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Fear of the Patching Style (AKA Why it Might Not Make Sense to Upplay)

Espio

Kokomo
The Goro community thinks he is fine, but yet nobody uses him. I seem to be the only one complaining about that character. But I just picked a new character and moved on.
Have you been to the Goro forums? Half the Goro community complains about him constantly, then there's some people who correct them or have different opinions then there's people like me who don't care to try to convince people who aren't open to candid discussion either way.

This is objectively not true. The reason it is not true is that if you truly "just picked up a new character and moved on", nobody would see you mentioning how bad Goro is in props threads for someone who placed well with Takeda or when someone is downplaying Reptile or any other character throwing Goro into the mix in all these threads that have zero to do with him.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
B2 leads into HKD, confirmable, at mid screen. Low damage (unless you want to spend meter), sure... but the value of HKD is fucking massive.

And his projectile are fine. Yeah, they have recovery (most projectiles do in this game as MKX is borderline hostile to projectiles), but spit hangs with plenty of full screen projectiles and forceballs are amazing for when you find a gap or get a knock down. Forceball is a moving wall that slowly shrinks the screen as you move in on them. It's fantastic!
Forceball is only a moving wall if you EX it. I'm not even saying his projectiles are shit for zoning because they're clearly not intended to be used that way. You can't use regular forceball as an ender in combos because it has too much recovery for you to be able to set anything up.

Also HKD doesn't do anything for Reptile. His oki game is the same as if he gets a slide ender. The Only value of meterless F21 1+3 is to corpse hop or corpse carry. It's something, yes, but nothing that's scary
 

Airvidal

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)
[ QUOTE="GLoRToR, post: 1754270, member: 10998"]I haven't done much playing today, I have two major exams starting 9:30 in the morning and it's 20:15, and I have several pages to read and remember for both of those exams yet so I only logged on to look at Tanya's frame data for a bit. She's balanced so far, the mobility comes at a price.
Anyway, NJP seems to either work or not work depending on connection, but mostly not work because it's only 2015, why would games be playable online yknow.[/QUOTE]
I meant that at the current moment you should be able to jump freely, when the patch comes out, your insta jumps will be gone. Also, I was referring to offline, online half the things won't work...
 

Alright RyRy

Florida Kombat
Have you been to the Goro forums? Half the Goro community complains about him constantly, then there's some people who correct them or have different opinions then there's people like me who don't care to try to convince people who aren't open to candid discussion either way.

This is objectively not true. The reason it is not true is that if you truly "just picked up a new character and moved on", nobody would see you mentioning how bad Goro is in props threads for someone who placed well with Takeda or when someone is downplaying Reptile or any other character throwing Goro into the mix in all these threads that have zero to do with him.
I have not been to the Goro forums since I deleted all of my threads I made. Don't really care anymore. Half of the Goro community is a thick headed. Cannot just speak your mind without getting blown up.

But I am done. I will still play Goro no matter what, but no longer complaining or trying to tell people about the truth of Goro's many weaknesses. Everybody has an opinion but people cannot seem to understand that on this forum.

I have also been saying Sonya is not top 5 material since I started playing with her, but people do not agree with me on that either. I must be the worst at playing this game then, and my opinions mean nothing.
 

IMakeItL00kC00L

Do not provoke a god
What pisses me off is when they nerf something across all variations while only one needed to be nerfed and 2/3 of those variations were not nerly as strong as the one that needed to be nerfed but all the variations got nerfed anyways cough*Raiden*cough
 

armani

Mortal
Don't forget she has those jump ins. I think her jump in 2 is about 5 frames a(so great). So, not nerfing B1, 4 would have given her complete pressure at all times, air and ground(not crazy good, but a bit too good.
logically speaking, doesn't make sense for you to jump in unless you have a significant amount of advantage, or if you know that your opponent is going to just stand up and block. being that MKX is the land of armored wakeups, her i5 Ji2 isn't as good as you say it is, no offense. even if b14 was left alone you can still anti air kitana after a jump. it never really gave her too much added advantage to jump in after that string.
 

qspec

Mortal
Forceball is only a moving wall if you EX it. I'm not even saying his projectiles are shit for zoning because they're clearly not intended to be used that way. You can't use regular forceball as an ender in combos because it has too much recovery for you to be able to set anything up.

Also HKD doesn't do anything for Reptile. His oki game is the same as if he gets a slide ender. The Only value of meterless F21 1+3 is to corpse hop or corpse carry. It's something, yes, but nothing that's scary
I'm not arguing whether HKD or slide is better. I am arguing that without spending meter, he's able to get easy HKD at mid screen which lets him do all kinds of shit. He's got decent oki. Each variation has something they want into (Poison, Slowdown, Invis). It does allow him to set up forceballs or vomit. If they are conditioned to block (hint: b3>4) on wake-up, he can set up some high/low shit. So my point stands... b2 can be very dangerous at mid... just not in raw, meterless damage.

Also, slow force works almost as well as ex-force. It is slow enough you can run in behind it for a high/low mix-up before it hits. Is the ex slow better? Absolutely... it is the ex version after all. But is slow still good? Absolutely.

And yeah, fast doesn't have as much use at neutral outside of possibly mixing up block timing, but it does have use in combos (12>FFB), so it isn't entirely worthless.

Nothing Reptile has works 100% of the time in every situation... Mix it up.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
I'm not arguing whether HKD or slide is better. I am arguing that without spending meter, he's able to get easy HKD at mid screen which lets him do all kinds of shit. He's got decent oki. Each variation has something they want into (Poison, Slowdown, Invis). It does allow him to set up forceballs or vomit. If they are conditioned to block (hint: b3>4) on wake-up, he can set up some high/low shit. So my point stands... b2 can be very dangerous at mid... just not in raw, meterless damage.

Also, slow force works almost as well as ex-force. It is slow enough you can run in behind it for a high/low mix-up before it hits. Is the ex slow better? Absolutely... it is the ex version after all. But is slow still good? Absolutely.

And yeah, fast doesn't have as much use at neutral outside of possibly mixing up block timing, but it does have use in combos (12>FFB), so it isn't entirely worthless.

Nothing Reptile has works 100% of the time in every situation... Mix it up.
  • I wasn't arguing HKD vs Slide either, I'm just saying they have the same use and you're glorifying HKD
  • HDK "let's him do all kinds of shit"? Please educate me. Tell me the broken things he does after a HKD without getting punished or things he can already do on regular oki
  • Tell me how good vomit is on midscreen and how it doesn't have horrendous start-up and recovery. In comparison to Erron's Caltrops too
  • NO. Regular Slowball does NOT "work almost as well as ex-force". The combination of its speed, recovery and Reptile's mobility options don't grant you the mix-ups you think it does.
  • There's no reason to ever use 12 xx Fastball. Even as a punisher F412 is better because it starts up faster
You're right. Nothing Reptile has works 100% every time in every situation. Except when something works, he's not rewarded very well.
 

Audit

Falls down too much
Have you been to the Goro forums? Half the Goro community complains about him constantly, then there's some people who correct them or have different opinions then there's people like me who don't care to try to convince people who aren't open to candid discussion either way.

This is objectively not true. The reason it is not true is that if you truly "just picked up a new character and moved on", nobody would see you mentioning how bad Goro is in props threads for someone who placed well with Takeda or when someone is downplaying Reptile or any other character throwing Goro into the mix in all these threads that have zero to do with him.
Besides, Goro took a game off Sonic Fox, he's top tier :DOGE.

(I play Goro)
 

qspec

Mortal
  • I wasn't arguing HKD vs Slide either, I'm just saying they have the same use and you're glorifying HKD
  • HDK "let's him do all kinds of shit"? Please educate me. Tell me the broken things he does after a HKD without getting punished or things he can already do on regular oki
  • Tell me how good vomit is on midscreen and how it doesn't have horrendous start-up and recovery. In comparison to Erron's Caltrops too
  • NO. Regular Slowball does NOT "work almost as well as ex-force". The combination of its speed, recovery and Reptile's mobility options don't grant you the mix-ups you think it does.
  • There's no reason to ever use 12 xx Fastball. Even as a punisher F412 is better because it starts up faster
You're right. Nothing Reptile has works 100% every time in every situation. Except when something works, he's not rewarded very well.
Dude... then switch fucking characters. Hell, go play Mileena. She just took some buffs even!

You're going to complain about everything. Your mind is made-up. If you can't see value in shit like HKD at midscreen, then you're already lost, and I see no value in continuing this conversation.

But you want the tl;dr as to why some characters got buffs (like Mileena and Kenshi) while others didn't (like Reptile)? Because characters like Reptile are (were?) more viable than Mileena and Kenshi. Any attempt to equate the two simply serves to weaken whatever valid criticism of Reptile that you might have.
 

Airvidal

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)
logically speaking, doesn't make sense for you to jump in unless you have a significant amount of advantage, or if you know that your opponent is going to just stand up and block. being that MKX is the land of armored wakeups, her i5 Ji2 isn't as good as you say it is, no offense. even if b14 was left alone you can still anti air kitana after a jump. it never really gave her too much added advantage to jump in after that string.
I understand what you're saying but your opponent can't just armor up as they see you jump 'cause your options are the following: Jump in 2, fan/ji3, fan/ji2, float, 2/ji2, b3/ji2, grab/ji2,1/Now ji2, b1, 4/cross up jump in and float on the other side(any of the floating set ups will make them whiff their armored move so they have to respect the option). They could try to low profile her ji2, but they have to respect the option of you doing ji3, fan. Man, it's a lot of decent options and all of them leading to a frame trap? Characters that don't have a d1 with a 7 frame start up would be in one. Hence, the nerf on b1, 2. I'm assuming that's why they changed them both. What's important here is that it's not punishable :)
 
Apart from a few characters I feel like the balance is good now. Maybe spec ops cassie and dvorah might be a problem but well see in time.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
Dude... then switch fucking characters. Hell, go play Mileena. She just took some buffs even!

You're going to complain about everything. Your mind is made-up. If you can't see value in shit like HKD at midscreen, then you're already lost, and I see no value in continuing this conversation.

But you want the tl;dr as to why some characters got buffs (like Mileena and Kenshi) while others didn't (like Reptile)? Because characters like Reptile are (were?) more viable than Mileena and Kenshi. Any attempt to equate the two simply serves to weaken whatever valid criticism of Reptile that you might have.
I don't think you got my point. And you just indirectly proved it too.
 

BloodyNights

"My kunai will find it's mark."
I don't think you got my point. And you just indirectly proved it too.
Personally I think Reptile isn't a bad character. He has the mix ups, the zoning, the anti zoning, and the speed to compete. He may not have the fastest normals when pressured, and he may not have tons of damage, but he has all the tools to win at his disposal and the mobility options to work with. Making him a viable character in any setting.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
Personally I think Reptile isn't a bad character. He has the mix ups, the zoning, the anti zoning, and the speed to compete. He may not have the fastest normals when pressured, and he may not have tons of damage, but he has all the tools to win at his disposal and the mobility options to work with. Making him a viable character in any setting.
I agree with most of what you said except for the zoning. In no universe can patch 1.05 MKX Reptile zone. His projectiles are GARBAGE.

He is indeed viable and has options to win but so does everyone in the game. He just needs a slight push to be better.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
I assume this is your point... since you said it.

Admittedly, you also said something or other about how Reptile players don't whine and so don't get buffs... but then you whined undoing all that hard-work staying silent for nothing.
Because he needs them. If I kept silent, he'll never get buffs. Perfect example is in the op of the thread.
 
This whole recent barrage of whining for balance changes for our mains or saying "x is bottom 5/the worst character in the game now instead of kenshi" is dumb imo.

I'm not saying you aren't allowed to be vocal about a character's problems, the Jacqui forums spent plenty weeks cringing at a lot of her tools whiffing because of certain characters' breathing cycle animation and asking paulo to get it fixed due to how unplayable she was. And even though that's just bugs within a character, you can still talk about what you'd like for a change for your character. I've been saying on my streams that Erron's mixup from a blocked 11 is infinitely better than Johnny's blocked 11 mixup and that it should be toned down slightly in some way. I'm not gonna holler about that in every balance discussion thread/tweet/post/whatever, it's just something I feel should be toned down. Same goes for my thoughts on Goro, I've posted multiple times the changes I'd like in private discussions/talked about it on my stream/other streams with goro players that can play fighting games. I'm also not going to cry about him absolutely needing these buffs. Because I accept that the character can't be a god. I'm either going to stick with him or move on to obviously better characters than him.

We have to keep in mind before everything else when discussing balance for a single character or for the entire roster, a fighting game roster can't be filled with 100% super strong characters with everything under the sun and then some. Certain characters will still have flaws and issues at the end of the day. That's how it is, we can't just pray for Reptile's damage to get increased by 8% + have hit-confirmable 50/50's that lead to setups + have pressure for days + some of the best zoning in the game. It simply doesn't work like that. This is a fighting game, characters have strengths and weaknesses. You can't fully remove one of those traits without severely imbalancing the character for bad reasons (fish tier) or even worse reasons (literally untouchable, renders most useless).

Please also try to keep in mind we're still in the month-old period of the game. People are just barely optimizing combos, figuring out the real dirt of their character and shit. For all we know, there could be a character that flies under the radar and bodies everyone in the history of ever because we were too busy looking at broken character x and crying/feeling pity for people who main bad character y. Dvorah could potentially be ok-i-guess tier when the meta for the game evolves, some of these untapped variations could end up being the actual dominant variation in the long run, like Demo Sonya/Ruthless FT/Warlock Quan.

TL;DR: if a character struggles in an area, it's not the end of the world for you. Look for someone else, stay loyal to your character if you're too attached to them and make them work.