End of 2015 MKX Tier list - UK Edition

[SonicBOOM XS]

As much as I agree with your sentiment about discussion to the contrary, I believe anecdotal evidence holds a certain weight with regards to fighting games. Granted, you'd want recorded stuff more, like a set between two players that shows off the capabilities of a character, which will always be the best form of evidence. However, in the event that you cannot, such as when recalling practice sets where you discovered a new mechanic or the like, I think it holds water provided the person providing the evidence is of a certain caliber.

That's just my opinion though, I'd like for K&M to release follow-up videos showing characters in action and explaining why they were S or A or whatever.

My own personal opinion about the tier list is that the tier denominations suck, who makes a tier called S+? Just call it S (the cream of the crop, doesn't get better than this), A+ (extremely good and win easier but have a few problems), A (most of the cast, fairly balanced because their own certain toolkits give them equal opportunity to win), you can skip A- and go into B (good, but not as good as most of the cast) with Goro, Jacqui, and Ferra/Torr, with the final tier being C (don't pick NRS buff pls), with Jason and Kenshi.

Just my opinion.I don't think A+ should be the slot with the most characters, A should be.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

Of course I know that they train together. At the end of the day, Madzin is still just one guy. One guy can only have so much knowledge and might not be representative of every thing that a character can do.

Put it in these terms: In other, bigger FGC communities, you have more than just one or two guys on the level of a Madzin or a Brady. You have several. So because you have a larger pool of players all at that level, more knowledge and information can be gained.

When Ketchup and Mustard pointed out that they talk about who they play with in response to allegations that they don't know certain characters, while those players may be the best known, they are not the sum of every single player that plays the character. Like I said - everyone is unknown until they're discovered.

It's more convincing of an argument - to me - to break down the tools and talk about the data rather than name-dropping your sparring partners. Doing the latter kills the discussion flat. No new understanding or knowledge can be shared or exchanged with that argument. More than likely, less than 5% of anyone reading this thread will ever actually play Madzin offline, so what does that add to the discussion?

It reads like shorthand for, "Just take my word for it."

yes ok... but when you have someone like F0xy talking about sub zero, when he plays Madzin on a regular basis, their opinion matter a lot.

Madzin's been competing at high level with sub, he won vsfighting, competed in esl finals, evo, Nec, he's been playing against every top player who makes top 8 in tourneys.

basically he's been playing this game at the highest possible level with sub.

so sorry if i take Madzin's / F0xy's words over "random TYM guy #1"

 

[Dankster Morgan]

You have the right idea, but I think it should only be one S Tier. A+, A, and A- etc should follow with C the possible lowest for this game. I don't know what is going on in the new era, but S Tier is supposed to be reserved for game dominating characters. Characters with no weaknesses that don't lose to anyone. Kabal types. S+ would be actual broken characters like Tekken 4 Jin.

The only S Tier characters I would place there are Lao and Liu. Then A+ would be next. They are the only ones who either win MUs or just don't lose any, can answer anything, and have no weaknesses. But that would cause even more controversy because how dare I say Quan is not the best lol.

Lao is undoubtedly the best in the game. While we are at it, I'll run my opinions by you guys in this thread.

I'd like to give my uneducated opinion on the tier list. Don't want to make a thread because we have too many tier lists but I'll leave it here. At the very least I want to know if I'm on the right track to understanding it.
No order within a tier,
S+: Kung Lao, Quan Chi, Tanya, Tremor,
S: Jax, Predator, Liu Kang Cassie Cage
S-: Johnny Cage, D'Vorah, Sub-Zero
A+: Kung Jin, Sonya Blade, Shinnok, Takeda, Reptile, Kotal Kahn, Erron Black
A: Kitana, Scorpion, Mileena, Ferra/Torr, Kano
A-: Raiden, Goro
B: Jacqui Briggs, Ermac
C: Jason, Kenshi

Quoted from DJT's thread, weather there characters are S or A+ or what have you... are up for scrutiny, but this is the order I think they fall into.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Just my opinion.I don't think A+ should be the slot with the most characters, A should be.

That's a fair statement, it was just really hard to put almost all characters in A+ into the average category. I do feel like a huge amount of this cast is viable/better than just ok. But I get why it's confusing to have a tier list with the average tier placement not being the most filled.

 

[SaltShaker]

Lao is undoubtedly the best in the game. While we are at it, I'll run my opinions by you guys in this thread.

Quoted from DJT's thread, weather there characters are S or A+ or what have you... are up for scrutiny, but this is the order I think they fall into.

Mine would be very similar order wise lol.

 

[Rude]

yes ok... but when you have someone like F0xy talking about sub zero, when he plays Madzin on a regular basis, their opinion matter a lot.

Madzin's been competing at high level with sub, he won vsfighting, competed in esl finals, evo, Nec, he's been playing against every top player who makes top 8 in tourneys.

basically he's been playing this game at the highest possible level with sub.

so sorry if i take Madzin's / F0xy's words over "random TYM guy #1"

No one is saying Madzin isn't talented and no one is questioning his or Foxy's credentials. That's not what I take exception with.

The issue here is that it is a non-argument. Instead of going into detail and crafting an argument, he's circumventing that and falling back on being an "expert" by citing his experience.

The problem is, when you strip away the language what you get is that he's saying, "I'm an expert and you're not, just take my word for it."

Every one was a random at some point. Dragon was a random before playing offline. Saltface was unknown until he started playing in tournaments. Knowing what we do about them now, you'd safely call them an expert in their characters.

Now apply that to anyone who can't travel. Do we dismiss every one because they don't have a tournament resume? That'd be mighty silly. Could you imagine people blowing off Saltface in Injustice when he talked about Harley if he never could travel?

Instead of debating the credentials of the arguer, we should focus on the actual content provided.

 

[ArmedCalf]

@PND_Ketchup @PND_Mustard @UsedForGlue @Undeadjim @A F0xy Grampa

I listened to the whole thing - you guys make excellent points. I'm super tempted to pick up Mileena now just because Glue sold me on her. I have a question about Jacqui though, across all her variations would you guys ever her consider her A tier?

 

[PND_Ketchup]

@PND_Ketchup @PND_Mustard @UsedForGlue @Undeadjim @A F0xy Grampa

I listened to the whole thing - you guys make excellent points. I'm super tempted to pick up Mileena now just because Glue sold me on her. I have a question about Jacqui though, across all her variations would you guys ever her consider her A tier?

I think it would have to be full auto IMO, she just has the range she severely lacks in the other variations. Allowing her to have a more fundamentally strong game.

 

[GQJ]

No one is saying Madzin isn't talented and no one is questioning his or Foxy's credentials. That's not what I take exception with.

The issue here is that it is a non-argument. Instead of going into detail and crafting an argument, he's circumventing that and falling back on being an "expert" by citing his experience.

The problem is, when you strip away the language what you get is that he's saying, "I'm an expert and you're not, just take my word for it."

Every one was a random at some point. Dragon was a random before playing offline. Saltface was unknown until he started playing in tournaments. Knowing what we do about them now, you'd safely call them an expert in their characters.

Now apply that to anyone who can't travel. Do we dismiss every one because they don't have a tournament resume? That'd be mighty silly. Could you imagine people blowing off Saltface in Injustice when he talked about Harley if he never could travel?

Instead of debating the credentials of the arguer, we should focus on the actual content provided.

This is pretty fair, but at the same time it is the onus of the "random" user to prove their experience, especially since it is difficult to find thorough discussion in this thread. Of course there are exceptions (the D'Vorah and Kano discussions) but that was pretty much it.

 

[Phosferrax]

I'm talking f13 in neutral, he's too likely to just be jumped back on.

Surely when you put it like that then most of the cast is susceptible to getting jumped on.

 

[juicepouch]

what makes tremor better than jax? @A F0xy Grampa @Undeadjim @PND_Ketchup @PND_Mustard @UsedForGlue

 

[SaltFace NS]

No one is saying Madzin isn't talented and no one is questioning his or Foxy's credentials. That's not what I take exception with.

The issue here is that it is a non-argument. Instead of going into detail and crafting an argument, he's circumventing that and falling back on being an "expert" by citing his experience.

The problem is, when you strip away the language what you get is that he's saying, "I'm an expert and you're not, just take my word for it."

Every one was a random at some point. Dragon was a random before playing offline. Saltface was unknown until he started playing in tournaments. Knowing what we do about them now, you'd safely call them an expert in their characters.

Now apply that to anyone who can't travel. Do we dismiss every one because they don't have a tournament resume? That'd be mighty silly. Could you imagine people blowing off Saltface in Injustice when he talked about Harley if he never could travel?

Instead of debating the credentials of the arguer, we should focus on the actual content provided.

Wanna know something funny? In Injustice before I entered & got Top 8 at CEO creating that path of destruction with Harley & only Harley people blew me off as an idiot when I said she had the ability to win & that she was a zoner & spacing type character. It took my performance at a tournament before people started to listen to me.

 

[SonicBOOM XS]

That's a fair statement, it was just really hard to put almost all characters in A+ into the average category. I do feel like a huge amount of this cast is viable/better than just ok. But I get why it's confusing to have a tier list with the average tier placement not being the most filled.

The way I see it, A isn't necessarily the "average, jack of all trades" type of character, like you sad Kung Jin was. A is the tier with the characters that play the game most equally. These can literally be Kung Lao and Quan Chi levels of ridiculousness, but as long as there's people that are even better, then these guys are still A.

For me, A doesn't mean average in the sense of he's equal parts good and bad in the meta, A means the average in terms of these characters play equally well, their different tool kits allow each one to play the game in their own way while achieving roughly the same good results, whether or not they're viable or really viable or extremely viable.

That said, that's the sort of tier list I'd work with where A is considered the "average, 'pinnacle of balance'" type thing. It's your tier list and you do you on it. My favorite tier lists are the ones that disregard any one tier as a sort of "oh look pinnacle of balance" type of thing and just go in order from S to F, with each tier being occupied by characters that are better than the tier below them and worse than the tier above.

 

[Rude]

Sub Zero top tier? I thought Hunter Predator made Grandmaster irrelevant?

@UsedForGlue

:-p

 

[UsedForGlue]

Sub Zero top tier? I thought Hunter Predator made Grandmaster irrelevant?

@UsedForGlue

:-p

I can be wrong. Something, no one here will actually ever say.

 

[Rude]

I can be wrong. Something, no one here will actually ever say.

So they don't do jokes in the UK, huh?

 

[Sultani]

Wanna know something funny? In Injustice before I entered & got Top 8 at CEO creating that path of destruction with Harley & only Harley people blew me off as an idiot when I said she had the ability to win & that she was a zoner & spacing type character. It took my performance at a tournament before people started to listen to me.

lol.. It's like I've always said.. You can express an opinion here that's absolutely right and get blown up for 50 pages. Then if you go place top 8 at a major, come back and say the exact same thing, suddenly 1283918127378137812 people agree with you.

 

[Genei Jin]

Nice list. Some points are flat out contradictory though.

Someone mentioned that blood God shouldn't be winning and the only reason why blood God wins is because the game is still fairly new which makes sense hence the 2k15 tier list.

However at the same time, Mileena and Kano are placed super high because of their potential yet they haven't been dominant at all. If they are really all that upcoming, shouldn't they be ranked the way they are now in the 2k16 tier list instead? After you have a year to show progress and results.

Other than that, I'll say that Sonya and Kung Jin are too low and Kano and Mileena are too high.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

For those saying "Sub's too high, they don't know what they're talking about, Brady knows best etc..."
Here

 

[Jynks]

That's an anecdotal argument. At some point, everyone was unknown until they were discovered. All it serves to do - to me anyway - is for the arguer to dismiss the person instead of the argument.

Look I get what you are saying here, no one likes being ignored... on the other hand though it isn't to much to expect people to like to have some kind of confirmation that "random tym poster" knows what they are talking about. This is the internet. Anyone with a keyboard can type any old shit into it. A high profile player, who is proven in the torny scene has credibility that no scrub can ever have, regardless of how much lab time he puts in or how much he owns his brother at home.

 

[Rude]

Look I get what you are saying here, no one likes being ignored... on the other hand though it isn't to much to expect people to like to have some kind of confirmation that "random tym poster" knows what they are talking about. This is the internet. Anyone with a keyboard can type any old shit into it. A high profile player, who is proven in the torny scene has credibility that no scrub can ever have, regardless of how much lab time he puts in or how much he owns his brother at home.

You get the confirmation by the content of the argument - not based on who they are.

It's verbal shorthand for "take my word for it." It's a conversation killer that serves to address no actual talking points, furthers no one in the discussion's understanding and is straight-up bad debate.

If the goal is to present a case to convince someone of your level of correctness, "trust me, I'm a doctor(which is basically what the talking point is)" isn't a persuasive argument. You're not actually saying anything.

Did posters respond like shitheads? Sure. It's not right, but that's part of the risk you take when you offer your opinion in a public space. If you're not prepared to defend that opinion against negativity, then the opinion shouldn't be offered.

No subjective opinion should exist in a vacuum because of who is saying it.

Look at my Saltface example. Everyone blew him off even though he was correct. The man basically invented the character along with a few others, but if he had never traveled, the community would have continued to ignore him despite his information being correct.