New World Order X Podcast: Episode 1 - Consider the Crying‏ Part 1 and 2

[SneakyTortoise]

I want to say something about the whole "bringing back pre patch top tier characters to the current game".

If you look at the state of the game now at tournaments, we ALWAYS have a diverse top 8. Every major since 1.06 has consisted of a top 8 of at least 7 different characters, usually more. Pools are hype and upsets are caused which leads to this diversity in top 8s. The only problem is that after we reach top 8 you can almost guarantee either BG, AM or MMH is going to win. The lower tier characters have a great chance of making top 8, but then when a catwoman has to play an AM in GF (like at MLG) you know who's going to win.

If you were to bring the pre patch characters back, this diversity would disappear for top 8. It wouldn't be unpredictable anymore and the lower tiers would have no chance at making top 8. However, you probably would have a harder time calling which character would win the tournament as it could now probably be anyone out of the top 8. So this might result in less hype pools, but a more interesting top 8.

Although a big point people seem to be missing, it's not just "bat girl" winning tournaments. It's Sonic Fox. He placed top 8 in every game he entered at NEC for a reason. So even if you did bring back these characters, he'd still just be mopping people up with whatever character he felt is the best.

 

[Tom Brady]

I want to say something about the whole "bringing back pre patch top tier characters to the current game".

If you look at the state of the game now at tournaments, we ALWAYS have a diverse top 8. Every major since 1.06 has consisted of a top 8 of at least 7 different characters, usually more. Pools are hype and upsets are caused which leads to this diversity in top 8s. The only problem is that after we reach top 8 you can almost guarantee either BG, AM or MMH is going to win. The lower tier characters have a great chance of making top 8, but then when a catwoman has to play an AM in GF (like at MLG) you know who's going to win.

If you were to bring the pre patch characters back, this diversity would disappear for top 8. It wouldn't be unpredictable anymore and the lower tiers would have no chance at making top 8. However, you probably would have a harder time calling which character would win the tournament as it could now probably be anyone out of the top 8. So this might result in less hype pools, but a more interesting top 8.

Although a big point people seem to be missing, it's not just "bat girl" winning tournaments. It's Sonic Fox. He placed top 8 in every game he entered at NEC for a reason. So even if you did bring back these characters, he'd still just be mopping people up with whatever character he felt is the best.

We dont mean throw the most broken version of the characters in. The idea is just slight adjustments and bring up the mids/bottoms a bit more as well. Again,its all just an idea that could sound better on paper.

 

[PunkMafia83]

Exactly, its not "pick a top tier anymore" its learn the basics of the game and wait till a dlc char drops to main it!

Nice to know someone thinks the same

 

[WakeUp DP]

Nice to know someone thinks the same

The majority of us see it that way.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Tom brady: "in most circles, a 7-3 is considerd to be pretty much unwinnable"

What a ridiculous statement. That is in no way what 7-3 means. That´s what 9-1 means. Just because Relaxed State made enough mistakes to lose a game to Revolver doesn´t change the matchup.

And then REO says wellll, Lex CAN walk forward, it´s just slow. No, he can´t. Not if Zod is playing great and perfectly executing his space control. Lex can walk forward all he wants. He´s just gonna block and EX Laser and get pushed back to full screen.

I was looking forward to some entertaining ridiculousness when I clicked play. Instead it´s just nauseating crap from minute one.

 

[coolwhip]

In fairness, when you say that Relaxed didnt execute in that match which is why revolver won. Curbo had pad issues when we played which threw his execution off, making it easier for a SZ to play that mu. Dave's point isn't so much that the mu is not bad, its that Revolver is getting sympathy instead the usual roasting that many other top players have received.

I've seen you go 2-3 against REO's Kabal in casuals on stream. I remember the Curbo match and yeah, I remember the controller issue, but objectively speaking, would you really say Kabal-Sub is as bad as Lex-Zod?

 

[coolwhip]

LIKE KABAL'S METER IS EVER EMPTY!

Then do 214 instead of 212 and adapt, scrub.

 

[coolwhip]

Can't kabal do the flash parry and there would be no consequences if he made the wrong read?

Subzero just doesnt do enough damage imo and it still requires the subzero player to make a lot of reads against kabal. If the subzero player guesses right 2 times, the kabal player will have enough meter to break and get out of the corner. Also the kabal player should already have like two bars when he is finally cornered by subzero.

Question to those who know: If Sub-Zero knocks down Kabal in the corner with 222 as the combo ender, sets-up the ice clone in the corner, and pressures him on wake-up. Would Kabal's parry sustain both breaking the ice clone and the hits from Sub?

What about the 212/214 set-up after B121 when he isn't knocked down?

@Braindead @Relaxedstate

(Braindead, I tagged you first. You're Hollywood).

 

[ChaosTheory]

After watching the vids, I agree with a couple of Sub-Zero match-ups being comparable. Not exact comparisons, comparable. And I don't think Sub is as overall bad as most people believe.

Lex-Zod reminds me of Sub-Kitana. That might not be as easily visible if you're not familiar playing it, but it is. Sub couldn't do any moves. If you blocked one single fan, you know have to inch your way in with no moves. If you do get in, you can't initiate because Kitana is a low hitbox and severely out-ranges you. And then the Square Wave gets her out but that doesn't matter anyway.

It seems like the same "can't do anything" situation unless the favorite fuck up. But Sub doesn't have the opportunity to do what Lex did and take the fight in seconds.

Btw... Kabal-Sub is bad, but Sub can at least play. Struggle to the wall and Sub can actually play with Kabal. But there are at least three matches worse than that off the top of my head. Kenshi, Freddy, Kitana.

I can't fathom Lex-Zod being worse than Sub-Kenshi. Sub will never touch Kenshi once and have the opportunity to drain a whole life bar.

I don't think this is unprecedented. Complete bullshit, I agree. But it's not worse than we've seen even one game ago.

 

[coolwhip]

I think you guys are missing M2Dave's point..

First of all.. SZ vs Kenshi was 1-9. Cant zone, cant use corner game, cant use any specials, cant run away, cant pressure, do no damage, etc... I had no choice but to pick an alt because the mu was unwinnable. No one should be saying "SZ had no 1-9 mu's" because thats false. Blckula's Kenshi was unbeatable to my SZ, Pig's would have been even worse of a beating.

I actually kinda agree with this and discussed this with @STRYKIE in another that MK9 podcast thread. If prime Pig played against you or Denzel in your heyday in a 10 match series I doubt he'd drop more than one match. That match-up could very well be that bad. But then, how is Lex-Zod anything less?

 

[ChaosTheory]

Question to those who know: If Sub-Zero knocks down Kabal in the corner with 222 as the combo ender, sets-up the ice clone in the corner, and pressures him on wake-up. Would Kabal's parry sustain both breaking the ice clone and the hits from Sub?

@Braindead @Relaxedstate @Tom Brady

(Braindead, I tagged you first. You're Hollywood).

He'd be invincible waking up. Clone would shatter and Sub would eat it. Pretty sure.

 

[Tony at Home]

Can we talk about the elephant in the room. Dlc characters.
Mk9
Kenshi
Pre patch skarlet
Freddy k
Injustice
Mmh
Batgirl
Zod
Pre patch scorp

All completely dominant. Well maybe not skarlet.

Don't get me wrong kabal cage sonya Arthur curry and Barry Allen are good too but do you see where I am going?

I understand they have to be good in order to look like an attractive purchase but I don't like this trend.

Maybe this can be discussed on one of the podcasts.

Cheers Dave, tom and reo

Because I get blown up whenever I bring this up. So I'm not even mentioning it anymore. It will literally take this all happening again in MK X for people to establish that this is a pattern.

...also, so no one blows me up for agreeing with you...

Whaaaaat you talking about?? DLC characters no OP! Scorpion sux now cuz nerf and Pre-patch Superman was better anyway and he not DLC!!!!!! Also, lobo not good so ur argument not valid...

 

[@MylesWright_]

Tom Brady is always getting the Rob Kardashian treatment

Because I get blown up whenever I bring this up. So I'm not even mentioning it anymore. It will literally take this all happening again in MK X for people to establish that this is a pattern.

...also, so no one blows me up for agreeing with you...

Whaaaaat you talking about?? DLC characters no OP! Scorpion sux now cuz nerf and Pre-patch Superman was better anyway and he not DLC!!!!!! Also, lobo not good so ur argument not valid...

Why would you get blown up when everyone already knows that characters are nerfed only for better top-tier versions to be released as dlc down the line. Players are willing to pay-out for a new broken dlc character that can get them easy wins online

 

[CrimsonShadow]

]His point is that if several other players went on like Revolver is, they would be CRUSHED on forums and other podcasts.

@rev0lver isn't "going on".. If you ask him a question he'll answer it, but he's not here making threads to complain or doing podcasts for years to complain about how bad his character was and how he's the only one that's managed to get anywhere with him.

I think more importantly though, that after MK9 and IGAU, there are a lot of people that don't want to see this kind of thing (IAZB that oppresses half the cast, a few to where they have absolutely no chance) repeated in MKX. I don't care what game it was accepted in in the past; you can't tell me that playing vs. IAZB and MB low laser in this situation is "fighting games", "footsies", "neutral game", "reads", "patience", etc. I don't even really consider it "zoning", because if you do it perfectly, there are hardly any choices you have to make in order to do it correctly in situations like this -- it's a far cry from using Dhalism or Sagat.

So regardless of what happened in any previous games, now is the time for people to talk about it and stand up for what they want to see in future games.

 

[coolwhip]

We dont mean throw the most broken version of the characters in. The idea is just slight adjustments and bring up the mids/bottoms a bit more as well. Again,its all just an idea that could sound better on paper.

That sounds good in theory, but in this case, you're mainly talking about characters who are still good in this version anyway like Superman, Aquaman (he's more than good, lol), Batman and Deathstroke. Why should Superman have his old F23 back? No thanks. Now, if the argument that we can have one more balance patch to buff characters like Scorpion for instance, then sure.

 

[coolwhip]

He'd be invincible waking up. Clone would shatter and Sub would eat it. Pretty sure.

D'oh. Good point. But I'm guessing this wouldn't work on the 214/212 ice clone set-up since he'd be standing, right (since that happens after B121)? So yeah, I don't think Kabal has it that much easier than other characters with armor to escape the corner against Sub, though we have to account for the fact that he always has meter. I guess the conclusion is...Kabal is good?

 

[Tom Brady]

I don't know why I explained Dave's point lol, he can obviously do that for himself. here is my point of view...

God I'm not even 10 minutes into this thing and this podcast is nearly unbearable. Why the hell is Brady trying to draw analogies to his time with Sub-zero? That has nothing to do with Lex/Zod. If you dont think its a 9-1 then do a breakdown of why.



Quoting this for emphasis because anybody who actually spent the time to analyze the match at all should be able to understand this, and if they actually don't then I question their qualifications to actually do any sort of analysis.
The only reason you won a game at *all* (no offense meant) is because Relaxed State failed to execute. Matchup numbers by their nature don't account for human error.
Reo states at the begining of the podcast that to him a 9-1 is like if you get hit once and you're immediately trapped in an infinite. Well for all intents and purposes that's basically what's happening.

I do not pretend to be any sort of IGAU expert let alone an expert of any MU. I agree 100% with you and revolver that the mu is just about as unwinnable as you can get.

Its just as dumb to say "Its not 1-9, its only 2-8" as it is to say "NO!! this is a 1-9 mu and its worse then a 2-8". 1-9 or 2-8 doesn't matter, they are both just about unwinnable. You get dominated in almost every aspect of the mu and require severe mistakes on the opponents part to even have a chance.

My point was that it doesn't matter about how bad the mu is.. You know its bad and just about unwinnable. Knowing this, you still chose to play the mu anyway. My "coming from a SZ player P.O.V." was that no tears should be shed when you lose the impossible. None were shed for me and none should ever be shed for me or anyone else. We knew the mu and have known the bad mu's we face. You always have the option to learn a counter pick to the mu rather than gut out a 1-9,2-8, or 3-7. You choose to face the handicap match, no one forces you.

You cant have a situation where you are a god when you win but less props go to the opponent when you lose because it wasn't fair. When you win its because you played better than your opponent, its the same when you lose. In a loss its because the opponent played better. That's life, sports, fighters.. Fair doesn't matter, just wins and losses.

I think we all hope we don't see these type of mu's in MKX.

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

Question to those who know: If Sub-Zero knocks down Kabal in the corner with 222 as the combo ender, sets-up the ice clone in the corner, and pressures him on wake-up. Would Kabal's parry sustain both breaking the ice clone and the hits from Sub?

What about the 212/214 set-up after B121 when he isn't knocked down?

@Braindead @Relaxedstate

(Braindead, I tagged you first. You're Hollywood).

I don't believe that I've ever seen that scenario in action; but I can't help but think that parry would lose to whatever is the second thing that hits.

Edit: Actually, no. I feel like Chaos' statement about his wakeup invincibility is accurate. Forgotten MK 9 basic game tech knowledge FTW

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I think you guys are missing M2Dave's point..


Dave is saying that NO ONE cried for other players when they would miss the top 8 by losing 2-8/3-7 mu's. In certain cases getting 9th dispute losing a 2-8 mu when you were eliminated got you blasted as a shit player, an over rated scrub (even if you just placed top 8 at the last several majors). When you would talk about how bad the mu is you would get responses like "not my problem" or "shut up! pick a new character and stop crying". His point is that if several other players went on like Revolver is, they would be CRUSHED on forums and other podcasts. His point is just that no other player ever got the sympathy that Revolver is getting or that no one would be allowed to complain as much about a mu and get away with it.

How is that you can´t see the difference here? I´ve seen horrible matchups before. I played Kenshi, I know how bad Sub has. We´ve watched Sheeva vs Kabal. The Zod/Lex matchup is a different beast. It was hilariously bad. Not necessarily worse than the worst of MK, probably just as bad. But I´ve never seen a match in a game where a character had to take baby steps under fireballs, just to get pushed back by low laser.

9-1´s exist in other games and for other players, but the mechanics that make this one a 9-1 are beyond absurd and were unbelievable to actually watch. That´s where the sympathy comes from. Because we were all laughing in disbelief about it, as Revolver´s giant character inches his way forward, unable to jump once or dash, just to get pushed back again. It was awful, and hilarious. And a unique phenomenon in our gaming history. So everyone making a big deal out of people sympathizing with revolver over this needs to shut up and also get a sense of humor, and perspective.

 

[coolwhip]

I don't believe that I've ever seen that scenario in action; but I can't help but think that parry would lose to whatever is the second thing that hits.

Edit: Actually, no. I feel like Chaos' statement about his wakeup invincibility is accurate. Forgotten MK 9 basic game tech knowledge FTW

Yeah, Chaos' point is probably correct. Though I think what you said applies in case of the standing ice clone set-up after B121.

 

[rev0lver]

Dave is saying that NO ONE cried for other players when they would miss the top 8 by losing 2-8/3-7 mu's. In certain cases getting 9th dispute losing a 2-8 mu when you were eliminated got you blasted as a shit player, an over rated scrub (even if you just placed top 8 at the last several majors). When you would talk about how bad the mu is you would get responses like "not my problem" or "shut up! pick a new character and stop crying". His point is that if several other players went on like Revolver is, they would be CRUSHED on forums and other podcasts. His point is just that no other player ever got the sympathy that Revolver is getting or that no one would be allowed to complain as much about a mu and get away with it..

Who are these several other players? We all know you're talking about yourself. The difference between me and you is that you complained about not being universally considered a top 10 player because you had to play bad matchups. I'm complaining about something broken that everyone else can see. If you actually bothered to read my post, I don't complain about bad matchups. I have to play sinestro-lex, but that matchup is just really difficult, not so much broken. I realize I have to deal w that by not switching but i accept that, I'm not going around asking for extra props for losing bad matchups. Sorry that people are giving me sympathy for seeing how stupid that match is when you want your mk9 ego stroked

 

[IMakeItL00kC00L]

Someone plz turn reo's mic up next time im listening to the podcast and i can't hear him lol

 

[AK XEN0M0RPH]

can you guys name one other character that has made top 3 by two different people at two different majors post patch when no other characters were used?

Doomsday and green lantern

 

[ChaosTheory]

This is just another problem coming from instant-air, horizontal projectiles. I've said it since early MK9. It's dumb.

They cover air and ground simultaneously, the user recovers instantly so they're 100% safe, and by recovering instantly, they're firing them off at ridiculous rates. There is no thinking or consideration involved like there would be if they were sharp, diagonal projectiles, or if they had cool-down/recovery, or if they had a height limitation.

They have all benefit and no drawback.

 

[xWildx]

I have the answer.

Maybe people like Revolver more.