How to beat mixups that are fast on startup and have similar frames on startup?

[.Solo.]

I have no idea how to counter this and i have a pretty high winrate too but for example when a Johnny Cage just does 11 -> overhead or 11 -> low i can't beat the pressure. Is there any way to counter this?

For example i was the raiden in this video (It's a bit old and i have improved since then):

 

[coolwhip]

Armor if possible, poke if possible, backdash if the backdash isn't beaten by whatever normal he does, or simply block and take the guess.

 

[Braindead]

In this case just block low and mash the throw button.

 

[.Solo.]

Armor if possible, poke if possible, backdash if the backdash isn't beaten by whatever normal he does, or simply block and take the guess.

I tried in the video, but i found it really difficult to beat even then.

 

[coolwhip]

Just watched the video. Keep in mind, Cage's 113 is a block string, so after you see 11 you have to fuzzy guard by blocking low. What he was doing to mix you up is 11 stagger then go into f2, so if your reactions are on point, you can armor in between, among other things.

 

[coolwhip]

I tried in the video, but i found it really difficult to beat even then.

You're either not doing it on point or, more likely, online lag is a factor.

 

[.Solo.]

Just watched the video. Keep in mind, Cage's 113 is a block string, so after you see 11 you have to fuzzy guard by blocking low. What he was doing to mix you up is 11 stagger then go into f2, so if your reactions are on point, you can armor in between, among other things.

What is fuzzy guarding i if i may ask? thanks for the advice.

 

[coolwhip]

What is fuzzy guarding i if i may ask? thanks for the advice.

In a nutshell, going from a state of blocking high into blocking low, or vice versa. That's the gist of it.

 

[RyuKazuya]

dat johnny player knows what he is doing^^
well you rly gotta get the right guess. after 11 you can d1 or armour
after 113 just wait it is -23 if he doesnt cancel. if he cancels with nutcracker you can punish it since it is unsafe too.
after the overhead f24 you can poke out of it since it is -5. That means his pressure is actually over and you can poke out if he does not calm his ass down. But be careful. Sometimes we throw out a f243! if the overhead is blocked. it is -6 if you block. if you dont you get pushed closer to the corner.

another thing you have to be aware of is that us jc players also use a mixup as follows 11 throw. you can also poke out of it but after being conditioned it is damn hard ^^

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

What is fuzzy guarding i if i may ask? thanks for the advice.

lets say for example there is a low that is 7 frames and an over head that is 20 frames, now the 7 frames is unreactable and the 20 frames is reactable, fuzzy guarding in mortal kombat specifically would be blocking low first and once you know the low isnt coming out then you block high. it reduces guessing. however with the subject of the thread in 50/50s, then you have to just guess and hope you guess right or in some cases depending on your armored move and their 50/50 then you can armor out of it. the best thing you can do is to learn the other players habits by playing them a lot, see exactly how they play and you will be able to make an educated guess rather than a shot in the dark. or even better, keep yourself from getting in the situation in the first place which obviously, is preferred

 

[stamatis]

Uppercut them at your guess!

 

[loogie]

In a nutshell, going from a state of blocking high into blocking low, or vice versa. That's the gist of it.

that's not fuzzy guarding, 113 is not fuzzy guard-able, 11 is not overhead just the 3 is a low. so you could just advise and say block the 113 with a low blk.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

If I played Raiden and I knew a Cage player was gonna stagger 11, I'd F12 them.

 

[coolwhip]

that's not fuzzy guarding, 113 is not fuzzy guard-able, 11 is not overhead just the 3 is a low. so you could just advise and say block the 113 with a low blk.

Umm, here is what I said: "Keep in mind, Cage's 113 is a block string, so after you see 11 you have to fuzzy guard by blocking low. "

Now did you watch the video? There were times where he was blocking the string high, so what I'm saying is if you're blocking high and you see 11, then you move into a crouching state to block the 3, which is a low, and therefore, fuzzy guard it.

Unless you're advising that he just blocks low from the beginning against Cage, which is a good way to eat f2's all day.

 

[loogie]

Umm, here is what I said: "Keep in mind, Cage's 113 is a block string, so after you see 11 you have to fuzzy guard by blocking low. "

Now did you watch the video? There were times where he was blocking the string high, so what I'm saying is if you're blocking high and you see 11, then you move into a crouching state to block the 3, which is a low, and therefore, fuzzy guard it.

Unless you're advising that he just blocks low from the beginning against Cage, which is a good way to eat f2's all day.

you fuzzy guard a low to overhead or overhead to low ... there is no need to fuzzy guard a 113 which is a low block.
I did watch the vid, and the cage player was staggering the 11 and went for an overhead.... that's not exactly a fuzzy guard situation.
your advice could be something like this:
- check frame data on his 11 on block
- check startup frames on his f2
- if you read that he is going for it (11 stagger into f2), you can interrupt with a normal or armor

I hope this makes it clear for you and for the poster so he gets the right info, as the situation is not for a fuzzy guard.

 

[coolwhip]

you fuzzy guard a low to overhead or overhead to low ... there is no need to fuzzy guard a 113 which is a low block.
I did watch the vid, and the cage player was staggering the 11 and went for an overhead.... that's not exactly a fuzzy guard situation.
your advice could be something like this:
- check frame data on his 11 on block
- check startup frames on his f2
- if you read that he is going for it (11 stagger into f2), you can interrupt with a normal or armor

I hope this makes it clear for you and for the poster so he gets the right info, as the situation is not for a fuzzy guard.

IIf you're standing blocking and you see 11 coming and then you crouch, you're basically fuzzy guarding, even if 11 is not an overhead. Fuzzy guard means going from a high block state to a crouch state or vice versa. It doesn't mean the first hit has to be an overhead and then you go to a low for it to be considered a fuzzy guard.

Also the advice you just gave is literally the advice I initially gave. Here it is:

"Armor if possible, poke if possible, backdash if the backdash isn't beaten by whatever normal he does, or simply block and take the guess."

"What he was doing to mix you up is 11 stagger then go into f2, so if your reactions are on point, you can armor in between, among other things."

You're literally repeating what I said.

 

[Shadow316]

Fuzzy guard means going from a high block state to a crouch state or vice versa.

Me stand blocking and pressing down over and over is not me fuzzy guarding.

An example of fuzzy guarding from MK9 is Scorpion; When you're blocking high, you fuzzy the low, your character is in stand block but the low is blocked. Or vice versa.

EDIT: The answer from this thread pretty much sums it up: http://testyourmight.com/threads/mk9-fuzzy-guard.9732/

 

[coolwhip]

Me stand blocking and pressing down over and over is not me fuzzy guarding.

An example of fuzzy guarding from MK9 is Scorpion; When you're blocking high, you fuzzy the low, your character is in stand block but the low is blocked. Or vice versa.

EDIT: The answer from this thread pretty much sums it up: http://testyourmight.com/threads/mk9-fuzzy-guard.9732/

Yes, because fuzzy guarding is traditionally used when even though your character's animation might be in stand block or crouch block, you're blocking the opposite direction (so basically the animation is still in crouch block but you're blocking high, or vice versa). I'm aware of that.

 

[loogie]

IIf you're standing blocking and you see 11 coming and then you crouch, you're basically fuzzy guarding, even if 11 is not an overhead. Fuzzy guard means going from a high block state to a crouch state or vice versa. It doesn't mean the first hit has to be an overhead and then you go to a low for it to be considered a fuzzy guard.

Also the advice you just gave is literally the advice I initially gave. Here it is:

"Armor if possible, poke if possible, backdash if the backdash isn't beaten by whatever normal he does, or simply block and take the guess."

"What he was doing to mix you up is 11 stagger then go into f2, so if your reactions are on point, you can armor in between, among other things."

You're literally repeating what I said.

not really
@MrProfDrPepper @Shadow316 explained it very clearly what fuzzy guarding is. in this particular situation that the OP is posting, there is no fuzzy guard... that's my point. you used it out of place.
it's not about reactions either, it's about the 'read'.
if you 'read' he's going for f2 after a 11 then interrupt.
And the 4 options that you gave is basically a trivial response, why don't you try these options you just gave in practice mode and maybe come back with the best solution for the OP.
I'll help you: a) check frame data on 11 string b) check startup on f2 c) try each of the 4 options

 

[coolwhip]

not really
@MrProfDrPepper @Shadow316 explained it very clearly what fuzzy guarding is. in this particular situation that the OP is posting, there is no fuzzy guard... that's my point. you used it out of place.
it's not about reactions either, it's about the 'read'.
if you 'read' he's going for f2 after a 11 then interrupt.
And the 4 options that you gave is basically a trivial response, why don't you try these options you just gave in practice mode and maybe come back with the best solution for the OP.
I'll help you: a) check frame data on 11 string b) check startup on f2 c) try each of the 4 options

Of course it's not about reactions since f2 is not reactable, but that's not what you're reacting to. You're reacting to the fact that he staggered 11.

Cage is one of my alts. So thanks for the help but I'm aware of the frame data. 11 is +2 on block, so you can poke, do a fast normal, or armor before the f2 (15 frames) comes out. Sorry I didn't spoon feed it to the OP but I'm sure he has the game and went to practice mode as well. Happy now? You know you could have also done the same and helped the OP instead of debating semantics and literally repeating what I said.

 

[loogie]

Of course it's not about reactions since f2 is not reactable, but that's not what you're reacting to. You're reacting to the fact that he staggered 11.

Cage is one of my alts. So thanks for the help but I'm aware of the frame data. 11 is +2 on block, so you can poke, do a fast normal, or armor before the f2 (15 frames) comes out. Sorry I didn't spoon feed it to the OP but I'm sure he has the game and went to practice mode as well. Happy now? You know you could have also done the same and helped the OP instead of debating semantics and literally repeating what I said.

you said "so if your reactions are on point you can armor in between..." and now you say f2 is not reactable but 11 stagger is what you're reacting to... bit confusing to be honest. no one said Raiden should react to the f2...it's called a READ, the word you are looking for is a read. on a read you can do whatever after the 11, it's not about reactions. and definitely nothing to do with fuzzy guarding as well.

and it's not about spoon feeding anyone dude, just be clear about the information you give out. plus I would never want to repeat what you say, as I don't find it informative nor I find it accurate.

didn't know JCage was one of your alts, how about we play a set and put this behind us ey ? what was your PSN ID again?
You can add me if you want: TheOilyStage on PSN or BoP_loog on Xbox would be nice to get some Cage matchup experience.