Match-Up Discussion - Johnny Cage Liu kang flame fists

[Wigy]

Just wondering if anybody had matchup experience here. This seems horrible, get zoned out badly and up close he has that silly chip pressure and he can safely armour out of anything

 

[lm Tweakk]

Cage is just so full of holes , seems like an incomplete character. Why is f34 -8 and non cancel-able , and jax has f21 which is even better range , cancel-able , and plus on block? It's just a classic case of his character is better than yours , in my opinion.

 

[lm Tweakk]

Besides that , my only tip against flame fist liu is that you can armor after he does his bycicle fist shit.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Just wondering if anybody had matchup experience here. This seems horrible, get zoned out badly and up close he has that silly chip pressure and he can safely armour out of anything

First off, memorize what F2,1,3 looks like. It's the only string JC can't interrupt the Shaolin Flame cancel. You can armor out, or back dash any other string into Shaolin Flame.

Windmill punches is a bill. Learn the timing of how long the special lasts because no matter how Liu 2 in 1 cancels that move, you can armor through the ender.

Like all version of Kang, block low. He has no good combo starting overheads. Learn 1,1,3. When you see it coming you can back dash or armor through the overhead 3. Easy mode...

The real problem is the zoning and the chip. Up close I can confidently say JC wins. Far away you can't touch Kang. By the time you get in youll lose 10-15% in chip, and he will have gained a bar. He will have breakers often which sucks for Cage because getting a combo off with him is hard enough as it is.

You have to get in on him and not let up. You can't give him an opportunity to get away. A good Kang will zone 80% of the time and kick your ass.

Remember this specifically...all Kang's specials except the overhead attack are f3 punishable. When you're in range for f3 you have to make it count. This is where you want to be. Space him out and hit him hard.

 

[Wigy]

First off, memorize what F2,1,3 looks like. It's the only string JC can't interrupt the Shaolin Flame cancel. You can armor out, or back dash any other string into Shaolin Flame.

Windmill punches is a bill. Learn the timing of how long the special lasts because no matter how Liu 2 in 1 cancels that move, you can armor through the ender.

Like all version of Kang, block low. He has no good combo starting overheads. Learn 1,1,3. When you see it coming you can back dash or armor through the overhead 3. Easy mode...

The real problem is the zoning and the chip. Up close I can confidently say JC wins. Far away you can't touch Kang. By the time you get in youll lose 10-15% in chip, and he will have gained a bar. He will have breakers often which sucks for Cage because getting a combo off with him is hard enough as it is.

You have to get in on him and not let up. You can't give him an opportunity to get away. A good Kang will zone 80% of the time and kick your ass.

Remember this specifically...all Kang's specials except the overhead attack are f3 punishable. When you're in range for f3 you have to make it count. This is where you want to be. Space him out and hit him hard.

I tried to interrupt the flame hand cancel after and he does bicycle punch lol. Also, he uses dragon parry at the end of his bicycle punches to punish any interruptions which means all i can do is d4.

I get that its all a guessing/read game, but i barely even feel at advantage when im close and fullscreen is horrible.

He can armour through everything safely.

And run in d4 isn't as good in this matchup cause of the fireballs.

Jump ins are tricky cause JC has one of the worst JIP's in the game, and liu kang has arguably one of the best uppercuts.

Really helpful advice though.

Can i interrupt b12 shaolin flame with 113 or just armour?

Also just need to work on my punishes barely ever punish his dragon kick. Really tricky online.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I tried to interrupt the flame hand cancel after and he does bicycle punch lol. Also, he uses dragon parry at the end of his bicycle punches to punish any interruptions which means all i can do is d4.

I get that its all a guessing/read game, but i barely even feel at advantage when im close and fullscreen is horrible.

He can armour through everything safely.

And run in d4 isn't as good in this matchup cause of the fireballs.

Jump ins are tricky cause JC has one of the worst JIP's in the game, and liu kang has arguably one of the best uppercuts.

Really helpful advice though.

Can i interrupt b12 shaolin flame with 113 or just armour?

Also just need to work on my punishes barely ever punish his dragon kick. Really tricky online.

You can absolutely interrupt him after windmill punches into shaolin flame. Even the EX version. If he's doing the parry that's smart until it's not. He might train you into thinking it's ok to armor through his shit, and then he'll use parry, or vice versa. Parry is incredibly punishable once you read it. It hangs out there for like 2 seconds, and isn't active after a few short frames. It's basically like he's asking to get punished.

D4 is still really good against Kang. It's a better footsie tool than anything he has. Plus, you should be more interested in using F3 at that range. Then you can either do a mimic cancel shadow kick if youre SDJC, or shadow kick run cancel if you're A-List. If you're playing Fisticuffs, please dont. Also, if he's doing a low fire ball at that range you best be jumping in for full combo. No good Kang will be firing off a low fireball when you're within jump in range.

You can SOMETIMES interrupt B12~SF with 113. It depends on what he follows up with. I wouldnt try it though. He'll most likely beat you out of it. It's just a better idea to always armor through shaolin fist if Kang starts his bullshit with anything other than F2,1,3

Tonight is my local night and we have a guy who mained Dragon Fire Kang. He's since switched to Flame Fist. I'll report back.

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

n

You can absolutely interrupt him after windmill punches into shaolin flame. Even the EX version. If he's doing the parry that's smart until it's not. He might train you into thinking it's ok to armor through his shit, and then he'll use parry, or vice versa. Parry is incredibly punishable once you read it. It hangs out there for like 2 seconds, and isn't active after a few short frames. It's basically like he's asking to get punished.

D4 is still really good against Kang. It's a better footsie tool than anything he has. Plus, you should be more interested in using F3 at that range. Then you can either do a mimic cancel shadow kick if youre SDJC, or shadow kick run cancel if you're A-List. If you're playing Fisticuffs, please dont. Also, if he's doing a low fire ball at that range you best be jumping in for full combo. No good Kang will be firing off a low fireball when you're within jump in range.

You can SOMETIMES interrupt B12~SF with 113. It depends on what he follows up with. I wouldnt try it though. He'll most likely beat you out of it. It's just a better idea to always armor through shaolin fist if Kang starts his bullshit with anything other than F2,1,3

Tonight is my local night and we have a guy who mained Dragon Fire Kang. He's since switched to Flame Fist. I'll report back.

no offense dude but ur putting a lot! of wrong things about liu kang up here not good advice for the mu

 

[Name v.5.0]

n

no offense dude but ur putting a lot! of wrong things about liu kang up here not good advice for the mu

Fill me in. What's not correct? The theory fighting parts, or the factual information? By saying "a lot" you're saying basically everything I've said is wrong.

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

so liu kang has 111. 112 . f44 . f213 . 44 and b34 . all are mega plus . 112 is plus 9 or 10 also make it a true block string if done correct . you cant backdash out of any of these strings comnected too shaolin flame else u will / can be punished by b12 for a full combo vs you . if you try armour then your going to be hit out of it and again full combo punished.

b12 , f12 are lius main negative shaolin flame strings and can be standing normalled out of if i try to continue pressure after the sf. then if lou knows ur going to continue pressure then he can do for example b12 sf ex wp and it will beat your armour as sf with wp links together for fastest speed for it too come out

and 113 string . dont be risky and armour through . us kang can just do 112 wp combo starter it leaves u standing then do another 12% chip on you making it like 48% damage and if you block 112sf then we can continue into b12 continue pressure for kang.

sorry i dont know cage well but i main liu kang and i wont get into the windmillpunch ender stuff at the moment

 

[Name v.5.0]

so liu kang has 111. 112 . f44 . f213 . 44 and b34 . all are mega plus . 112 is plus 9 or 10 also make it a true block string if done correct . you cant backdash out of any of these strings comnected too shaolin flame else u will / can be punished by b12 for a full combo vs you . if you try armour then your going to be hit out of it and again full combo punished.

b12 , f12 are lius main negative shaolin flame strings and can be standing normalled out of if i try to continue pressure after the sf. then if lou knows ur going to continue pressure then he can do for example b12 sf ex wp and it will beat your armour as sf with wp links together for fastest speed for it too come out

and 113 string . dont be risky and armour through . us kang can just do 112 wp combo starter (hitconfirmed 112) it leaves u standing then do another 12% chip on you making it like 48% damage and if you block 112sf then we can continue into b12 continue pressure for kang.

sorry i dont know cage well but i main liu kang and i wont get into the windmillpunch ender stuff at the moment

Interesting. When testing 111 and F44 against reversal nutcracker I remember the nutcracker winning out. Even with a follow up B12. Maybe my timing wasn't good enough. I will test this more tonight.

As for the rest of what you're saying...You make it sound like JC should just stand still and take 50% chip each round. I wanted to present options to this guy instead of just "block everything". Lol.

"a lot wrong" was an overstatement.

 

[Wigy]

Interesting. When testing 111 and F44 against reversal nutcracker I remember the nutcracker winning out. Even with a follow up B12. Maybe my timing wasn't good enough. I will test this more tonight.

As for the rest of what you're saying...You make it sound like JC should just stand still and take 50% chip each round. I wanted to present options to this guy instead of just "block everything". Lol.

"a lot wrong" was an overstatement.

Yeah there is a horrible mind game after every shaolin flame cancel cause ex BP after will beat out any of JC's option except backdash or crossover JIP.

Basically as long as he has meter, which he builds plenty of, you are getting chipped and made to guess, really doesn't feel rewarding getting in.

Need to work on my counterzoning and footwork with jumps etc

Think i was being forced into getting hit by more of the zoning than i should have out of frustration.

I basically have to use a-list because f3 clone cancel into anything can be armoured out with a shadow kick trade thats against my favour.

I'll upload some match footage when i can

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

i

Interesting. When testing 111 and F44 against reversal nutcracker I remember the nutcracker winning out. Even with a follow up B12. Maybe my timing wasn't good enough. I will test this more tonight.

As for the rest of what you're saying...You make it sound like JC should just stand still and take 50% chip each round. I wanted to present options to this guy instead of just "block everything". Lol.

"a lot wrong" was an overstatement.

im sorry . what exactly have you said that is useful then? , i just took away the pressure options that you said about. you can try backdash or armour out and youll lose nearly half your health . you said wait to punish his parry at the end of wp. then liu can just end in sf continue pressure. but if you think that then can np or standing normal punish. but kang can just end wp in dragons roar ex to make safe. but then you can delay your np to punish ex dragons roar. but then kang can parry/end in dragons roar. its a circle. you said f3 punishes all his specials except his overhead special. im guessing your talking about dragons roar db2 which is a mid . but yehs good advice that everyother special can be punished with f3 agreed (in flame fist) and you said you can d4 with cage . and to jump in too punish his low fireballs. ive covered everything else you said. so a "a lot" of what you said is a correct statement. im just tryin to help you . i dont want wrong info and see you guys getting punished for being misinformed . sorry i dont mean to have a go im just correcting and if your on xboxone it would be good to go over the mu with you? so we can play and maybe find more stuff . i need more cage experience too

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

also kang shouldn't be too bad up close seeing as your fastest standing normal is 9 and 8 frame poke . so 111 without sf into b12 is a trap on its own and other traps/gimmicks hes got up close but thats for a different section on lius pressure . safe 6 frame high starter / hit confirmable into combo. 8 frame s1 . 9 frame mid hit confirmable into combo etc .

 

[Name v.5.0]

i

im sorry . what exactly have you said that is useful then? , i just took away the pressure options that you said about. you can try backdash or armour out and youll lose nearly half your health .you said wait to punish his parry at the end of wp. then liu can just end in sf continue pressure. but if you think that then can np or standing normal punish. but kang can just end wp in dragons roar ex to make safe. but then you can delay your np to punish ex dragons roar. but then kang can parry/end in dragons roar. its a circle. you said f3 punishes all his specials except his overhead special. im guessing your talking about dragons roar db2 which is a mid . but yehs good advice that everyother special can be punished with f3 agreed (in flame fist) and you said you can d4 with cage . and to jump in too punish his low fireballs. ive covered everything else you said. so a "a lot" of what you said is a correct statement. im just tryin to help you . i dont want wrong info and see you guys getting punished for being misinformed . sorry i dont mean to have a go im just correcting and if your on xboxone it would be good to go over the mu with you? so we can play and maybe find more stuff . i need more cage experience too

Dude, yes, there's options for EVERY situation. If you dont give them some kind of idea on what to do they'll just eat shit all day. I cant exactly tell him that after WMP He should just stand there and wait to be pressured further. Ya know what I mean? I wasnt about to write him a book about all the options of Liu Kang. I was giving him a simple run down on some of what works. We need guys like you to come in and tell us more directly what works.

I really wish I could play you but I'm on PS4 :'(

 

[mrKrucifix]

The other day I played a long set of mostly A-List vs Flame Fist vs a friend of mine, and (if I'm remembering correctly) he said you can neutral jump out of all of the Enders after windmill punch except for low and high fireball.

I haven't had a chance to actually test this out yet, but I'd say it's definitely worth looking into. I'm also curious to see if it would even work with Johnny's floaty jump.

 

[Frosted 57]

The other day I played a long set of mostly A-List vs Flame Fist vs a friend of mine, and (if I'm remembering correctly) he said you can neutral jump out of all of the Enders after windmill punch except for low and high fireball.

You can't do that. Neutral jump does not avoid anything. I don't know about other characters but Cage's jumping hurtbox is HUGE. You can jump forward or backward to avoid Dragon's Roar but that is it. Any other special will hit you no matter how you try and jump while SF cancel allows him to anti-air you. Any follow up will also catch back dash. Attempting to armor through is also risky since he can parry to make you waste your bar and take either 13 or 21%, or he can just use his armor which will beat yours(Though you both will take damage). That is what makes windmill punch so dangerous, not that it is so safe but that it has options that are capable beating almost anything.

I don't have any real advice at this point since it is so new. I have found the matchup tough though due to FF's fireball game, his 6 frame safe combo starter, and the fact that his combos can lead to good damage and a +6 standing reset. I mean his f44 leads to 36% and his f1 leads to 29% safely and 33% as a punish, all three of which are meterless standing resets.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Alright @Wigy ...reporting back like I said I would.

@xarakamaka was right about 111, 112, f44, f213, 44, and b34. They are plus enough to follow up with B1,2. The links on 111, F44, and B34 are damn tight though. What I found out was that it hardly matters. I was being tricked left and right. The guy at my local wouldn't always activate Shaolin Fist and sometimes would just parry. So even when you think you might be able to armor through, BOOM, parry....That got annoying. Especially since I main Stunt Double which for some dumb fucking reason loses it's mimics upon being parried. Along with that, like any a lot of characters there were times he would end strings and you would feel like it was your turn and then he'd just armor out with EXWMP and hit me for like 40+.

You can stand there and wait for parry and if you see it, it's not to hard to full combo punish. He can still end with Dragons Roar or sometimes low fireball. Not too bad to deal with at all.

You can still out footsie Kang. So, yeah, there's that.

The real issue for Cage really is the zoning. Guy I played with typically saved a bar, and would zone me out. It's MKX so you dont stay out forever but he would wait for me to be within F3, D4 range and then just pop EXWMP or EX Dragons Roar. Sometimes it'll shake out for him, sometimes for you. As a Stunt Double Johnny clones are fucking useless in zoning against characters like Kang because they're bugged. You cant trade them with Liu's fireballs. Plz fix NRS...

After playing a LONG set and discussing the MU, I feel this MU is NOT in SDJC's favor. Kang wins the range game. Up close it's more even, but Kang stole my shadow mimics more often than I was expecting. Without those, JC is neutered, and loses his pressure and tricks. Mix in that shit with amazing chipping and meter building Kang has and it just doesn't seem like a good MU for SDJC.

 

[smokey]

@Name v.5.0 ; My notes on SD vs FF as i play this match offline every week. Not got anything specific off the top of my head, but hopefully can input something useful. Before the patch happened I think FF was Lius best variation and against stunt double when both players are smart and know the matchup it is among the most read-based matchups going. You rely on mids, he can parry mid things and you lose your mimics. D4 and standing around at + frames become standard practice when FF knows whats up as even throws lose to the parry, and standing around waiting for it is giving him chances to reverse pressure. Its a guess of when/if he is going to parry all the time during your pressure, and also his walk speed and low fireballs can make getting near him a pain more than most characters. Clones go away when you get parried as well so theres some true liu kang bullshit tech for anyone who didnt already know lol... That was before Liu got silly though.

Now with the buffs he gets a hell of a lot of meter and has a ton of crazy block pressure, he can use his own pressure strings to set up parrys and you have to start using d4/d3 to low profile his dragon roars and get him off you and he can still just throw out an armoured move making you second guess every frame trap that you do, and still can set up ways to gain meter doing so. Before he couldnt get much frame advantage close and his mixups were limited because of it, came down a lot to if he wants to let you EX nut him or if he wants to play patient and give up pressure to bait it, now the blockstrings are a lot tighter and EX nut cant come out after some strings, he can just bully you when hes close. I dont know how intentional the frame advantage from shaolin flame cancels was, that seems a little far-fetched to be able to turn on a chip/punch buff and do a blockstring using it and staying safe. I like the WP drive cancels, theres a fun mindgame there to be explored, its just in his current state, any blocked hit for him is some near guaranteed chip which is better than fisticuffs with the buff active, or alternatively can get + frames and keep pressuring you that way, its very rough to be in any kind of position now against liu as he can zone you, has solid ways of dealing with your offense and forces you to respect everything, and if you dont then bye bye clones and over 1/3rd of your health.

Edit; tldr- Its in FF favour over stunt double, zoning and good walk speed at range, a parry, meter building, better chip and removing your clones makes the upclose game shitty too.

 

[Name v.5.0]

@Name v.5.0 ; My notes on SD vs FF as i play this match offline every week. Not got anything specific off the top of my head, but hopefully can input something useful. Before the patch happened I think FF was Lius best variation and against stunt double when both players are smart and know the matchup it is among the most read-based matchups going. You rely on mids, he can parry mid things and you lose your mimics. D4 and standing around at + frames become standard practice when FF knows whats up as even throws lose to the parry, and standing around waiting for it is giving him chances to reverse pressure. Its a guess of when/if he is going to parry all the time during your pressure, and also his walk speed and low fireballs can make getting near him a pain more than most characters. Clones go away when you get parried as well so theres some true liu kang bullshit tech for anyone who didnt already know lol... That was before Liu got silly though.

Now with the buffs he gets a hell of a lot of meter and has a ton of crazy block pressure, he can use his own pressure strings to set up parrys and you have to start using d4/d3 to low profile his dragon roars and get him off you and he can still just throw out an armoured move making you second guess every frame trap that you do, and still can set up ways to gain meter doing so. Before he couldnt get much frame advantage close and his mixups were limited because of it, came down a lot to if he wants to let you EX nut him or if he wants to play patient and give up pressure to bait it, now the blockstrings are a lot tighter and EX nut cant come out after some strings, he can just bully you when hes close. I dont know how intentional the frame advantage from shaolin flame cancels was, that seems a little far-fetched to be able to turn on a chip/punch buff and do a blockstring using it and staying safe. I like the WP drive cancels, theres a fun mindgame there to be explored, its just in his current state, any blocked hit for him is some near guaranteed chip which is better than fisticuffs with the buff active, or alternatively can get + frames and keep pressuring you that way, its very rough to be in any kind of position now against liu as he can zone you, has solid ways of dealing with your offense and forces you to respect everything, and if you dont then bye bye clones and over 1/3rd of your health.

You hit the nail on the head.

If SDJC wasn't bugged out the ass with whiffing mids, non trading clones, and mimics lost after parry I feel this would be a bit more even. I wonder how A-List does...I cant imagine it's much better.

 

[Wigy]

Truely horrible matchup tbh

way too much safe armour

 

[smokey]

You hit the nail on the head.

If SDJC wasn't bugged out the ass with whiffing mids, non trading clones, and mimics lost after parry I feel this would be a bit more even. I wonder how A-List does...I cant imagine it's much better.

Mimics going after parry and xrays is annoying, whiffing mids is a bit up in the air with me at the moment, 114 is nice but I get by without it well enough. Trying to trade clones with liu fireball is a death sentence, his buffed fireball does too much damage to let hit you. Work your way in with the intention of cornering him and take the chip blocking fireballs and move up. Outside cage f3 range he can really lay on the pressure with low fireball/b2 space and his backwalk speed means you cant jump or you get knocked down at best or trip guarded, no point trying that. Its all just patience with getting in on him and making the calls on the parry and windmill punch ender now. I dont think they will keep shaolin flame the way it is though, so we might get let off a bit with a patch.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Mimics going after parry and xrays is annoying, whiffing mids is a bit up in the air with me at the moment, 114 is nice but I get by without it well enough. Trying to trade clones with liu fireball is a death sentence, his buffed fireball does too much damage to let hit you. Work your way in with the intention of cornering him and take the chip blocking fireballs and move up. Outside cage f3 range he can really lay on the pressure with low fireball/b2 space and his backwalk speed means you cant jump or you get knocked down at best or trip guarded, no point trying that. Its all just patience with getting in on him and making the calls on the parry and windmill punch ender now. I dont think they will keep shaolin flame the way it is though, so we might get let off a bit with a patch.

Dude, and if the Liu player knows the gaps in getting mimics going you're fucked. I cant simply F3~call mimics~mimic shadow kick without him EXing WMP. Just getting them out is tough, and then you just get parried. FUCK.

I agree, they will nerf this shit.

 

[smokey]

Dude, and if the Liu player knows the gaps in getting mimics going you're fucked. I cant simply F3~call mimics~mimic shadow kick without him EXing WMP. Just getting them out is tough, and then you just get parried. FUCK.

I agree, they will nerf this shit.

Thats not a LK thing, thats your opponent. Doing cancels to mimics with gaps will get you destroyed against anyone who knows the matchup and is using a character with armour, and others even worse because they can do it without meter. This same Liu Kang player also plays mileena and if you wanna try get mimics up without getting rolled instantly, you use d4 and make god damn sure it hits.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Thats not a LK thing, thats your opponent. Doing cancels to mimics with gaps will get you destroyed against anyone who knows the matchup and is using a character with armour, and others even worse because they can do it without meter. This same Liu Kang player also plays mileena and if you wanna try get mimics up without getting rolled instantly, you use d4 and make god damn sure it hits.

No, I understand that. But not a lot of people know the holes yet. So you can abuse the lack of MU knowledge. That's JC's secret tech right now. LOL.

 

[smokey]

No, I understand that. But not a lot of people know the holes yet. So you can abuse the lack of MU knowledge. That's JC's secret tech right now. LOL.

Thats good for you i guess, but hoping your opponent doesnt know the matchup really is not a good approach to this game lol