command grabs in MKX do actually.

Pretty sure they made it 21122 because it's harder than say 21212, which would follow the correlated punches to buttons pressed. They also made it harder by requiring sequential presses with out breaks.

These "rules" are just not how things are done in the majority of fighting games, but I'm not going to argue against your opinion.

 

[kantboy-2]

His back breaker and air grab should not share motions on the same button. Put air grab on 3 and it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

His back breaker and air grab should not share motions on the same button. Put air grab on 3 and it shouldn't be a problem.

Or just use practice mode and learn how to do it properly?

 

[God Confirm]

You are complaining, most of us are just disagreeing. I like this kind of difficulty much more than tight links and I don't really think that input is unnatural to mkx.

Virtually every successful fighting game has difficult tech and difficult combos and tech make things much more interesting. Otherwise everyone would watch UMvC3 and get hype every five seconds when another dude is in an infinite or doing some super easy super.

I'm not complaining about, I hadn't made a post until I made the one observing TYM's response to someone asking for a changed input

This is just manufactured difficulty. There is nothing hype in watching someone execute a command grab. It's not dope like watching Sonic go for the risky max damage tight af corner combo, it's not hype like Reptile pushing someone to other side of the screen from behind the safety of a forceball, its not hype like Hat Trick converting off a neutral hat call back, it's just difficulty for the sake of it. I'm not saying remove the difficulty from the game, just that some inputs are needlessly dumb.

Regardless I'm not complaining about it, I don't really care. Just interesting to see TYM's elitist response this guy (not everyone in this thread but lol)

 

[xInfra Deadx]

I, uh, er, um...


What?

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

I'm not complaining about, I hadn't made a post until I made the one observing TYM's response to someone asking for a changed input

This is just manufactured difficulty. There is nothing hype in watching someone execute a command grab. It's not dope like watching Sonic go for the risky max damage tight af corner combo, it's not hype like Reptile pushing someone to other side of the screen from behind the safety of a forceball, its not hype like Hat Trick converting off a neutral hat call back, it's just difficulty for the sake of it. I'm not saying remove the difficulty from the game, just that some inputs are needlessly dumb.

Regardless I'm not complaining about it, I don't really care. Just interesting to see TYM's elitist response this guy (not everyone in this thread but lol)

So the elitist scum are the people who practice? Long ago I could not do dbf moves. Now I can. Practice works wonders