Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

[SaltShaker]

Explain to me what this argument is about then.

If the winner gets to choose a different variation before the loser picks theirs not a counterpick?

Many have already explained it to you, I don't know what difference I can make.

The purpose is to prevent ridiculous hard counters throughout sets. With 90 variations, for someone to learn enough strong ones for countering purposes, matches can be decided by whoever gets the 1st win with ping pong countering. That is not good for any games lifespan. It would be worse than Superman getting booed at tournament.

With variation unlock, it still leaves counter picking firmly in place, just not as braindead as "let me go grab one of my pocket 7-3's for this". In the earlier scenario, if someone switches character the winner doesn't have to switch at all, it's an option. Now if someone picks Goro, and the winner is using a variation that loses 8-2, he can switch to one of the other variations that both lose 6-4, but it's at his own risk because Goro C might 7-3 his variation switch, so either way he is at a disadvantage, just not an 8-2 ping pong match disadvantage.

That is why people are advocating. Unless your argument is you "don't care how bad disadvantages can become once players learn the game". If that's your stance then I can understand why you feel that way.

 

[Shark Tank]

I'm speaking worst case scenario, not on average

And just to add, in a game with the amount of matchups MKX has, I'd bet money you'll get some really bad matchups. I mean NRS sometimes let's some questionable stuff fly, now you're throwing a shitton of new variables in the game. Let's be honest, there will be some retarded matchups. Variation unlock may help stop it, it may not. It just has a chance whereas in all lock you eat that matchup.

 

[Compbros]

I am factoring that in. That is why I am picking a certain variation of Cage because of I do not know which one you are picking.

I literally don't know what you just said there.

 

[Alright RyRy]

I literally don't know what you just said there.

The same reason you do not understand my post, is the same reason you do not see what majority of TYM sees either I guess.

I am done trying to prove a point. peace.

 

[RoboCop]

Oh okay, thanks for the clarification.

Let me put it this way. Let's say I'm using Takeda and his Lasher variation. You're getting zoned out and out spaced and can't get in at all. You lose and want to use a character that has a good long range game and good projectile game. I see you pick that character, and then switch to my Shirai Ryu variation with a teleport, essentially counter picking your counter pick. That is a situation that should never happen, but could easily happen if winners variations aren't locked.

I know you're done, so I understand if you don't reply, but I just wanted to say that I agree with you, and that variation unlock literally could not result in that happening, since the winner has to pick first. Your opponent would know that you were going to be some form of Takeda, even if you did hidden select. You would not be able to counter pick their choice. It would still be a guessing game, and your opponent could still choose a variation that was solid against any Takeda variation, but the effect of the counter would be lessened. They would no longer be able to hard counter that specific variation; they would only be able to try to find a soft counter to Takeda in general.

Sorry to quote myself, but this is buried back in page 12 or some shit; but this is how I see unlocked variations playing out:

You're in Evo top 8. Your Lackey Ferra Torr just got destroyed by your opponent's Cybernetic Kano zoning, so you figure you'll go with a good counter-zoner.

You exit to the character select screen. Your opponent opens Kano's variation selection...and her cursor disappears. She secretly selects her variation and sits back.

You pause for a second. You were going to hard-counter that zoning bastard for an easy come-back; now you're not too sure. If your opponent went with Commando, your counter-zoning Displacer Raiden will get wrecked. If she stuck with Cybernetic then you're all good. After a few seconds you make the choice to forget about counter-picking and go with the character you know best.

 

[Compbros]

Oh okay, thanks for the clarification.

Let me put it this way. Let's say I'm using Takeda and his Lasher variation. You're getting zoned out and out spaced and can't get in at all. You lose and want to use a character that has a good long range game and good projectile game. I see you pick that character, and then switch to my Shirai Ryu variation with a teleport, essentially counter picking your counter pick. That is a situation that should never happen, but could easily happen if winners variations aren't locked.

At any rate, I've said my part on the subject and would just be repeating myself from here on out. Unless there's something new I can add, I'll just be lurking.

In that scenario I'm allowing myself to be put in a situation that could be unfavorable, and that's on me. Let's say I go with Kitana, who has good zoning, and you switch, I then switch to the variation that best deals with your teleport switch. In the end I still get final say in how the matchup plays out. But let's say you're completely locked and I pick Kitana, who has the good long range and projectile game across the board, and then get to pick a variation that specifically messes with that Lasher variation. So now, not only have I countered the character you're locked into but I get to counter the variation you're locked into.

 

[Compbros]

The same reason you do not understand my post, is the same reason you do not see what majority of TYM sees either I guess.

I am done trying to prove a point. peace.

You worded it weird. Can someone please explain it to me.

I am factoring that in. That is why I am picking a certain variation of Cage because of I do not know which one you are picking.

 

[Desperdicio]

So I don't follow. Are you saying that it will be less exploited when people are locked into facing 89 possible variations?

The whole purpose of the argument is for balancing sake, while trying to show people that counter picking will still be a very strong tool.

No, I'm saying it's exploited in both cases. I was just answering what some people said about the "winner locks variation" making variations meaningless.

Right. The winner has to pick first. That literally makes it impossible to counter pick, since the loser hasn't chosen a character for the winner to counter-pick.

We've played with chance, look at Injustice random stage and MKX will likely follow suit. Even though these stages can drastically change matchups we don't allow players to pick to minimize the chance. How is character switch - > variation switch -> variation pick unfair to determine the winner? The loser still has final say in how this matchup is played out.

I'm getting that you believe my complaints against "winner picks variation" are because of the counterpicking. It's not just that. It's the same situation as winner picking character on MK9 before loses changes character. That wouldn't have been acceptable, I think. Sure, the loser could've been able to counterpick, but he wouldn't know what he was up against. The fair edge given to the loser resides partly in his knowing his opponent, partly in the possibility that the matchup was bad for him and he needs to switch character. You're right about the element of chance in Injustice, and I think it was not good for competitive play. Chance should be reduced to a minimum in order for us to be able to judge better who is best on the arena.

 

[SaltShaker]

From the T.O. of Combo Breaker.


The winner should have to pick a variation prior to the loser selecting a variation if the loser picks a new character. This is a rule similar to other games with Ultra/Groove/Shenanigans systems. This still lets the loser select a variation that may or may not be a "counter pick" to the winner's selection. I don't like how it reads on paper but in practicality its probably best for the first few months of the game. Encourages people to learn variations if nothing else.

When I'm there in person switching variations I shall think of this thread.

 

[Compbros]

I'm getting that you believe my complaints against "winner picks variation" are because of the counterpicking. It's not just that. It's the same situation as winner picking character on MK9 before loses changes character. That wouldn't have been acceptable, I think. Sure, the loser could've been able to counterpick, but he wouldn't know what he was up against. The fair edge given to the loser resides partly in his knowing his opponent, partly in the possibility that the matchup was bad for him and he needs to switch character. You're right about the element of chance in Injustice, and I think it was not good for competitive play. Chance should be reduced to a minimum in order for us to be able to judge better who is best on the arena.

I don't believe that's the same as the toolsets from one character to the next in MK9 is 100% different.

 

[Swindle]

It is sad and infuriating that so many of you are ignoring the fact that there ARE games that have a variant system similar to MKX (MB/AH), and these games HAVE ESTABLISHED RULES that have run in many tournaments. Go educate yourselves.
A reasonable man wouldn't ask the hospital's janitor to diagnose him, and a reasonable FGC wouldn't allow those who are unfamiliar with these mechanics to decide their ruleset. So many of you are making the wrong decision, and the game will suffer for it.
But, by all means, keep arguing without being informed. It's what most of you do best.

 

[Compbros]

Character + variation lock is the easiest. It's not the most logical, it's not the smartest, it's not the best, it's just the easiest. Easy doesn't make it right, it's not wrong either but to act like any other system is dumb is weird.

 

[SaltShaker]

Oh okay, thanks for the clarification.

Let me put it this way. Let's say I'm using Takeda and his Lasher variation. You're getting zoned out and out spaced and can't get in at all. You lose and want to use a character that has a good long range game and good projectile game. I see you pick that character, and then switch to my Shirai Ryu variation with a teleport, essentially counter picking your counter pick. That is a situation that should never happen, but could easily happen if winners variations aren't locked.

At any rate, I've said my part on the subject and would just be repeating myself from here on out. Unless there's something new I can add, I'll just be lurking.

In this you actually make a good point. But this also assumes that there won't be characters that beat or handle all 3 variations well.

If I know you're playing Takeda I'll switch to a character that either A) has a variation that gives me better odds against all 3 or B) has 3 variations equipped to deal with any of the 3 you pick. Either way I'm countering with a character that will ensure my advantage against whatever you do next.

It'll just make it harder to Kenshi/Sub-zero you, not to counter pick you.

 

[Juggs]

One last thing, @colt with the /thread

https://twitter.com/pakostevens/status/580141712170823680

"imo variations should be treated as characters but ppl should play the game b4 trying to set arbitrary rules."

 

[Shark Tank]

Lord paulo has spoken

But unlocking my variations is still better you fascists.

 

[Mind Flex]

"If there is even one frame difference between variations then it is a different character. That means it should be locked."
This argument has a completely acceptable internal logic. I do not argue this point. Under traditional rules it would be a no brainer to follow this system.

Variation change adds a whole new dynamic to the game. Competitive play can choose to embrace it or not. If they do not embrace it than the variation system will wither away and die. It is certainly a neat mechanic but if it does not affect the way that the game is played competitively then I know I would prefer if they just added more unique characters instead.

I appreciate the idea and, as someone who likes watching tournaments almost as much as playing the game, would love to have seen it implemented in tournament play. It could really set MK apart from other games. Tournament standard rules on this subject will determine whether characters with huge differences in their variations will benefit while characters with only subtle changes will be harmed. Should character loyalty be rewarded? If the answer is no then I'd rather NRS scrap variations and give us more unique characters.

"If the answer is no then I'd rather NRS scrap variations and give us more unique characters." Actually, on second thought variations are awesome! I want them no matter what!

 

[SaltShaker]

One last thing, @colt with the /thread

https://twitter.com/pakostevens/status/580141712170823680

"imo variations should be treated as characters but ppl should play the game b4 trying to set arbitrary rules."

PL must be lurking this thread undecided.

 

[Duck Nation]

One last thing, @colt with the /thread

https://twitter.com/pakostevens/status/580141712170823680

"imo variations should be treated as characters but ppl should play the game b4 trying to set arbitrary rules."

Thank fucking christ. Thank you based @colt

Go educate yourselves.
A reasonable man

An educated and reasonable man on either side of a debate would not hold that he knows the best long-term solution without actually knowing the facts.

 

[Alright RyRy]

No matter what the rule comes to be it will not please everyone.

Let us get through EVO with what the majority of the community wants then move from there.

 

[haketh]

NWM I'm getting info right now but pushing for Character lock only.

 

[Swindle]

Thank fucking christ. Thank you based @colt


An educated and reasonable man on either side of a debate would not hold that he knows the best long-term solution without actually knowing the facts.

Did you actually read my post in context, or just cherry pick for effect? I said that most people are ignoring the ruleset in place for the closest MKX equivalents - MB/AH. If you've read through the posts in this thread, you would know that to be a true statement. Based on that evident truth, the argument over a potential ruleset for MKX is lacking. I told people that they should educate themselves on precedents before making up their minds.
I said that they are making wrong decisions because of their lack of knowledge and precedent.
Exactly what is unreasonable about this, DNation? Which part of my assessment do you disagree with?

 

[Zoidberg747]

We don't know how much variations will affect the meta. Anyone who claims to know that based off of footage(most of which is nowhere near high level) is kidding themselves. We're going to have to wait until the game comes out. If you look at those games that have the variation unlock, they came to that conclusion after playing their game. If we as a community come to that same conclusion then we will change, if we don't we don't. The reason interactables are still on for injustice is because the majority wanted them to stay(go look back at the threads discussing this, it was very clear what the majority wanted). If Variation lock truly destroys the meta and makes the game a counterpickfest then we can change the rules, same thing with variation unlock. But sitting here arguing is getting people nowhere. The community is split and the TOs are split. The ONLY way this gets resolved is after the game comes out. That is the bottom line.

 

[haketh]

No matter what the rule comes to be it will not please everyone.

Let us get through EVO with what the majority of the community wants then move from there.

The majority of the community is dumb as hell as we've seen with stuff like the Scorpion scare.

 

[NurzBenny]

So Paulo gave us variations, to not vary it up. Well ain't this some shit

 

[Swindle]

The majority of the community is dumb as hell as we've seen with stuff like the Scorpion scare.

Indeed (lol Pig).
And to address Zoidberg's post: "The reason interactables are still on for injustice is because the majority wanted them to stay(go look back at the threads discussing this, it was very clear what the majority wanted). If Variation lock truly destroys the meta and makes the game a counterpickfest then we can change the rules, same thing with variation unlock."
Right, like how the Injustice community immediately banned interactables when they were shown to significantly affect the advantage of certain characters?