General/Other - Blood God Blood for the Blood God! (Variant discussion)

[mattnin]

I CAN JUST SIT AND BLOCK ALL DAY AGAINST BLOOD GOD. SUNGOD HAS UNBLOCKABLE 50/50S

You can't block a throw and will have to tech at a very minimum.

 

[Qwark28]

You can't compare the two. Anyone can poke in between your strings unless you spend meter. Throws are 10f while tickthrows do 19%, are too fast to react to, need meter to punish and can be done off of nearly everything.

Sun God by far outdamages blood God. When your anti air conversion is 20-33% sun God does 40s off of a b1. Literally any conversion is done better by sun God.

When your 12% throw at -2 or neutral makes people poke your pseudo frametraps unless you spend bar, mine makes them also jump and spend resources just to get punished. The mindgame factor is incomparably sun God's.

 

[Santa_Destroyer]

I do have a tip for Necromancer. He will try hard to zone Blood God and then at mid screen he will hell spark, rinse wash repeat. My best advice here is to learn the timing. Shinnok can only fist-fiend so fast, in between those moves you can time it and run up and block, run and block and close the gap. If you're having a hard time learning this timing in match play, I suggest to head to the lab and set Shinnok to fist-fiend and learn that timing so you don't get caught.

Yeah that's what I thought. I guess there's no trick or something, just a bad MU to begin with.
Thanks though for replying, that was my first post

 

[mattnin]

You can't compare the two. Anyone can poke in between your strings unless you spend meter. Throws are 10f while tickthrows do 19%, are too fast to react to, need meter to punish and can be done off of nearly everything.

Sun God by far outdamages blood God. When your anti air conversion is 20-33% sun God does 40s off of a b1. Literally any conversion is done better by sun God.

When your 12% throw at -2 or neutral makes people poke your pseudo frametraps unless you spend bar, mine makes them also jump and spend resources just to get punished. The mindgame factor is incomparably sun God's.

Sun God has scary mind game and damage, there is no question but Blood God is no slouch when it comes to damage potential and he basically has to get killed twice. I guess I'm just no longer convinced anymore that the damage potential and mind games with Sun God is worth losing obsidian.

 

[mkl]

You can't compare the two. Anyone can poke in between your strings unless you spend meter. Throws are 10f while tickthrows do 19%, are too fast to react to, need meter to punish and can be done off of nearly everything.

Sun God by far outdamages blood God. When your anti air conversion is 20-33% sun God does 40s off of a b1. Literally any conversion is done better by sun God.

When your 12% throw at -2 or neutral makes people poke your pseudo frametraps unless you spend bar, mine makes them also jump and spend resources just to get punished. The mindgame factor is incomparably sun God's.

I definitely would not go as far as saying Sun God outdamages Blood God. 46% 10 frame punisher, 48% f2 combos, 47% njp combos, and can actually anti-air into totem combos. The only times that Sun God shines more in is stray hits like d1/b1/etc when the opponent is airborne. I guess you could also say he shines in how much easier his anti-air conversions for high damage are as well, but at the peak of both character's play this won't be a matter of discussion. And even then you might not have a level 3 and you'll do as much as Blood God is going to do (and less than War God most times). Blood God does more damage straight up but Sun God can do it more efficiently most times.

Blood God mains. Please never ever forget about d3, it has and forever will be your friend.

 

[Qwark28]

I definitely would not go as far as saying Sun God outdamages Blood God. 46% 10 frame punisher, 48% f2 combos, 47% njp combos, and can actually anti-air into totem combos. The only times that Sun God shines more in is stray hits like d1/b1/etc when the opponent is airborne. I guess you could also say he shines in how much easier his anti-air conversions for high damage are as well, but at the peak of both character's play this won't be a matter of discussion. And even then you might not have a level 3 and you'll do as much as Blood God is going to do (and less than War God most times). Blood God does more damage straight up but Sun God can do it more efficiently most times.

Blood God mains. Please never ever forget about d3, it has and forever will be your friend.

The damage you mentioned is the exact same as Sun god.

Anti air combos into totem also do the same damage Sun god does when he hits the exact same anti air. And I clearly stated that the situations Sun god far outdamages him is when it comes to stray hits, where he gets massive damage for virtually any move connecting. None of his other variations do that and none make the opponent antsy to move as much as it.

When I talk of anti air conversion instead of anti air punish, I am talking about catching with a B1, a D1, F1 etc.

In my experience, Sun god never does lower damage than war god and the same damage as blood god in the worst circumstances while he doesn't have to have a totem up that forbids his main buff ( obsidian ).

 

[SHAOLIN]

Blood God does more damage straight up but Sun God can do it more efficiently most times.

It basically boils down to mostly this when choosing between Blood God & Sun God,damage-wise.

 

[mkl]

The damage you mentioned is the exact same as Sun god.

Anti air combos into totem also do the same damage Sun god does when he hits the exact same anti air. And I clearly stated that the situations Sun god far outdamages him is when it comes to stray hits, where he gets massive damage for virtually any move connecting. None of his other variations do that and none make the opponent antsy to move as much as it.

When I talk of anti air conversion instead of anti air punish, I am talking about catching with a B1, a D1, F1 etc.

In my experience, Sun god never does lower damage than war god and the same damage as blood god in the worst circumstances while he doesn't have to have a totem up that forbids his main buff ( obsidian ).

Catching with b1, d1, and f1 is a conversion as well. Not sure where you're going with that. In fact, d3 is one of his best tools to punish jump attacks since it makes his hitbox fucked up. You seriously cannot say Sun God does more damage when literally all the staple launchers will do more damage in Blood God, some do 15% more than Sun God. But at the end of the day you said the tops Blood God had was 33% anti-air and that's just wrong.

 

[Santa_Destroyer]

I definitely would not go as far as saying Sun God outdamages Blood God. 46% 10 frame punisher, 48% f2 combos, 47% njp combos, and can actually anti-air into totem combos. The only times that Sun God shines more in is stray hits like d1/b1/etc when the opponent is airborne. I guess you could also say he shines in how much easier his anti-air conversions for high damage are as well, but at the peak of both character's play this won't be a matter of discussion. And even then you might not have a level 3 and you'll do as much as Blood God is going to do (and less than War God most times). Blood God does more damage straight up but Sun God can do it more efficiently most times.

Blood God mains. Please never ever forget about d3, it has and forever will be your friend.

Wow didn't know that!
Good tech thx man.

 

[Qwark28]

Catching with b1, d1, and f1 is a conversion as well. Not sure where you're going with that.

Yes... That's what I said.

Sun god far outdamages him is when it comes to stray hits, where he gets massive damage for virtually any move connecting. None of his other variations do that and none make the opponent antsy to move as much as it.

You seriously cannot say Sun God does more damage when literally all the staple launchers will do more damage in Blood God, some do 15% more than Sun God. But at the end of the day you said the tops Blood God had was 33% anti-air and that's just wrong.

I just said they do the same damage.

Sun god's bnb is 47% off of F2. 46% off of F1B2, 45/46 off of 114. Show me a higher number that's not "keep crystal out 100%, ignoring obsidian in case you land a lucky hit".

I gave numbers off of conversions, don't put words in my mouth.

I said he does 20-33% and that's exactly how much he does off of a B1 anti conversion, AKA hitting someone with B1 while they tried to jump away after a string or in neutral and got hit with it. A conversion means your opponent got hit during a point where you wouldn't neccesarily expect, in this scenario airborne by a normal, and you quickly convert the situation into a combo. That's what anti air conversion means, not "he jumped at me and I anti aired him".

B1 D1 B14 EX throw B14 sun choke does 41%
B1 B14 ex throw F2 B14 sun choke does 46%
Meterless B1 D1 B14 sun choke does 27%
D1 b14 sun choke does 26%

B1 D1 B14 EX throw B14 air throw does 35%
B1 B14 ex throw F2 B14 air throw does 39%
Meterless B1 D1 B14 air throw does 20%
D1 b14 air throw does 18%

B1 straight into b14 is also impractical because of height most of the time so adding a D1 makes it much more reliable. I trust you now understand how Sun god converts better?

 

[mkl]

Yes... That's what I said.

Sun God's njp does significantly less damage than Blood God's (40% vs. 47%)
f2 is 48% in BG and 47% in SG.
BG gets a raw crystal totem "mix-up" after both combos.
These are assuming you have a level 3.
What are you doing with f1b2 that gives Sun God 46%? (I have 42% with him as max)
I'd never go into b14 for anti-air (or even b1 which is vastly overrated but we'll get into that in a bit).

You're severely overrating Sun God's anti-air game and trying to force Blood God into Sun God's tiny boxes or just moving the goal posts where you see fit.

Blood God will always use d3 to anti-air. It's better than b1 in almost all circumstances outside of people jumping at you from far (which is retarded since I'll just trip guard them with f2 instead of b1ing). Until I have a life lead I will never obsidian unless it's matchup specific because crystal conversions are way too important since any touch = half life. Also, you need to get to level 3 before you start matching these numbers where as Blood God can just start a match with f1hitconfirmb2 into 46% at the start of a match. They're different characters so don't act like they're the same and do the same exact things.

 

[Qwark28]

Sun God's njp does significantly less damage than Blood God's (40% vs. 47%)
f2 is 48% in BG and 47% in SG.
BG gets a raw crystal totem "mix-up" after both combos.
What are you doing with f1b2 that gives Sun God 46%? (I have 42% with him as max)
I'd never go into b14 for anti-air.

You're severely overrating Sun God's anti-air game and trying to force Blood God into Sun God's tiny boxes or just moving the goal posts where you see fit.

Blood God will always use d3 to anti-air. It's better than b1 in almost all circumstances outside of people jumping at you from far (which is retarded since I'll just trip guard them with f2 instead of b1ing). Until I have a life lead I will never obsidian unless it's matchup specific because crystal conversions are way too important since any touch = half life. Also, you need to get to level 3 before you start matching these numbers where as Blood God can just start a match with f1hitconfirmb2 into 46% at the start of a match. They're different characters so don't act like they're the same and do the same exact things.

Sun god's NJP is 43% with NJP F2 S1 F2 B14 air throw B14 sun choke
Air throw is like +3 on hit so IDK how you're getting a free crystal totem mixup
You're right, checked F1B2 and it does 42% max.

So you're telling me that if you do 114 totem into B1 and your opponent wanted to jump and the B1 anti airs him you won't do a B14 combo? I also don't get how you trip guard with F2 as if it's a normal occurence, who jumps from so far so often that you have time to use an 18f move to do so?

I'm not acting like they're the same. I said Sun god has better offence and forces people to move more due to the sun choke, I advise you to re-read my previous posts.

I don't care what Blood god will use to anti air, this is the third time I'm repeating that I'm not talking about anti airs as in "he jumps in and I do this move to AA" but in "I frametrap into a move and he gets caught airborne / I run in B1 and catch him airborne".

"You're severely overrating Sun God's anti-air game and trying to force Blood God into Sun God's tiny boxes or just moving the goal posts where you see fit."

Meanwhile 3 posts later you still don't understand what I'm saying with B1 or have actually answered any of my arguments. I'm severely overrating it by saying sun choke converts much better?

If you still don't understand then I can't bother wasting more time trying to explain simple terms over and over again.

 

[mkl]

Sun god's NJP is 43% with NJP F2 S1 F2 B14 air throw B14 sun choke
Air throw is like +3 on hit so IDK how you're getting a free crystal totem mixup
You're right, checked F1B2 and it does 42% max.

So you're telling me that if you do 114 totem into B1 and your opponent wanted to jump and the B1 anti airs him you won't do a B14 combo? I also don't get how you trip guard with F2 as if it's a normal occurence, who jumps from so far so often that you have time to use an 18f move to do so?

I'm not acting like they're the same. I said Sun god has better offence and forces people to move more due to the sun choke, I advise you to re-read my previous posts.

I don't care what Blood god will use to anti air, this is the third time I'm repeating that I'm not talking about anti airs as in "he jumps in and I do this move to AA" but in "I frametrap into a move and he gets caught airborne / I run in B1 and catch him airborne".

"You're severely overrating Sun God's anti-air game and trying to force Blood God into Sun God's tiny boxes or just moving the goal posts where you see fit."

Meanwhile 3 posts later you still don't understand what I'm saying with B1 or have actually answered any of my arguments. I'm severely overrating it by saying sun choke converts much better?

If you still don't understand then I can't bother wasting more time trying to explain simple terms over and over again.

I end with uppercuts and run in. They're not free mixups (especially since Blood God doesn't have one) but he's in your face before they can press a button. Thus he can get hits for more damage with crystal out.

I'm specifically ignoring your b1 at +4 because it will get too theory fighter for me. But fuck, since we're humoring eachother.

Sun God 114df1 +4. He does b1 or sun choke. You can back dash both options. He does run b1 to cover the back dash and could get armored or poke out. Not even taking into account the multitude of OSes that can take care of this.

Blood God 114totem +5. He does b1 or throw. Same deal here.
But here's the kicker. Blood God has a fucking crystal down and if his b1 hits grounded or airborne he's going to equal SG's damage or better.

 

[Qwark28]

I end with uppercuts and run in. They're not free mixups (especially since Blood God doesn't have one) but he's in your face before they can press a button. Thus he can get hits for more damage with crystal out.

I'm specifically ignoring your b1 at +4 because it will get too theory fighter for me. But fuck, since we're humoring eachother.

Sun God 114df1 +4. He does b1 or sun choke. You can back dash both options. He does run b1 to cover the back dash and could get armored or poke out. Not even taking into account the multitude of OSes that can take care of this.

Blood God 114totem +5. He does b1 or throw. Same deal here.
But here's the kicker. Blood God has a fucking crystal down and if his b1 hits grounded or airborne he's going to equal SG's damage or better.

After 114 air throw you are +4

In my B1 metagame thread I said that half the characters in the game cannot backdash B1 afterwards and the rest cannot backdash B12, there is no run cancel involved. Some characters cannot punish sun choke if they backdash because they recover too slow, don't have a fast enough move or just don't have the range. These characters, surprisingly many, are forced to either armour or NJP. If they have a read then they will NJP so as to not waste the bar or not to do an EX move that barely does any damage. That's why people jump.

Can you list which OS beats the above?

And can you end a combo in D2, have them tech roll it and still put out a totem and be + enough to run in for pressure?

I agree with your point about a crystal out after 114, you do around 50%. Then comes the argument which was telling Mattnin, I have a command grab while you have a throw.

 

[mkl]

After 114 air throw you are +4

In my B1 metagame thread I said that half the characters in the game cannot backdash B1 afterwards and the rest cannot backdash B12, there is no run cancel involved. Some characters cannot punish sun choke if they backdash because they recover too slow, don't have a fast enough move or just don't have the range. These characters, surprisingly many, are forced to either armour or NJP. If they have a read then they will NJP so as to not waste the bar or not to do an EX move that barely does any damage. That's why people jump.

Can you list which OS beats the above?

And can you end a combo in D2, have them tech roll it and still put out a totem and be + enough to run in for pressure?

I agree with your point about a crystal out after 114, you do around 50%. Then comes the argument which was telling Mattnin, I have a command grab while you have a throw.

It goes waaaaay too character specific for me to list all this shit out as far as OSes. The throw is 16% vs. 19% which isn't that big of a deal in reality and that's if you have level 3. So they're not really that far apart. But Sun Choke is much better of a throw unless BG has a life lead.

And yeah rolls after the uppercut is still enough to be in their general area before they can press buttons. And if they're dumb enough to wakeup reversal with a crystal down they're deserving of death.

 

[Qwark28]

It goes waaaaay too character specific for me to list all this shit out as far as OSes. The throw is 16% vs. 19% which isn't that big of a deal in reality and that's if you have level 3. So they're not really that far apart. But Sun Choke is much better of a throw unless BG has a life lead.

And yeah rolls after the uppercut is still enough to be in their general area before they can press buttons. And if they're dumb enough to wakeup reversal with a crystal down they're deserving of death.

I'd argue it's not really about the damage difference but the ways that the throws are landed, I'd much rather pressure with a throw that can be cancelled from e.g 1 of 114 and forces people to move but that's the difference between them.

 

[TheRealOnlyGoonie]

Yes... That's what I said.

Sun god far outdamages him is when it comes to stray hits, where he gets massive damage for virtually any move connecting. None of his other variations do that and none make the opponent antsy to move as much as it.



I just said they do the same damage.

Sun god's bnb is 47% off of F2. 46% off of F1B2, 45/46 off of 114. Show me a higher number that's not "keep crystal out 100%, ignoring obsidian in case you land a lucky hit".

I gave numbers off of conversions, don't put words in my mouth.

I said he does 20-33% and that's exactly how much he does off of a B1 anti conversion, AKA hitting someone with B1 while they tried to jump away after a string or in neutral and got hit with it. A conversion means your opponent got hit during a point where you wouldn't neccesarily expect, in this scenario airborne by a normal, and you quickly convert the situation into a combo. That's what anti air conversion means, not "he jumped at me and I anti aired him".

B1 D1 B14 EX throw B14 sun choke does 41%
B1 B14 ex throw F2 B14 sun choke does 46%
Meterless B1 D1 B14 sun choke does 27%
D1 b14 sun choke does 26%

B1 D1 B14 EX throw B14 air throw does 35%
B1 B14 ex throw F2 B14 air throw does 39%
Meterless B1 D1 B14 air throw does 20%
D1 b14 air throw does 18%

B1 straight into b14 is also impractical because of height most of the time so adding a D1 makes it much more reliable. I trust you now understand how Sun god converts better?

How are you getting 46% off F1B2

 

[Qwark28]

How are you getting 46% off F1B2

Fixed it in a later post, 42% is the max for SG.

 

[TheRealOnlyGoonie]

Fixed it in a later post, 42% is the max for SG.

Ya I was going to say that be nuts.

 

[mkl]

I'd argue it's not really about the damage difference but the ways that the throws are landed, I'd much rather pressure with a throw that can be cancelled from e.g 1 of 114 and forces people to move but that's the difference between them.

I agree. I was mainly taking issue with you saying BG wasn't good shit when AAing and didn't see that this was focused on frame trap b1 discussion.

 

[Braindead]

B1 D1 B14 EX throw B14 sun choke does 41%
B1 B14 ex throw F2 B14 sun choke does 46%
Meterless B1 D1 B14 sun choke does 27%
D1 b14 sun choke does 26%

Add these 2 that I found, don't know if they're easier or more difficult than the ones you mentioned:

B1, 1, F2, B14 xx EX Air Throw, B14 xx Sun Choke, 43%
B1, 1, F2, B14 xx Sun Choke, 31% or 33%, forgot which one.


Also air throw is -3 on hit, not +3.

 

[mattnin]

Very awesome tech mkl, thank you for the AA. One more thing about Blood God, I believe there is still a good amount of tech to discover. There is very little use of blood totem in high end play and no setups currently relying on it. Blood totem has so much potential too. I've healed close to a quarter of my life at times with blood totem. Also, in the Son Dula matches in the video thread, he used parry on the final hit of a combo string while blocking. I'd sure like to understand how he knew parry would work there.

 

[Hellbringer]

Very awesome tech mkl, thank you for the AA. One more thing about Blood God, I believe there is still a good amount of tech to discover. There is very little use of blood totem in high end play and no setups currently relying on it. Blood totem has so much potential too. I've healed close to a quarter of my life at times with blood totem. Also, in the Son Dula matches in the video thread, he used parry on the final hit of a combo string while blocking. I'd sure like to understand how he knew parry would work there.

Its more a mindgame. For example i sometimes do b14~parry if i know they will armor if i do b14~mb pizza.

 

[Braindead]

Its more a mindgame. For example i sometimes do b14~parry if i know they will armor if i do b14~mb pizza.

Does that work?!

 

[Santa_Destroyer]

Its more a mindgame. For example i sometimes do b14~parry if i know they will armor if i do b14~mb pizza.

Also didn't knew about that, this thread is Kotally awesome! (sorry)
I like to do 114 totem parry. If they fall for it that's about 50% gone (with crystal totem).
Also little anti kotal tech I discoverd in a match angainst a friend of mine, Mileena is able to punish b14 ex pizza and b122 ex pizza with normal roll. She just low profiles it. Also I found it hard to punish a blocked roll with 114, since she drops down on block and is able to poke you out of it. so I recomend doing f1b4 totem etc or b122/b14 ex pizza or grab.