Concerned about the state of the MK community...

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Sabin...why don't I have you on my xbox fl? Or PL for that matter. What's your tag? You can PM me if you prefer

 

[Sabin]

I just updated my sig bro. I play multiple FG's so i'm really hating the xbox friends list right now. 100 is not enough to have all the solid players on my list or whatever the limit is :/

 

[funkdoc]

Fly, I'm curious why you say that about the 360. PS3 has much more noticeable slowdown in MK9, which can also be seen in MvC3 (e.g. whenever 2 Sentinels are on the screen). All Capcom fighters also have 1-2 extra frames of input delay on PS3, though Tekken 6 is the opposite...wish someone could run that comparison for this game.

EDIT: Read a little more of this thread. I'm seriously mindfucked that people still think SF4 netcode is good. The only "near-perfect" netcode around is GGPO, end of story.

 

[truendymion]

This happens with any game - the vast majority of online players are random casual people who drop it after a couple months or so. That doesn't really mean a whole lot.

That said, I do think there may be something to the idea that the current FG craze may have reached its peak as far as active players. I could still see it growing as a spectator activity, but the disappointing sales of MvC3 and the declining sales of each subsequent version of SF4 suggest we may be jumping the shark. I see poker as the best comparison here...

EDIT: To clarify, this is likely a bigger problem for Capcom than for other developers. People are starting to get tired of their constant updates just like they did with SF2 in the 90s - the timing of UMvC3 (a mere 9 months after the original version) may be the last straw for a good portion of the audience, but we'll have to wait and see how that game does.

You kind of answered your own question there. The reason SF4 updates weren't selling is because a lot of people were broke so of course when they are deciding which games to buy they aren't going to buy another version of a game they already have, most likely they will buy something entirely different or just save their money. So the only people who end up buying SSF4 and SSF4AE are the really hardcore players.
I don't think its so much that people are sick of fighting games, I think the global economy is really shitty right now and it might be impacting consumer choices. And I really don't see how UMK9 would do anything. They've already put so much content into vanilla MK9 how much more crap can they cram in there?

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Im talking about a numbers stand point. In my mind lag is lag. Xbox might have better lag but it's still lag and online on any system is shit in my mind. I'm talking about competition and variety of players.

 

[Ssj4Crisis_x]

:focus:

Since this thread is about the "dying" community...maybe some helpful tips or something could help change this around? I live in NC where there is a REALLY small MK community...its like maybe 6 of us total that actually shows up for sessions and post in regional match making forum on SRK(No one uses it here ant2: ).


I've been working to get the community larger here but before the latest patch alot of people who was generally interested were turned off by sheer silliness that exists in MK. Ontop of that most of us live more than hour from each other so the only time we really get to see anybody come out is for tournaments. I play almost anything, so while I’m in session with these guys I generally work to promote MK as I always travel with a setup. However when these new comers come in and I talk to them next sessions the first thing I hear is how unbalance Kung Lao or how hard the matchup is with cryax…ect.
With my lack of matchup experience I really didn’t have answer for these guys then. On another note we just started doing weekly ranbats for MK, AE, Mvc3 and the turnout for mk is always like 4 so we end up just doing round robins. Other than what im doing…any suggestion on what else I could to get more people?

Things that I’m working on
-A Stream, just got to find a location to run it. My house doesn’t work because centurylink highest plan in my area only supports 1 up and 3 down. One of the TO’s I’m working with who has a REALLY good connection is generally getting turned off by MK because Kung Lao match up and no real ability to really level up. So don’t know where this is going…

-Always traveling with a setup (all dlc’s and patches included!)

-Joining in other sessions and doing friendly bets (If I beat you x amount times you got to play x amount of times in mk…etc)

-generally just going around and talking about it to other gamers, promoting and trying to answer as many questions as possible.

 

[Robotic]

THE COMMON BOND:

Reading all of these posts, no matter what your surface point is, they can all be ended with "because NRS royally fucked up the Netcode and made online an arena where you can't really know how good you are unless you STOP PLAYING IT ONLINE."

That shit is maddening, people. I WANT to play Admiral Augustus lag free, online. What am I going to do, fly my ass to Montana? I WANT to play Pig lag free, online, but I can't give him the slightest competition at all unless I take my ass to Georgia. You know what stops all of this bullshit? DOABLE ONLINE PLAY. Notice how I didn't say perfect, because no FG will be, at least not in the U.S.

And to Catch-22, that is inspiration, brother. I'm raising an 8 year old girl and have a full time job, but I'll be DAMNED if I don't make time to go to EVO next year.

 

[Bildslash]

I for better or worse have to rely on online for my MK gaming needs. I try to play it as competitive as possible, looking for the best players you can find there --I know, I know, "competitive and online" is an oxymoron for most. Yes, the online population is comprised majorly by assholes and yes, online is not a true representation of the game. However, I would like to put my input on those two issues.

a) The online population is comprised majorly by assholes
All I can ask is: Isn't it the same for every other game with online capabilities? What about anything Internet-related in general?

Truth be told, the world is full of assholes. The key differences between a face-to-face setting and an online setting are that the latter, due to it's features:

1. Allows us to locate said assholes easier and faster.
2. Encourages people to behave like that as a result of anonymity and a no-responsibility-for-your-acts environment.

In a face-to-face setting everyone is held accountable for their acts to the last consequence, whereas online generaly the worst that can happen is getting an account banned --big deal, in a few minutes you can get a new one.

So the hostile online evironment shouldn't deter folks from having a good time, there's a reason why friend and block/ignore lists exists; the very same metaphor for real life social interactions.

b) Online is not a true representation of the game
Here there is not much I can argue.

While it is true on the developers lies the burden to deliver the best experience possible by deploying a proper netcode, it is also true that the disparity in the access for users around the world to a high-end network infrastructure is one of the biggest reasons why the online experience in FG is the way it currently is. Take GGPO's inclusion in SF3:OE for instance: while GGPO is the best netcode implementation available, there are several accounts of bugs, glitches, problems and whatnot because there several other factors that hinder its performance.

The better argument I can make is that in general the players that conduct themselves as gloating arrogant assholes are the ones to rely on lag-enabled tactics in order to boost their records. But then I wonder, how different are those individuals than the offline joe who "bodies" his neighborhood friends with abusable tactics?

This brings again the importance of friend and block/ignore lists. Having a list of those folks you know are friendly, respectful, have a sense of good sportsmanship, and try to play the game --despite the handicaps imposed-- the way it was intended to be, avoids all the grief of dealing with unpleasant individuals. Is this any different than your local scene? Isn't the purpose, to gather those truly passionate about the game?

The point of all that is as follows:

As many have said the casual and/or scrub players are moving on into something different, leaving only those really interested in the game behind. And the only way for the game to thrive for long (with EVO2K12 as a milestone) is to help grow the competitive scene through weekly and monthly events and tournaments. Which is why many you --who have worked to help raise this community-- vigorously stress the need of every, offline and online players alike, to go show up to said events.

However, I can't help but feel a sense contradiction everytime those invitations to participate are made. Contradictions which might only alienate those who remain engaged in this game. Whether it is done purporsely or not, the message that seems to be conveyed is:

"Get off your couch, create a local scene and come participate in coming events --oh by the way, if you play mainly online you're likely a no-talent scrub and an asshole to top it off. Looking forward to see you there. "

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Name v.5.0]

The most painful part of all of this is that MK9 is still fairly new. MvC3, SSF4, Tekken6...They all still have more active numbers than MK9.

Also...Shooters dominate the market and it's so incredibly lame. Fighters are much harder to pick up and it will always be a problem. To me it's far more gratifying to beat someone one on one than run around a map shooting guns. Especially on consoles. Yuck.

 

[Bildslash]

The most painful part of all of this is that MK9 is still fairly new. MvC3, SSF4, Tekken6...They all still have more active numbers than MK9.

That has to do with reputation. Capcom and Namco built for themselves a good reputation throughout the years; which is more impressive in Capcom's case given they didn't have any new fighting game for about 10 years.

MK9 is NRS' first step into redeeming themselves after the 3D era fiasco. Hopefully, MK10 will be what truly helps cement the MK saga amongst Capcoms's and Namco's finest.

EDIT:

On a second thought, Capcom's case isn't as impressive when you consider the huge effort put forth by the Shoryuken community; that's impressive. They were responsible for shaping up the FG community as we know it, and got rewarded after a very long wait with SF4.

The Namco FG community had IMO an easier transition given Tekken 5 was released in 2005, so it helped keep the interest until this new FG boom were experiencing.

 

[MagnetoHalfway]

I'll put my 2 cents in if I may.

First I want to say that I've been keeping up with this thread since page 1 and I believe everyone has made some good points on the topic. Regarding the current state of the game, I dont believe its dying. I just think its a combination of certain players moving on(as expected), new games coming out, people going back to school etc.

The hardcore players, online and offline, are still here in full force. We have some big tournies coming up, and a new patch, trust the hype will continue folks.

On the topic of online players vs offline players, heres my opinion.

Look, we ALL love MK, period. And whether you're playing online, or offline with your friends, or at a huge tournament, you're helping keep the game alive. Me personally, I try to do all of these if time permits.

I think the problem starts because ppl care too much about what other players think, period. Its like ppl get so caught up in wanting props for themselves, they forget the most important thing, which is to ENJOY the game. I mean honestly, who cares if someone thinks your good or not if you're enjoying the game.

If offline players say online means nothing, that pretty much takes the props of all online players, I get that, and I see how it pisses online players off. Online players want their props so they retaliate and it becomes what we have here lol, no good.

In every fighting game community "The Offline Tournament" is how to make a name for yourself, period. Thats how its always been, and will continue to be, If you really want the props, you to find a way to show up and win.

Now, I talked to some players at SJ5, and told them honestly, you have to take both online and offline tournaments with a grain of salt. We all know online has lag and why its not taken seriously. However, like I told the players at SJ5, a tournament loss, does not in any way, shape, or form, say who the better player is. If I play someone at a tournament and lose 0-2 Im out, but that doesnt mean I wouldnt win the next 10 straight if we played again.

Which is why my theory is, if you really want to see where you stand against someone, you must play them in at least a first to 10, if not first to 20.

To me a tournament only tells us so much as well.

Again, just my 2 cents.

 

[Sabin]

The most painful part of all of this is that MK9 is still fairly new. MvC3, SSF4, Tekken6...They all still have more active numbers than MK9.

Tekken 6 is deader than a doornail right now (TTT2 isn't out yet.) Marvel is "dead' but that's mainly because people are waiting for UMVC3. SSF4, while people are waiting for 2012 update, SF is still SF so there will always be people playing.

Ultimately, more people need to do their best to make it out to events. I sense a lot of online only mentality here and it's sad to see. Please do your best to try to get to offline events so we can stop having these discussions. MK will not get the respect it wants from the overall FGC unless the #'s are so healthy they cannot ignore it, bottom line.

It also makes it WAY EASIER to feature MK at major tourneys for top8, if not more, if there was a healthier offline scene.
so sick of people saying "well why doesnt TS stream more than top8? why doesnt TS stream pools etc" when most of the peopel complaining have not been to a tourney, doesn't understand how it works, and doesnt understand how things are run, yet put us on blast for not featuring enough MK LOL. I like it. I know you guys like MK. Help me help you by showing up to a event. lol.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Tekken 6 is deader than a doornail right now (TTT2 isn't out yet.) Marvel is "dead' but that's mainly because people are waiting for UMVC3. SSF4, while people are waiting for 2012 update, SF is still SF so there will always be people playing.

Ultimately, more people need to do their best to make it out to events. I sense a lot of online only mentality here and it's sad to see. Please do your best to try to get to offline events so we can stop having these discussions. MK will not get the respect it wants from the overall FGC unless the #'s are so healthy they cannot ignore it, bottom line.

It also makes it WAY EASIER to feature MK at major tourneys for top8, if not more, if there was a healthier offline scene.
so sick of people saying "well why doesnt TS stream more than top8? why doesnt TS stream pools etc" when most of the peopel complaining have not been to a tourney, doesn't understand how it works, and doesnt understand how things are run, yet put us on blast for not featuring enough MK LOL. I like it. I know you guys like MK. Help me help you by showing up to a event. lol.

agreed

im not downing the thread maker but i think threads like this do more harm than good. I mean i go to so many tournaments and plan to go to many more. Just be active in your community and stop worrying about everyone else especially Online players.

DO NOT JUDGE the scene by how many players are online

 

[Cibernetico]

I think the problem that the MK community and other game communities are dealing with is that once again, it comes down to the fact that we are too far apart from each others. With the exception of the West Coast and East Coast, a lot of players who wish to level up and be part of the offline community are either in the middle of the country or just the middle of nowhere where there is hardly any interest from the majority of the people who have bought the game to level up. And let's be honest, not everyone can invest so much money to travel all over the place to play a game they love to death. I know Michealangelo did it but even he admitted it it he could only do it as much as his wallet let him do it.(btw, I haven't seen much from him lately. did he leave MK?)

I think I only say this because I recently saw a video from FChamp and Mike Ross and their experience with the SF4 scene and overall gaming scene in Japan. they do have it easier there because like they both said, the top players are pretty much just a train ride away from each other and are able to get constant session in and learn from each other and that is why Japan is so high level when it comes to SF4 and other games. Here, even though we have a lot of top players from NY, we can't just take a train ride to Arizona, California, Atlanta or anywhere else that has top competitive offline MK scenes and share our experiences and level each other up. It just can't happen.

So pretty much what needs to happen is that there needs to be a much better online system implemented into the next installment of the MK series. Because it will help aspiring players to go to the next level and then it will maybe inspire them to head on out to offline scenes.

And speaking of online only players, I know that they outnumber the hardcore offline scenes of any game, but at least let's I'm going to give props to 3 of them who recently got out and showed that they have lots of skills and that it's not online lag that helps them win. I know one of them was the guy who double flawlessed Sabin at the recent Toronto tournament. The other was the Ermac player that eliminated Pig of The Hut from the recent Impact Clash tourney in Atlanta and the other is Forever King who finally got out and showed his skills.

 

[Juggs]

Man, this thread has gone full retard... you never go full retard.

 

[Robotic]

Man, this thread has gone full retard... you never go full retard.

I want some crawfish now.

 

[G4S MinotaurLord]

The problem with this thread is that every post starts with "The problem with ..." (see what I did there?). I'm calling out people's bullshit here. If you're an active, posting member on this site, you clearly don't have "a problem" with MK in its current iteration (or you wouldn't even be here). Some people enjoy playing online. Some people are only for teh srs and refuse to. That's fine. There isn't a "divide" in the community. We're all here, or on MKU, or on SRK, or on GameFaqs, posting, figuring out matchups, finding new tech, bitching about inane shit that doesn't actually bother us or we wouldn't be playing the damn game to begin with.

There's no "problem" with the netcode. It's a fucking netcode. Even GGPO has had its fair share of complaints. No one in the COD community bitches about online netcoding, and it can be laggy as shit. Same goes for any game on an American console. Why does Japan have great netcode and we don't? Because you can fit all of Japan in one of the smaller states of the entire U.S. Of course there's going to be lag in NY/CA battles. It's the distance. It's unavoidable. NRS hasn't committed some great sin against online gaming. People here just complain more than the SF community. It reminds me of the so-called "sonic the hedgehog" fanbase who could be given a free Sonic game and have it be flawless and someone will bitch about his fucking eye color (i'm not kidding).

Ultimately I think this community will always live in the shadow of the SF community because, quite frankly, we'll never be as large. It's not Neatherrealm's fault, it's just a function of gaming fanbases. The average casual gamer wants to play SF more than MK because it's friendlier and funnier. The average hardcore gamer wants to play SF more than MK because they have a hard on for asian things. MK is inherently an American game and carries a stigma for doing so.

The real question is: "so what?" We have a smaller community than SF. Hell, we probably have a smaller community than Soul Calibur, Tekken, KoF, and a myriad of other games. That's not necessarily an issue. The community isn't dying, it's just smaller. That's fine. It's not a "size matters" dick showing contest. It's a group of people who want to play a game together, either competitively or casually, and enjoy themselves. Who cares if there are only 200 online vs 500 online, or 500 at a tournament vs 1000? Does this really put YOUR personal gaming enjoyment in jeopardy?

I watched the SSBM community shrink from a few hundred (at some of the tourneys I went to) to a grand total of 18 people coming to a "No Johns" in Rockland County, NY. The top players at "No Johns" were just as good as the top players at MLG and ROM. The community was just as welcoming and fun. I enjoyed myself greatly at both style events. I'll take the quality of a community over the quantity any day, and I really like a lot of the people from this site that I've met online (still have yet to go to an offline tournament with more than just a bunch of local casual players). MK players need to stop worrying about the size of their community dicks. I agree with whoever posted that this thread is flat out bad for the community itself.

 

[Noob Saibot]

*Grants Mercy on the MK community*

 

[Sabin]

I had to shake my head and facepalm yet again when I read this

There's no "problem" with the netcode.

.....

It's a fucking netcode. Even GGPO has had its fair share of complaints.

Yeah bro, the netcode is aok in MK9 lol. Even though KOTH lags more than 1v1, still consistent desync and all that. it's fine.
You shouldn't even be comparing FPS to FG netcode anyway. FPS netcode across the board, generally has way better netcode, has better support for spectators, etc etc. Basically the online UI, networking, matchmaking in a lot of western made games across the board has generally been way way better than anything FG's have had to offer, and it still remains this way to this day. Generally you cannot even begin to compare them.

Why does Japan have great netcode and we don't? Because you can fit all of Japan in one of the smaller states of the entire U.S. Of course there's going to be lag in NY/CA battles. It's the distance.

<-- someone that has lived in japan and played on 100MBPS FTTH connections in Asia, and the US. You have zero idea what you're talking about lol. Asia is playing the same exact games that we are. The netcode is not any different over there as it is over here. Because everyone in Japan has fiber to the home, in addition to being extremely close to each other, it tends to mask the problems with the netcode from the get go. FTTH can go a long way in making mediocre netcode playable and mask problems with it. Ultimately the true test of netcode is how well it holds up under mediocre to bad connections, not how well it holds up when you have godlike internet. That's one of the reasons why Asia doesn't complain about bad connections. That being said, Japanese players have gone ON THE RECORD to say MVC3 netcode is complete shit, even though they are close and have fiber. They basically say the same complaints we do, saying how online is a different game and all that.

GGPO is not perfect, but it's rollback based netcode is far superior to what we have now. I'm not saying it doesnt have it's fair share of bugs, but a lot of the "complaints" come from people not understanding how ggpo works - most notably, they do not understand how the rollback occurs, and they do not understand how to trade off the rollbacks with higher input delay.

GGPO allowed me have playable connections from NY to Japan in Super Turbo (with delay 2) and NY to South America (notably brazil) an area that is noted for having incredibly laggy connections complete with a massive amount of packet loss.

It's unavoidable. NRS hasn't committed some great sin against online gaming. People here just complain more than the SF community. It reminds me of the so-called "sonic the hedgehog" fanbase who could be given a free Sonic game and have it be flawless and someone will bitch about his fucking eye color (i'm not kidding).

wow if you are satisfied with the netcode in MK9 right now I don't know what to tell you lmao. Stay free? If you don't demand better you are not going to get anything better. I guess the desyncs, KOTH lag, constant match dropping must be okay for you now. lol. Like I said, most people don't even have a basic understanding how netcode works and you're proving this more and more to me with every post

Also, wtf? People in the SF community bitched WAY WAY MORE about netcode. GGPO came from SRK to begin with. What are you even talking about. Serious players in america complain about SF4 netcode, and continue to complain. It's mediocre at best and people should demand better. People also need better connections too.

Ultimately I think this community will always live in the shadow of the SF community because, quite frankly, we'll never be as large. It's not Neatherrealm's fault, it's just a function of gaming fanbases. The average casual gamer wants to play SF more than MK because it's friendlier and funnier. The average hardcore gamer wants to play SF more than MK because they have a hard on for asian things. MK is inherently an American game and carries a stigma for doing so.

..... I dont even know what to say anymore. I'm pretty much done. lol

The real question is: "so what?" We have a smaller community than SF. Hell, we probably have a smaller community than Soul Calibur, Tekken, KoF, and a myriad of other games.

MK outdraws all those games right now in America, please stop making numbers up to help your argument.

I agree with whoever posted that this thread is flat out bad for the community itself.

Unfortunately, posting flat out wrong info like your post above doesn't help the community either.

FYI, since I have Fiber, I've had a better experience for netplay and netcode in general. Almost Japan level, where lag is much less of a issue for me. This doesn't mean the netcode in SSF4/MK9 is anywhere close to great, it just means I have a godlike connection that masks the problems.

 

[Sabin]

Please do what you can to show up to majors (NEC, Seasons Beatings are up next. Some people are already at Devastation) instead of making threads like this which just make me facepalm all day

 

[Ermaculate_Slim]

I wish people would stop making it seem like going to an event is as simple as just showing up.Some people arent fortunate enough to have local scenes or the money to travel.It takes money and not everyone is willing to spend god knows how much money to travel cross country just to get their ass wooped.Not speaking for myself however but in general.

 

[Cibernetico]

I guess in the end, the true fans of the games will always do whatever it takes to make it out to anything that's related to the games they love to play. Hey, I don't think I will ever make it out to Evo because to be honest, I have better things to do at Vegas than go to a videogame tournament. And that's with no offense to people who make it their yearly goal as fighting game fans to go out there. Then again, the only gaming I would do out there is at the Pinball Museum.

But even if I can't make it out to Evo, Devastation or Season's Beatings I know I can take the 3 hour road trip tp Philly for NEC, Summer Jam and Winter Brawl. not to mention that VSM is only 40 minutes away as well as other players around the area.

And btw that is not to take anything away from people who can't make it out to events or have no local scenes, cause I'm sure they would if they could.

 

[Sabin]

I wish people would stop making it seem like going to an event is as simple as just showing up.Some people arent fortunate enough to have local scenes or the money to travel.It takes money and not everyone is willing to spend god knows how much money to travel cross country just to get their ass wooped.Not speaking for myself however but in general.

Find 1 person in here that said it was "easy" to travel. Noone said it's easy. Alao many gamers are not rich as you know.
Also the $21,000 "fraud" that some poster talked about earlier in this thread is playing MK9 at Devastation right now on stream lol

 

[G4S MinotaurLord]

You missed the part where I never praised the netcode and admitted to it being bad. I'm glad you can afford a Fiber connection, but that puts you in the extreme minority of players. I was merely making a point that the netcode for fighters is bad in general. You admitted yourself that the SF community bitches about it as well. My "there's no problem with the netcode" statement refers to my argument that, for the majority of gamers, online play means a different experience than offline play. I've experienced a comparable amount of lag playing MK9 as to SC4, SSF4, and BlazBlue (in all of its iterations).

Your post is full of "smh" and "you're so uninformed and wrong", willing and able to pick apart what I wrote bit by bit, but you flat out missed the fact that for the most part we were in agreement. I wasn't making claims about the netcode being good, just that other FG communities share our problems. I WAS advocating for people to come out and play in locals and majors, hence my references to the SSBM community and my personal experiences playing that at tournament level. You say this thread makes you facepalm and I said this thread is bad for the community. Is there a difference?

MK has sold more poorly than SF. MK9 pushed 3 million while SF4/SSF4 vanilla sold 4.7 While MK9 has sold more than the other series', I'll be curious to see what the showings are in a Major like EVO next year for MK vs the new SC,UMvC3, SFvT, etc.

So although we're both encouraging players to try to play offline when they can because of the shortcomings of the netcode (notice I never said it was an acceptable replacement for offline) and not worry about the size of the community in general, you've decided rather to personally attack each point I made in post. I'm advocating for our community and your comments are excluding, rude, and missing the point of my post. I'm sure you don't care about your comments towards a random scrub on this site such as myself, but know that it feels like a punch in the face for every time I've posted trying to add to the wealth of knowledge to this site, whether in the Reptile/Kenshi threads (where I try to contribute when I feel I have something relevant to say) or with the new Sindel BnB combos I uploaded. So here I am, advocating offline play and saving up money so I can pay the ridiculous amount of tolls on the way down to Valley Stream Monsters after I get my next pay check and hoping I'll be met with more than shrug-off ridicule.

 

[CitizenSnips]

Bottom line is that people need to attend offline events as much as possible because that in the long run will make the game more popular both online and offline.

I understand many have financial issues and whatnot but the truth is if you do have some sort of scene going on you have to go out there and support it the best you can.