Official UMK3:TE Changelog and Discussion Thread

[tehdrewsus]

I've always liked the idea of everyone getting boss damage. Including chip damage stopping after the 2nd/3rd hit in a blocked combo string.

 

[tehdrewsus]

This has me curious now. Shallower how?
I think high level VUMK3 Kabal and HSmoke matches are awesome, only problem is it's essentially only ever vs. Kabal or HSmoke.
What would be so bad about maybe Steroid Shang vs VUMK3 Kabal? Or an ultra-mecha-Christ-death-Jesus Liu Kang?
I can't visualize that being shallow :/
(as always, not saying this is how it should be, just curious )

Can we stop calling it VUMK3? it's UMK3 and TE. not particularly directed at U, @DWednesday but in general.

I too like the idea of umk3 h smoke and Kabal vs TE SZ brothers and boss sheeva.

 

[Shock]

I've always liked the idea of everyone getting boss damage. Including chip damage stopping after the 2nd/3rd hit in a blocked combo string.

Boss damage for all would be interesting. Maybe a Kombat Kode? Be the easiest way to try it and revert without having to get rid of it.

This has me curious now. Shallower how?
I think high level VUMK3 Kabal and HSmoke matches are awesome, only problem is it's essentially only ever vs. Kabal or HSmoke.
What would be so bad about maybe Steroid Shang vs VUMK3 Kabal? Or an ultra-mecha-Christ-death-Jesus Liu Kang?
I can't visualize that being shallow
(as always, not saying this is how it should be, just curious )

In terms of shallow, I see things like, merely compensating weakness by increasing damage, adding more hits, etc, as exclusive solutions being the kinds of shallow things that would happen merely to get a character up to the level of some others. Sheeva for example, has some logical damage buffs, but she also has a new move property that it in itself was also balanced before it was tested. We could have left her with a new broken move but we knew it'd be too much, so we added both damage clause and extra use clause to keep it real.

 

[Juggs]

I think the concern of too much being done is definitely a legit one. Since there is this seemingly limitless freedom, with no time restraints, and no definitive end goal. The real problem the way I see it is people fearing their input has no value and whatever is done will be done regardless if they agree with it or not. I think the key here is transparency, and a more collaborative aspect.

With that said, nothing that is done is irreversible. And there is a process of implementing something and testing/balancing it. @Shock is 100% right when he says the only way to buff some characters is to give them something they don't already have, instead of making what they already have better. This is a fine line, of course, but with what has been done so far I don't see any cause for concern. The game is fantastic at the moment, nothing "crazy" has been done. When people see new moves being added, it's worrisome and it's completely understandable. But like I said, just because a new move or something similar is added, that doesn't mean it will stay that way. If it gets to the public then it has already been tested, but even knowing that, it can be later be found to be too good or unnecessary. Something like that won't simply just remain in the game, so hopefully at least that aspect can put you at ease.

 

[tehdrewsus]

The real problem the way I see it is people fearing their input has no value and whatever is done will be done regardless if they agree with it or not.

 

[Konqrr]

First of all, sorry for being absent and not responding to anything lately (been busy and the new USF4 update came out!). I will reply to some things in this post.

Scorpion
1) I still think that his HP,HP, ULP combo needs a little bit less recovery on the ULP so that Scorpion can teleport a bit faster. That or give the ULP a little bit more height on the popup.

2) To further differentiate Scorpion from H.Smoke, since Scorpion originated the Spear move, maybe consider increasing Scorpion's hit limit BEFORE spear to 5 instead of 4. This will allow Scorpion to hit land HP, HP, ULP, TP, Spear off of a JPS.

Lets analyze these changes and compare him to VUMK3 Scorpion.
3) Hit reaction on HP,HP,U+LP changed to a custom launcher that allows a Spear or Teleport Punch followup

Awesome new combo. The potential this had me excited to use him, especially hoping that he'd be viable at or around H.Smoke's level (TE version). The addition of the combo is really only good for when you make a good read, your opponent presses buttons when you're rushing down, or if you hit a naked psychic spear. Aside from that, Scorpion still has to hunt this combo in order to hit good damage.

However, this leads to his limitations:
He's still limited to runjabs and guessing games. This is the lead in to Scorpion's most damaging non-punisher combo, and the worst part is that it is inconsistent, in the best conditions, to land, as we can see here:
http://testyourmight.com/threads/umk3-te-public-beta-has-released-to-the-public.47204/page-7#post-1541944
and unfortunately, it makes hunting that combo dangerous, because if you're on the lower pop up side of it, you can't hit the TP, Spear effectively, making him even more limited, or at least only slightly less limited than he is in VUMK3.

- The Fix: ULP needs to be changed to an overhead. Why would I EVER block high against Scorpion? If the ULP part is an overhead, you can't just stay in a crouch block, you must react and it gives Scorpion a viable option to open you up.

4) Recovery on HP,HP,U+LP reduced by 6 frames
Scorpion, due to the inconsistency of this combo, needs either:
1. Less recovery to consistently hit the TP, Spear
or
2. The popup by the ULP needs to be generally higher so that the TP, Spear hits consistently.

5) Disable Timer increased from 80 frames to 112 frames
H.Smoke got invisibility, still has more options available to him to open you up and is generally more versatile than Scorpion. Ermac can still do insane damage, can zone, and has options like H.Smoke to open you up. Scorpion...still has to wait to teleport. This nerf really makes Scorpion less desirable to pick, ESPECIALLY in a competitive tournament setting (this is TE, afterall) over H.Smoke or Ermac. Less options available to him than the other two and less mobility = less likely to pick him.

6) Can no longer go through the wall if too close to the corner

With his lack of mobility, either he needs to be the only teleporter who can TP through the wall, or he needs his MKT forward teleport.

OK, now I'd like to further plead my case for an increase to 5 hits before spear disable.(Scorpion Only)

-First of all, Scorpion is STILL so limited compared to his teleporting ninja counterparts. I've explained much of that above. The fact is, he has to work SO hard in order to connect his BnB HP,HP,ULP combo, and it's inconsistent at best.

-H.Smoke and Ermac can both convert to MASSIVE damage after a naked lift/spear on a mistake. Off of a single aaHP, they both still get another Launch to Spear/Lift for more damage. Scorpion can't convert like that because he's disabled if he does aaHP, Spear, HP, HP, ULP. If he had 5 hits, he can convert to massive damage because he can connect another Spear afterward. Even in the case that he does aaHPHP, whiff TP, aaHPHP, HP,HP,ULP...that's really still a punisher. I am making the case for being able to do aaHPHP, whiff TP, aaHPHP, JK, Spear, combo ender.

The fact is, Scorpion has to work much harder to be effective because of his limitations, and he cannot convert damage the way both H.Smoke and Ermac can. He needs SOMETHING to make him desirable to pick instead of them and stop us from seeing H.Smoke v H.Smoke in grand finals ALL THE TIME. 5 hits before spear disable is the answer!

Worst case scenario: Hacker tries it, it's too much, reverts it.

FINALLY, The case for freely jumping after a successful spear.

-Currently, I can only see Scorpion needing this. He's the only character with the move that is truly limited at the moment.
-H.Smoke has invisibility, I don't want him to be able to jump around freely when he's invisible...he can do that anyway without connecting a spear.
-R.Smoke... spear, crossover jk, tpu, aahp, spear, sujk, 5 hit... way too much.

1) The U+LP juggle height might be increased ever-so-slightly to make the TP combo easier, but not by much. The height issue depending on when the combo started that @mkholic posted up is being looked into along with the Axe Elbow move ignoring Frame Advantage rules.

2) As for allowing 5 hits before a Spear... that is very unlikely to happen.

3) I personally feel that U+LP being an overhead makes no sense. If the old alpha Knee, D+HP, U+LP combo returns, it makes more sense to have the D+HP be an overhead as the animation calls for it.

Scorpion has always been about hit and run chip damage and catching you off guard.

You talk about "why would I ever block high?" ... this is 2D MK where there are NO OVERHEADS ever anywhere in any of the games. The concept of adding them to TE was found and tested by @dreemernj successfully but has not been implemented yet. So why would you ever block high ever at all? You wouldn't. TE isn't going to be a 50/50 mixup game. Things like Jump Kicks (and maybe Jump Punches) and Sindel's Air FB will most likely be overheads and a few select things here and there...

4) Reducing the recovery on U+LP any more and Scorpion will have high frame advantage (again) by using this on block. Like I mentioned in #1 above, if anything the height will be slightly increased to make comboing the TP easier.

5-6) Here is what the hacker plans for Scorpion's TP... The normal and forward TPs will each have their own Disable Timers and the timer will be set back to normal. This will allow Scorpion to use the TP like he used to. He will also be able to use both TPs in juggles.

I have no idea when the forward TP will be implemented, but it WILL. So stop with the "Scorpion is the worst TP ninja ever" talk already... this is the beta so please, everyone, discuss constructively ^_^

The Disable Timer will likely stay for Human Smoke and Ermac.

Reptile
-The dash move on passthrough is fair because it doesn't lead to much, however when you block it on a read, it's still very difficult to punish. This move is as risky and dangerous as a teleport for any TP characters, as well as him being able to use it for mobility like a TP ninja. That said, it should be just as punishable as a blocked teleport. On block before passthrough, the move should cause less blockstun making it as punishable as a blocked teleport.

The Dash on block used to be -2 where Reptile could not be punished. It is now -9 and can be full combo punished on block by every character in the game. You simply have to let go of block sooner. This is the age old debate about Reptile's Dash in MK9 being stupid hard to punish online, right @THTB?

General
-Spear characters: Scorpion, H.Smoke and R.Smoke - after successfully landing a spear, the stun animation is disabled if you jump. The disabling is similar, in the way it works, to a freeze, ground freeze (Sub) and net (Cyrax) without the stun being disabled when they leave the ground, and these three characters should be able to leave the ground as well without losing the stun after a spear.

This is a really good idea, but it must be implemented with care. Smoke can get a TPU into HP, JK, Harpoon then SUJK into 5-hit and this is very likely a 60% combo from a naked Harpoon which is RIDICULOUS. So some safeguards will have to be put in place. IMO, it doesn't make much sense for it to be a "Scorpion" thing where he can jump and not other spear characters...

Stryker
-The mall cop needs a SFA3 Ken style "roll" where he's invulnerable to projectiles during the roll. Lets face it, we all think Stryker is hysterical, and I can just see Stryker doing unnecessary dramatic TV style dive rolls. Needs to be able to cancel it into his riot gun though, and potentially use it to dive "past" his opponent to the other side of them.

lol If anything like this is done, it will be for utility of the character and not for the lulz

On a different topic...

Why isn't this the case for: Kano's knife throw, Stryker's high grenade, the Ninja TP's, and C.Sub's ground freeze? (and to a lesser extent because they use LP: NW's arrow, U.Sub's clone, and Ermac's FB?)

Very good points and they should be addressed (at least the HP special moves).

Personally, Kang's LFB, and Mileena's Roll

The hacker made one quick attempt at making LK's Low FB a low and it had messed up collision. I am sure by the end of this hack, it will be low. As for Mileena's Roll, I don't think it will be a low. It is an extremely good move now with the removal of GJs.

1) I'm also going to say that a lot of these changes to knock opponents full screen… Jades glow kick, reptiles roundhouse combo finishers, scorpions 8+ Hit elbow… Feels very mugen like

2) I would like the next revision, just my opinion… To address some of the buggy are feeling play… It appears some frames are missing sometimes, somethings hit funny, damage protection ignored in some aspects… fix that stuff and give some of us a chance to play who haven't made it our full-time job to beta-test for the past couple of months… Level the playing field so we can get a feel for more than three guys opinion on characters

1) Is it the screen shake effect, the blood? This hit reaction is shared by USub and OSub's RH combo ender. How would it be made to look like it belongs?

2) Please give examples. The hacker can't fix anything he can't exactly identify and recreate.

- "frames are missing sometimes" - no frames of animation were changed or removed
- "somethings hit funny" - There is a slight slowdown on combo starters with the increased hitstun on elbows and knees and this is known by the hacker if this is what you mean
- "DP ignored in some aspects" - The only known issue is in 2v2 with Sektor's TPU not setting DP in some situations. This has already been fixed along with Scorpion's U+LP not launching in 2v2

Classic Sub-Zero
We were trying to figure out what he could get to make him better. Everything we thought of was either "meh" or impractical. I then thought, wouldn't it be cool if C.Subs throw freezes you? Like, it could either freeze you in place, or do the regular CSub throw animation, then freeze them either in the air or when they hit the ground. This throw freeze would have triple damage protection, so you could only get like 20% or something from it. Sheeva and Cyrax also can get damage and set-ups off of their throws, and CSub needs something, we feel this would be perfect for him.

You guys think OSub needs more buffs? lol

While that is an interesting idea, and I can picture it, I don't think there are animation frames that would make it look like it should. What @Shock mentioned is what is planned.

Shang Tsung
Shang is decent, but needs some help. I think he should have less recovery on his single horizontal fireball, as well as more pushback on it. @R.E.O. came up with an idea that it would help Shang if he could do singular ground eruptions. Perhaps a close one, and a mid range one. I think these buffs are needed for Shang, he's lacking at the moment.

Single Summon Skulls are an excellent idea, don't know if they will be done or not.

Stryker
Simple, his high bomb would be an overhead, his low bomb would be a low. And slightly less recovery on both.

I am in the minority here, but I am not in favor of this because it creates a stupid 50/50 mixup at close range. You guess wrong and get hit, I've never liked that (yes I played KF, shut it lol). The idea about making them low attacks when they are a certain height has been tossed around though.

Cyrax
A bomb/net fake out where he opens his chest but nothing comes out. This would have quick recovery as the purpose would be to bait teleports and jump ins.

Interesting idea, but with Cyrax's current (and significant) buffs, do you really think he struggles against Teleporters still? Giving him something like this takes a lot away from the requirement of knowing and understanding matchups and when and where to do special moves. If your opponent is standing there waiting for your chest to open, then don't do it! Play footsies, play smart, create opportunities to set up bombs and throw nets.

Remember the debate about Noob vs Smoke in MK9? It was widely considered a 10-0 matchup due to Smoke's ability to completely shut down Noob's zoning. But once people (@Tom Brady) pointed out that you have to have proper spacing and not play the matchup the same way you do others, it wasn't so bad. Is it still a losing matchup? Yes. But it is manageable. So is this.

Sektor
Not sure what buffs he could get or needs, but he needs something. Perhaps his double missiles from MKT?

If/when the TPU side debacle gets fixed, the Knee, HK, TPU combo could return. @DWednesday

Aside from that, Double Missiles have been discussed.

----------------------------------------------
This is getting long... going to stop here for now.

 

[REO]

I don't think people understand how BAD UMK:3 of a game is at it's core. I'm sorry, but this game has so many issues it goes far and beyond how terrible designed some of the characters are. How can someone look at original UMK3 and say the game is fine with just infinites removed? Do you know how hard it is to get new players into the game when there's so much copy pasta and generic slung across the board? Why are there three characters that are sharing a same exact move (teleport punch), why is almost every ground projectile just as useful as the others ones? (and by useful and I mean terrible with no originality) The game was just not designed for competitive tournament play and it reeks through that in almost every faucet. And I 100% firmly believe if you think original UMK:3 is a good game then you're NOT playing people who are exactly on your level abusing the same exact characters and tactics day in and day out. I think the real #FGCHorror story would be imagine having original UMK3 game be featured on a big stage like EVO in front of every fighting game audience out there and then them possibly throwing tomatoes at the screen for the ridiculousness they would see. If you disagree, then you just are accustomed to your slime and don't want anything better. I'm sure the 3D MK players felt the same about their game (I used to be one of them who thought MK:A was fine).

I see TE as a chance to finally get players into the game. To finally have that CSub not be a BORING and dull character with two copy pasta specials that no one wants to put all their energy in to. Sure TE still needs a lot of help and modifications before the game will be "tournament" ready. But at least there's potential in this game. How players can be against more depth and character viability being added into the game is beyond me. Can we for once stop making the game revolve around teleporters and friends? Why can't every character be extremely good for once?

 

[tehdrewsus]

@Konqrr I was talking about things like anti-air uppercuts knocking the opponent backwards, like maybe there was a frame missing somewhere, that cost that bug to happen. Also, when robot smoke teleport uppercuts, and cyrax goes into air through, Cyrax goes under the screen.
With regards to the fullscreen kicks, I think it's a mix of the screen shaking, and just the reaction in general. I can see how it would be beneficial to reptile to have that hit go fullscreen, but I wonder why it has to with Jade

 

[Shock]

I think the concern of too much being done is definitely a legit one. Since there is this seemingly limitless freedom, with no time restraints, and no definitive end goal. The real problem the way I see it is people fearing their input has no value and whatever is done will be done regardless if they agree with it or not. I think the key here is transparency, and a more collaborative aspect.

With that said, nothing that is done is irreversible. And there is a process of implementing something and testing/balancing it. @Shock is 100% right when he says the only way to buff some characters is to give them something they don't already have, instead of making what they already have better. This is a fine line, of course, but with what has been done so far I don't see any cause for concern. The game is fantastic at the moment, nothing "crazy" has been done. When people see new moves being added, it's worrisome and it's completely understandable. But like I said, just because a new move or something similar is added, that doesn't mean it will stay that way. If it gets to the public then it has already been tested, but even knowing that, it can be later be found to be too good or unnecessary. Something like that won't simply just remain in the game, so hopefully at least that aspect can put you at ease.

Concerns have already been taken into consideration and things will be changed, that's a guarantee. We also need more than a handful of people giving feedback so we need to encourage others to get involved. We wouldn't ask for feedback if we didn't want it, and 90% of the return has been things we've already considered or had a feeling might be an issue, so that's a good thing!

I have no problem adding moves to characters so long as they make sense and don't feel like MUGEN, which thus far the closest things to MUGEN feel I have painstakingly tried to filter out or modify so they feel like MK and not out of place which is why I've tried to promote applying existing routines that are already in the game to existing scenarios as changes because we're visually familiar with what that stuff looks like and that is a limitation I try to implement so things never break outside the box of the game itself, but just make the box bigger yet more sound.

The only problem with multiple versions of the game is, the scene is already small and fractured. Some people want a version where only infinites are removes, glitch jabs are gone, and corner jab infinite is gone. While this is all well and good, I doubt it'd balance the game very much as the characters who benefit most from these tactics are still top tier without them, and some characters with infinites aren't even in the top half. It certainly would make it more interesting to play, I'll give you that, but then, what does Classic Sub do? His relaunch combo is very important to him to even break at best an 8/2 vs Kabal. Now it's a basically 10-0. Just an example. But wait, if C Sub can freeze while the Ground Ice is out...now maybe it's a 7/3, and wait, the ice does chip? Definitely a 7/3, Sub can juggle off his slide? Kabal has damage nerfs? Definite 6/4 at worst.

 

[Konqrr]

1) I was talking about things like anti-air uppercuts knocking the opponent backwards, like maybe there was a frame missing somewhere, that cost that bug to happen.

2) Also, when robot smoke teleport uppercuts, and cyrax goes into air through, Cyrax goes under the screen

3) With regards to the fullscreen kicks, I think it's a mix of the screen shaking, and just the reaction in general. I can see how it would be beneficial to reptile to have that hit go fullscreen, but I wonder why it has to with Jade

1) Like when you uppercut someone trying to cross you up and they go behind you?

2) What do you mean? I can't picture it.

3) One of Jade's strengths is her zoning which is improved in TE. Her opponents want to come in and getting hit by a Green Kick makes them try again. Also it grants corner juggles which are really cool and makes her extremely fun to use. Jade has never been known to juggle effectively and now she can. She has crazy corner punishers that are very gratifying to do in a match.

 

[tehdrewsus]

1) Like when you uppercut someone trying to cross you up and they go behind you?

2) What do you mean? I can't picture it.

3) One of Jade's strengths is her zoning which is improved in TE. Her opponents want to come in and getting hit by a Green Kick makes them try again. Also it grants corner juggles which are really cool and makes her extremely fun to use. Jade has never been known to juggle effectively and now she can.

Yes, cross up uppercut sends the opponent facing the opposite direction of the uppercut. @DWednesday and I had this happen the other night. I've been playing this game for years, and have never seen that happen. It happened at least twice in our games. I think one was a cross up, the other it may have been a ninja teleport

imagine smoke going into his teleport uppercut animation, and cyrax going into his air throw move while smoke is off the screen (under). It's like cyRax tries to go under the ground to get to smoke. Of course he gets hit LOL

 

[Shock]

@Konqrr I was talking about things like anti-air uppercuts knocking the opponent backwards, like maybe there was a frame missing somewhere, that cost that bug to happen. Also, when robot smoke teleport uppercuts, and cyrax goes into air through, Cyrax goes under the screen.
With regards to the fullscreen kicks, I think it's a mix of the screen shaking, and just the reaction in general. I can see how it would be beneficial to reptile to have that hit go fullscreen, but I wonder why it has to with Jade

Jade can try some boomerang shenanigans with a full screen knock away. I too understand what you mean though about the full screen knock away, but, Classic Sub does have this reaction on his combo so it is in the game, this doesn't mean it doesn't look weird though! A regular roundhouse knockdown might look better.

@tehdrewsus

1) Like when you uppercut someone trying to cross you up and they go behind you?

2) What do you mean? I can't picture it.

3) One of Jade's strengths is her zoning which is improved in TE. Her opponents want to come in and getting hit by a Green Kick makes them try again. Also it grants corner juggles which are really cool and makes her extremely fun to use. Jade has never been known to juggle effectively and now she can. She has crazy corner punishers that are very gratifying to do in a match.

1. This uppercut reaction has always happened. We call it "The back body drop" it is collision box vs character axis. If it didn't happen like this, I'd be shocked
2. Cyrax will move towards them and go into and almost under the ground during some air moves because he thinks that where they are. This again, has always been there

 

[THTB]

The Dash on block used to be -2 where Reptile could not be punished. It is now -9 and can be full combo punished on block by every character in the game. You simply have to let go of block sooner. This is the age old debate about Reptile's Dash in MK9 being stupid hard to punish online, right @THTB?

Pretty much. Remember, MAMEHub is the best way to play UMK3 online, but it's not perfect. Even in the lag, Konqrr was punishing me for it. It's something you need to be aware of 100% of the time much like in MK9, otherwise, Reptile eats you up on the ground.

 

[dreemernj]

This has me curious now. Shallower how?
I think high level VUMK3 Kabal and HSmoke matches are awesome, only problem is it's essentially only ever vs. Kabal or HSmoke.
What would be so bad about maybe Steroid Shang vs VUMK3 Kabal? Or an ultra-mecha-Christ-death-Jesus Liu Kang?
I can't visualize that being shallow
(as always, not saying this is how it should be, just curious )

Imagine Steroid Sheeva. She's a huge target and she just doesn't have good openings against Kabal and HSmoke. How do you get her win/loss ratio up evened out? Super power her hits and combos? With just buffing what she has to try to get her to Kabal/HSmoke level, I think you'd realistically have to give her a reliable big damage combo, close to 100% and the Sheeva game becomes "How do I land this 1 combo." And if her win/loss is on par with Kabal/HSmoke, why choose either of them if, with her, you just have to land the 1 combo?

The name of the game here has to be creating options. And, considering the limitations of modifying an existing game, the higher level characters might have to be modified to allow everyone else more options against them while other characters need to get new, community created stuff to develop options where currently there are none.

 

[DWednesday]

Imagine Steroid Sheeva. She's a huge target and she just doesn't have good openings against Kabal and HSmoke. How do you get her win/loss ratio up evened out? Super power her hits and combos? With just buffing what she has to try to get her to Kabal/HSmoke level, I think you'd realistically have to give her a reliable big damage combo, close to 100% and the Sheeva game becomes "How do I land this 1 combo." And if her win/loss is on par with Kabal/HSmoke, why choose either of them if, with her, you just have to land the 1 combo?

The name of the game here has to be creating options. And, considering the limitations of modifying an existing game, the higher level characters might have to be modified to allow everyone else more options against them while other characters need to get new, community created stuff to develop options where currently there are none.

Oh shit, sorry, I think this is definitely a communication breakdown, cause that isn't what I meant.
I meant, keeping Kabal and HSmoke the same, and buffing everyone else up to that level with whatever it took, not just damage boosts and custom Dialakombos.
My orginal question was why wasn't everyone buffed (with new options/adjustments/whatever), as opposed to certain people getting nerfed. When you mentioned that that'd be shallow, it got me curious as to why you'd think that, but I think the whole thing was a bit of a misunderstanding due to text-based communication.

 

[dubson]

Oh shit, sorry, I think this is definitely a communication breakdown, cause that isn't what I meant.
I meant, keeping Kabal and HSmoke the same, and buffing everyone else up to that level with whatever it took, not just damage boosts and custom Dialakombos.
My orginal question was why wasn't everyone buffed (with new options/adjustments/whatever), as opposed to certain people getting nerfed. When you mentioned that that'd be shallow, it got me curious as to why you'd think that, but I think the whole thing was a bit of a misunderstanding due to text-based communication.

Shallow in that it would just be the same game with nerfed characters…. as getting some characters to be tournament worthy may have to include giving them new moves or options that weren't originally in the game. Why would you want that? If your a Scorpion fan for example, your screwed…. as there is no way of making him kompetitive without what most would consider pretty drastic change. That doesn't have to include new moves or new properties to moves, but even keeping him the exact same and adding good damage out of a knee I would consider drastic. Wouldn't you want the best version of him possible to the game? The game will live longer new and improved opposed to just improved to only a limited extent. Why not optimize if the capabilities are available? As stated, the game needs more than just removal of GJ's, nerfed infinites and nerfed Kabal/H Smoke… Some characters as they are just can't hack it at high level play without what you would probably consider drastic change, tbh… The removal of GJ's alone will really change the game, but I am excited to see/play the game at a potentially optimal, or modern, level.

There is nothing wrong with having an updated version of a game. Why would anyone play second impact when there is third strike? Why would anyone play SFII when there is Super Turbo? Why play Street Fighter 4 when there is Ultra? Etc…

UMK3 is a really old game and behind in many concepts now generally associated with fighting games… Granted, in many ways it was very ahead of its time, it is in need of change…. Like Shock said, think of this as MK Trilogy: Done Right, instead of a lazy port and on to MK4 (Ed Boon only cares about MONEY)… Barely anything hits low for god's sake. No overheads. Some characters have virtually no options against certain characters. Glitch Jab's, while as much as I have adapted and embraced them, are horrible… as REO said, some characters literally have like 1 generic "copy pasta" combo they are strictly/blindly hunting for...

Your just thinking like I was…. We are still in beta. It's far from finished and will take much, careful time. No reason to rush this at all, actually. They are bouncing around as far as who they are "prioritizing" for each beta. It does seem that they have started from the top opposed to the bottom but think about it, that's actually the right call… Kabal and H Smoke were so powerful they were in a tier of their own and ruining the game. And it really doesn't matter where they start, it matters where they finish.

I'm really interested to see how it turns out with overheads and what not, some of the new moves planned to be tested. It has nothing but great potential… I'm just eager for this to be finished, but patience is a virtue… you kant rush perfection… I'm just passionate about this game and believe more input is needed from UMK3 heads… Many do not post anymore… Because of this, MKX, now is an exciting time for MK and UMK3. If people want UMK3 to live on they need to voice their opinions… and come back to the kommunity. They are hurting the kommunity and potential of the game, by not. No need for sensitivity, grudges or hatred because we all have a common love for MK.

And I'm not worried at all…. As long as @Shock , @Konqrr and @dreemernj are involved. And stay involved… I'm just happy to see them posting and answering questions…

It's very early still….

 

[dubson]

This is a really good idea, but it must be implemented with care. Smoke can get a TPU into HP, JK, Harpoon then SUJK into 5-hit and this is very likely a 60% combo from a naked Harpoon which is RIDICULOUS. So some safeguards will have to be put in place. IMO, it doesn't make much sense for it to be a "Scorpion" thing where he can jump and not other spear characters...

You think H Smoke should basically be allowed to take you to the corner no matter where he/you are on the screen?

 

[9.95]

1) The U+LP juggle height might be increased ever-so-slightly to make the TP combo easier, but not by much. The height issue depending on when the combo started that @@mkholic posted up is being looked into along with the Axe Elbow move ignoring Frame Advantage rules.

Good Stuff. It doesn't need much... just a tiny bit.

2) As for allowing 5 hits before a Spear... that is very unlikely to happen.

I agree with this now. I was making numerous suggestions, not saying Scorpion needed ALL of them, but maybe some mixture of them.

3b) I personally feel that U+LP being an overhead makes no sense. If the old alpha Knee, D+HP, U+LP combo returns, it makes more sense to have the D+HP be an overhead as the animation calls for it.

3b)Scorpion has always been about hit and run chip damage and catching you off guard.

3c)You talk about "why would I ever block high?" ... this is 2D MK where there are NO OVERHEADS ever anywhere in any of the games. The concept of adding them to TE was found and tested by @@dreemernj successfully but has not been implemented yet. So why would you ever block high ever at all? You wouldn't. TE isn't going to be a 50/50 mixup game. Things like Jump Kicks (and maybe Jump Punches) and Sindel's Air FB will most likely be overheads and a few select things here and there...

3a. I get that the animation doesn't look like an overhead and that the DHP does, but NW's heel stomp certainly looks like a low but can be blocked high, LOL. That said, My main reason for suggesting that combo for the overhead is:
-The combo path leads to 2 different endings. One is a popup, the other is the HK, BHK, neither of which lead to 50/50's if blocked high.
-The combo path, if the ULP is an overhead, has 2 hits before the overhead. Easily blockable on reaction to the first HP. At that point, both combo paths are blockable high on reaction to the first HP.
-The combo can be interrupted for a sweep check (his only low), which is blockable on reaction
-The DHP from the 3 hit Knee, DHP, ULP is the 2nd hit. That means that, unlike the ULP combo, it's not nearly as blockable on reaction. Also, if you're crouch blocking, the Scorpion user has the option select of HK HK LK LK, or HK DHP DLP which is the newly proposed overhead. It's not quite a 50/50, but as close as you can get.

3b.

If you think original UMK:3 is a good game then you're NOT playing people who are exactly on your level abusing the same exact characters and tactics day in and day out

In his current (and VUMK3 state) then no need for anyone other than Kabal, Hsmoke. His old game being what it was, if it's the same thing in TE = no need to use Scorpion when Steroid Scorpion already exists. More Scorpion = New options needed.

3c. It shouldn't a 50/50 mixup game. I'm not saying put hi/lows together in combo strings like MK9/Injustice. I'm saying that an overhead here and there that is blockable on reaction but creates a pseudo-mind game to use is not going to hurt his game nor will it help his game DRASTICALLY enough to call it OP. I think that the overhead coming at you on the 2nd hit definitely has a chance of being OP rather than it being on the 3rd hit.

4) Reducing the recovery on U+LP any more and Scorpion will have high frame advantage (again) by using this on block. Like I mentioned in #1 above, if anything the height will be slightly increased to make comboing the TP easier.

This was my original suggestion to fix the problem...granted, before we knew about the inconsistency, LOL.

5-6) Here is what the hacker plans for Scorpion's TP... The normal and forward TPs will each have their own Disable Timers and the timer will be set back to normal. This will allow Scorpion to use the TP like he used to. He will also be able to use both TPs in juggles.

Excellent ideas.

Regarding Jumping after successful spear:
This is a really good idea, but it must be implemented with care. Smoke can get a TPU into HP, JK, Harpoon then SUJK into 5-hit and this is very likely a 60% combo from a naked Harpoon which is RIDICULOUS. So some safeguards will have to be put in place. IMO, it doesn't make much sense for it to be a "Scorpion" thing where he can jump and not other spear characters...

I agree that it's got to be handled with kid gloves. It could cause characters to have super combos if it isn't handled correctly.
I've wavered back and forth on the idea of it being "Scorpion Only" but a move like that should have universal properties. All or none get it.

Regarding giving Stryker a roll:
lol If anything like this is done, it will be for utility of the character and not for the lulz

When I made that suggestion, I wasn't talking for lulz... though it was included, LOL. The main reason is that it seems that Stryker has no good way of approaching good zoning characters and a roll like this would give him projectile invincibility and a way in when used right. It's meant to be for the utility of the character...and some lulz at the mall cop rolling around with his gun unnecessarily, LOL.


Overall, I do have to say, I am pleased with everything TE so far. I really appreciate all the work that the hacker is putting in, that he's listening to feedback and helping move the game forward.

 

[dreemernj]

Oh shit, sorry, I think this is definitely a communication breakdown, cause that isn't what I meant.
I meant, keeping Kabal and HSmoke the same, and buffing everyone else up to that level with whatever it took, not just damage boosts and custom Dialakombos.
My orginal question was why wasn't everyone buffed (with new options/adjustments/whatever), as opposed to certain people getting nerfed. When you mentioned that that'd be shallow, it got me curious as to why you'd think that, but I think the whole thing was a bit of a misunderstanding due to text-based communication.

Don't apologize, this is all friendly discussion anyway. I think even in that situation it'd still feel shallow to me because from my perspective, some of the top tier characters are strong because they shut down options that could be used against them. If there are only a few ways you can really get at a character that is being played well, then no amount of changing the rest of the cast will change that. There will always be just a few ways to do it and if the entire game becomes about buffing how the other characters can take advantage of a small number of options, then I think it ends up a more shallow game overall.

Buffing a character is raising them up, nerfing is dropping them down, I think we need a term for moving them sideways. I honestly have no opinion on how to balance Kabal in a fun and meaningful way because I just wouldn't even know where to start, but I love what's being tested right now for him. Some of his stuff is nerfed, other stuff is buffed, and the essential result is he has gone sideways. He's still great and a lot of fun to play but his strengths have been shifted around a bit. I feel like as testing occurs, people are going to find new ways to attack him, the old ways will pretty much all still work, and the net result is, there is more variety in the gameplay.

For me though, it all boils down to the fact that I have tested TE a bit and I love the feel of it. I like what has been down to bring some characters up and move other characters sideways. There's some nerfing, but I think that's all in keeping with the feel of the game.

I just can't wait to play it more see it reach a stable version that starts making it to tournaments.

 

[dubson]

I agree that it's got to be handled with kid gloves. It could cause characters to have super combos if it isn't handled correctly.
I've wavered back and forth on the idea of it being "Scorpion Only" but a move like that should have universal properties. All or none get it.

I just don't agree with this logic- "If one spear character has it all should". That's not right... it's not that black and white. I see no reason why H Smoke should be able to. At least as he is/was. It cannot be based on that alone….

That's like saying since Sub-Zero's Slide does X, Reptile's automatically should as well. Or this, or that. They are two (supposed to be) completely different characters, even though they share the same move. It has to revolve around that specific character, not based on the move alone. H Smoke is built to string together long, drawn out combos together and I firmly believe that is why he should not be able to. His damage, hit limit, pop-up everything would have to be adjusted around that. Is it worth it? Scorpion (at least in Vanilla) isn't really built like that. So I think it would be fair for him, as well as the fact that he needs a lot of help (all depends on how much help he gets in other areas, though).

That's like saying Ryu's shoryuken does X so Ken's automatically should as well. It is the same move? Same motion? Both characters should blindly have the same properties based around the move? Moreover, every character with a shoryuken should have universal properties? All should come out at the same speed? Recover at the same speed? They are two completely different characters, as similar as they are at the same time. It simply does not work like that. I really hope the end result is heavily, heavily tested.

Scorpion, as bad as he is in VUMK3, didn't even get this ability in VUMK3. Let alone H Smoke. Do you think the option had to of crossed their minds? At least giving it to Scorpion?

 

[9.95]

I just don't agree with this logic- "If one spear character has it all should". That's not right... it's not that black and white. I see no reason why H Smoke should be able to. At least as he is/was. It cannot be based on that alone….

That's like saying since Sub-Zero's Slide does X, Reptile's automatically should as well. Or this, or that. They are two (supposed to be) completely different characters, even though they share the same move. It has to revolve around that specific character, not based on the move alone. H Smoke is built to string together long, drawn out combos together and I firmly believe that is why he should not be able to. His damage, hit limit, pop-up everything would have to be adjusted around that. Is it worth it? Scorpion (at least in Vanilla) isn't really built like that. So I think it would be fair for him, as well as the fact that he needs a lot of help (all depends on how much help he gets in other areas, though).

That's like saying Ryu's shoryuken does X so Ken's automatically should as well. It is the same move? Same motion? Both characters should blindly have the same properties based around the move? Moreover, every character with a shoryuken should have universal properties? All should come out at the same speed? Recover at the same speed? They are two completely different characters, as similar as they are at the same time. It simply does not work like that. I really hope the end result is heavily, heavily tested.

Scorpion, as bad as he is in VUMK3, didn't even get this ability in VUMK3. Let alone H Smoke. Do you think the option had to of crossed their minds? At least giving it to Scorpion?

Dub... count to 10 and breathe... LOL.

I'm not saying all characters should be the same. What I'm saying is that moves that disable the same way should have the same response. Meaning, if the spear disables, why does Scorpion's spear disable but allow jumping when H.Smoke's and R.Smoke's don't? That's illogical to me. The same way that it is illogical if Sub/Sindel/Cyrax, etc. could disable you and still jump, but yet those 3 cannot.

I think that it has to be handled with kid gloves though. Meaning that while each character should be able to jump after spear, their options need to be different per character so they can balance it properly.

 

[DWednesday]

The main reason is that it seems that Stryker has no good way of approaching good zoning characters

Doesn't this then apply to everyone that doesn't have a certain type of containment, or a teleport?

 

[9.95]

Doesn't this then apply to everyone that doesn't have a certain type of containment, or a teleport?

Yes it does however generally speaking most characters in the game either have a containment move or a teleport

 

[DWednesday]

Sonya, Kano, Sindel, and Stryker then? Maybe Sektor too, probably not though

 

[Juggs]

I spoke with @R.E.O. About this and he agrees with it being an overhead because (to quote him from our conversation)

"the scorpion overhead is more of a pseudo mix up with conditioning and mind games"

It won't shoot him up the tier list and the jump after spear only helps him with damage output after a spear. That is providing you're able to open your opponent up... Which HS, Ermac and Kabal can all do multiple ways. Scorp is all rjs and chip and maybe a combo if you can force a mistake. He def needs one alternate way to open someone up and the overhead is it.

It seems like an unnecessary gimmick. It will work on people early who don't know it's a high, but once everyone knows, it would be pointless. If the first hit was a low, then the last hit was a high, then I would understand and it would make more sense. But I think giving one combo string a low and an overhead is overkill on a character like Scorpion who doesn't need it. So I think he should get the knee starter back of HK, HP, HP, U+LP, and/or HK, HP, U+LP. This makes more sense and would be more useful.

With that buff, he doesn't need much more, Scorpion is already a solid character. So, giving him the ability jump after a spear would be fine. I don't think he needs a forward teleport, tbh. I think the move is good in MKT but I don't think it's necessary in TE when taking all the changes into consideration as well as the buffs I just mentioned.