Why Cage isnt S Tier/Why Sonya Is S Tier

[Evil_Riu48]

Sonya isnt a mid range character, shes just better than Cage at mid range as well as being as good as him up close too. Theres no denying that either because you arent gonna be MS cancelling people from mid range because it needs a blockstring.

i dissagree sonya is not as good as cage up close she has good mixups up close but her block strings are not even close to be as good as cage's block strings

here is sonya up close against a opponent who duck as soon as you get a change to ge in his face

22 = sonya getting uppercut/poke out of it
312= sonya getting uppercut/poke out of it
114 = sonya getting uppercut/poke out of it
314= sonya getting uppercut/poke out of it

all of this strings have the same weakness and are very vulnerable to crossup jumps because unlike cage, sonya does not cover any distange when she is doing any of this strings and cage has f32 which even if your opponent crossup jump him they can not punish cage because cage will move a good distance and get out of the way. . . sonya has b21 to cover distance but it is very slow and the firt hit is high


she only has 2 mid attacks 4 and 3 and is like she only have one because 3 it is slow and the range on it really sux. . . 4 is her best mid attack and can be cancel to MS but it has little stun so 4 to MS to dash f to another 4MS will hardly happen in a real fight against a player who knows sonya's tools because they will just poke you out of it and even if it does happen what is she getting from it? 4% block damage for the two 4 that your opponent block when cage can do 12% block damage easy

yea i know you can cancel any of her normals to df3 to stop people from uppercut/poke sonya out of her block strings but df3 is at dissadvantage on block and that will be the end of her rush down because your opponent can now attack you.

do not get me wrong i am not saying she sux up close but she is better at sweep range because d4 in my opinion is her best move.

like i said i am in my way to maxter sonya and i have even thought about changing my mean johnny cage for her but not because she is a better in your face type of character but because she is has more tools to work with

 

[Fatality XBL]

Johnny vs. Sonya, both characters played to their full potential? Sonya wins.

I mean, unless you can get her in the corner/frame traps and read her almost everytime (which isn't very easy since Sonya isn't one of the match-ups that is relatively known for Cage players). Honestly I think I've beaten every Sonya online, BUT I know the players behind her were not on the same level. Once Sonya becomes known and gets out there competitively things will be different, she may be even used to counter Cage.

Right now though F0xy, I don't believe there are enough players on your level that take Sonya seriously enough to think of her as an answer for Cage, even though she should be.

 

[Saint]

Johnny vs. Sonya, both characters played to their full potential? Sonya wins.

I mean, unless you can get her in the corner/frame traps and read her almost everytime (which isn't very easy since Sonya isn't one of the match-ups that is relatively known for Cage players). Honestly I think I've beaten every Sonya online, BUT I know the players behind her were not on the same level. Once Sonya becomes known and gets out there competitively things will be different, she may be even used to counter Cage.

Right now though F0xy, I don't believe there are enough players on your level that take Sonya seriously enough to think of her as an answer for Cage, even though she should be.

First you mention they're played at their fullest potential then you go into the fact that Cage players don't know the matchup. Cage cannot play at his fullest potential then can he?

The thing is, when you're trying to determine a matchup, you can't be situational at all.
You have to compare tools vs tools and that's it.

 

[HurlingDervish]

I agree that the lack of a mid hit string hurts her significantly, considering even Scorpion has 111 and hes a hybrid. HOWEVER I still think shes better than cage IF played to her full potential, the problem with that is, she takes wayyyy more work to "maxter" (lol) than, imo, the entire cast. We simply have not seen her played to her highest potential, as good as Morty is, I think even he would humbly admit theres much more headroom for him to expand in.

like i said i am in my way to maxter sonya and i have even thought about changing my mean johnny cage for her but not because she is a better in your face type of character but because she is has more tools to work with

lol. did I miss something where everyone decided he had reached "verb" level of gdlk-ness?

 

[Evil_Riu48]

Johnny vs. Sonya, both characters played to their full potential? Sonya wins.

I mean, unless you can get her in the corner/frame traps and read her almost everytime (which isn't very easy since Sonya isn't one of the match-ups that is relatively known for Cage players). Honestly I think I've beaten every Sonya online, BUT I know the players behind her were not on the same level. Once Sonya becomes known and gets out there competitively things will be different, she may be even used to counter Cage.

Right now though F0xy, I don't believe there are enough players on your level that take Sonya seriously enough to think of her as an answer for Cage, even though she should be.

i think you are out of topic we are not talking about who beats who in a fight (the matchup) we are talking about who is the better rushdown character

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

You said that D4 is her best move, it cant be. Ducking her strings is never really a problem because she gets free jumps because of fear of divekicks. Its not hard to condition your opponent with her because she has so many ways of hurting them.

Anyway only somebody who doesnt know the matchup would ever try to poke Sonya, the divekick is probably the best anti poke move in the game next the the spin.

 

[Evil_Riu48]

lol. did I miss something where everyone decided he had reached "verb" level of gdlk-ness?

i really did not understand ... are you talking about me spelling master as maxter?

 

[HurlingDervish]

i really did not understand ... are you talking about me spelling master as maxter?

lol yea but im just messing around forget about it

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

You said that D4 is her best move, it cant be. Ducking her strings is never really a problem because she gets free jumps because of fear of divekicks. Its not hard to condition your opponent with her because she has so many ways of hurting them.

Anyway only somebody who doesnt know the matchup would ever try to poke Sonya, the divekick is probably the best anti poke move in the game next the the spin.

It's totally 50/50 with dive kicks. Smart players will punish them, so you can't just throw them out to condition your opponent.

You can't just get jump ins for free.

 

[Fatality XBL]

First you mention they're played at their fullest potential then you go into the fact that Cage players don't know the matchup. Cage cannot play at his fullest potential then can he?

The thing is, when you're trying to determine a matchup, you can't be situational at all.
You have to compare tools vs tools and that's it.

My fault for not paying attention to the nature of the thread, I didn't realize that it was a specifically 'who is the better character, best rushdown/tools' discussion.

 

[Geotakku]

Sonya is a girl, she can't be S tier.

Win.

 

[salvificblood]

It's totally 50/50 with dive kicks. Smart players will punish them, so you can't just throw them out to condition your opponent.

You can't just get jump ins for free.

I believe the divekick acts in asimilar way to Cyber Sub's when it comes to jump ins. If you try to aa her, you could guess wrong and eat a divekick, so people will be reluctant to do anything other than block in a lot of cases. A smart Sonya isn't going to divekick when they know their opponent will be blocking, so there has to be an element of conditioning your opponent to respect your options from the air...

 

[Marvaz]

Riu48, first off i would like to thank you for making me 25$ richer the other day, you know what im talking about. LOL. 10-0 Sub-zero vs sonya, i know that match up is horrible for sonya.

I have to say though,no disrespect but I dont belive you have even scraped the surface to mastering cage. The top jc in the world are foxygr,jop,and sao.Your sonya on the other hand is probably IMO probably 3rd best atm, thats cause i never see other sonyas though. Chef and morty are the best 2 atm. Cage is really really not S tier. I dont play sonya so i got no say in that department. If i had to put cage in a tier list i would say hes high mid.

 

[Demonfang10]

Are you guys talking post or pre-patch? 'Cause we all know JC's getting raped in the patch and will be alot worse than Sonya. It's nice to see Sonya actually be in the higher tiers after MK1.

 

[Evil_Riu48]

Riu48, first off i would like to thank you for making me 25$ richer the other day, you know what im talking about. LOL. 10-0 Sub-zero vs sonya, i know that match up is horrible for sonya.

I have to say though,no disrespect but I dont belive you have even scraped the surface to mastering cage. The top jc in the world are foxygr,jop,and sao.Your sonya on the other hand is probably IMO probably 3rd best atm, thats cause i never see other sonyas though. Chef and morty are the best 2 atm. Cage is really really not S tier. I dont play sonya so i got no say in that department. If i had to put cage in a tier list i would say hes high mid.

i don't have a big ego to take your post as disrespectful when you are only giving your opinion but i do want to make something clear i never called myself best sonya others did. . . i would be very arrogant if i start calling myself best sonya when i only have been using her for about 2 weeks and have not matchups experience when others have been using her for months and have matchups experience. . . people calling me best sonya tells me i am doing something right with her and i take it as a big complement knowing i can and will make her so much better than she is today. i do thanks everybody who is giving me the tittle of best sonya and i will work hard to keep them thinking the same way they are now.

i do have a feeling i will change the way people play and look at her

 

[Badboy Takuma]

Now compare these to Sonya, who is currently considered Mid-tier:

Pros:

Arguably best frame traps in the game (Rivaled only by Cage)
112 MS reset - Leads to 50/50s / throw setups / more blockstrings back into MS cancels again.
Fast normals which always lead to a mixup for free once canceled into MS (114 being the best blockstring)
Safe Cartwheel with armour on EX which can be comboed off of, better than Ex Shadow kick
Beats all of the top tier bar KL relatively easily
Good pokes
Military stance
Divekick
High meterless damage with resets too, 48% meterless midscreen with a reset into MS
Arc kick to dodge projectiles and get in quickly Ex has armour
Her projectile wins in trades if she shoots first they arent gonna be shooting back again, unless theyre kano
Fast meter building
Sunglasses (Costume 2)

Cons:

Can be killed by negative edge
The lack of a proper mid hit level move could be considered but what does it matter when you have a military stance
Slightly more punishable but if her moves are used in the right context it doesnt really matter.
Steeper learning curve


So can somebody tell me why hes considered S Tier along with characters like Kabal and Raiden? Especially since a character lower in the tiers than him has equal offensive and better evasive moves. Either theyre both S tier of theyre Both A tier really.

i main sonya and i do 4000 matches with her, u forget one thing, sonya has poor wakeups..
she lost to an rushdown liu kang or kabal 4 example, if liu kang do untechable knockdown, sonya is dead, imho

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

i main sonya and i do 4000 matches with her, u forget one thing, sonya has poor wakeups..
she lost to an rushdown liu kang or kabal 4 example, if liu kang do untechable knockdown, sonya is dead, imho

Armoured Cartwheel sometimes works, her wakeups may be bad, but TBH wakeups in this game are overrated. Theyre usually baited and punished so it doesnt really matter.

 

[PND i2 Gaug3]

Armoured Cartwheel sometimes works

unless your playing against a grab happy jax

 

[Konqrr]

Yeah it has to miss to be punished

Cage's flip kick is punished on block by 6 frame moves like spin and most characters d1. Jax/Cyrax and others can d1, then dash in for a juggle. Kitana can d1~EX Fan Lift, etc...

I like this thread, lots of great points. I honestly think that Sonya isn't up there because of how hard she is to play (ie: not many people know what she is capable of) where Cage is pretty straight forward.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Cage's flip kick is punished on block by 6 frame moves like spin and most characters d1. Jax/Cyrax and others can d1, then dash in for a juggle. Kitana can d1~EX Fan Lift, etc...

I like this thread, lots of great points. I honestly think that Sonya isn't up there because of how hard she is to play (ie: not many people know what she is capable of) where Cage is pretty straight forward.

Gotta look at things realistically rather than theoretically in this game though. While some characters with a 6 frame move may be able to catch him, its almost as hard to do as trying to hit confirm Sektors leg lift U3 into a teleport, which most of the time wont happen.

 

[Konqrr]

Gotta look at things realistically rather than theoretically in this game though. While some characters with a 6 frame move may be able to catch him, its almost as hard to do as trying to hit confirm Sektors leg lift U3 into a teleport, which most of the time wont happen.

Punishing Cage with a d1 juggle from blocking the flip kick is not hard at all. I baited it at EVO vs JOP but failed to link d1 to EX Fan Lift.