What's new

Why Cage isnt S Tier/Why Sonya Is S Tier

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
I've noticed that so many people seem to put Cage in S tier. Yet most of these people dont even main/play him. I cant understand how people can seperate Cage and Sonya in the tiers. What I've written here is all based on high level play with Cage in comparison to Sonya look at the pros & cons:

Pros:

Arguably best frame traps in the game (Rivaled only by Sonya)
Nutpunch reset/to escape other characters frametraps
Fast normals (F3 being the best)
Safe Flipkick (ONLY ON BLOCK!)
Good pokes
Arguably fastest meter building (Rivaled by Sonya/Kabal/KL)
Beats Kung Lao relatively easily
Generally safe gameplay (Once hes close)
Sunglasses


Cons:

Once hes outside sweep distance he has NOTHING. The Ex Shadow kick is only ever a good idea to get the winning hit in OR get the life lead vs a SZ player. This is the biggest reason why he cant be S tier. Take a look at Cyrax/KL/Raiden/Kabal/Reptile, all of them still have offensive options once outside of sweep distance, Cage has nothing other than his green balls which are punishable from rediculous distances and are probably one of the easiest to make a trade with. Compare cages projectile to nearly every other character and you'll realise that a trade is usually a bad idea.

This is why for every second you arent close with Cage you're losing the fight in most matchups. If you're not close you're not killing them//building meter etc etc.

He has no way in other than jumping/dashing/ducking.
To keep his frame traps going consistently you need to stay way more focused on the opponents blocking/movement pattern. And alot of it is making a good predicition about how to start your next one, otherwise they'll just jump/poke out all day.

Characters that he already has bad matchups with such as Reptile and Ermac, already get a natural advantage because of their hitboxes, meaning you cant use EX FB frametraps on them. This means you have to be even more careful what moves you throw out, and basically makes the F33 string completely useless in these matchups.

He gets murdered by the top tier characters, which you're most likely to see in tournaments anyway.

Once Sub and Noob get buffed and have armour to get him off the matchups will go back to their previous lobsided ways.
Since the majority of damage will come from chip it means that the damage is never always going to be 100% guaranteed.
Which would then also mean that his learning curve is actually quite steep, if you want to know how to maintain the offense.

Now compare these to Sonya, who is currently considered Mid-tier:

Pros:

Arguably best frame traps in the game (Rivaled only by Cage)
112 MS reset - Leads to 50/50s / throw setups / more blockstrings back into MS cancels again.
Fast normals which always lead to a mixup for free once canceled into MS (114 being the best blockstring)
Safe Cartwheel with armour on EX which can be comboed off of, better than Ex Shadow kick
Beats all of the top tier bar KL relatively easily
Good pokes
Military stance
Divekick
High meterless damage with resets too, 48% meterless midscreen with a reset into MS
Arc kick to dodge projectiles and get in quickly Ex has armour
Her projectile wins in trades if she shoots first they arent gonna be shooting back again, unless theyre kano
Fast meter building
Sunglasses (Costume 2)

Cons:

Can be killed by negative edge
The lack of a proper mid hit level move could be considered but what does it matter when you have a military stance
Slightly more punishable but if her moves are used in the right context it doesnt really matter.
Steeper learning curve


So can somebody tell me why hes considered S Tier along with characters like Kabal and Raiden? Especially since a character lower in the tiers than him has equal offensive and better evasive moves. Either theyre both S tier of theyre Both A tier really.
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
Honestly, I put Cage and Sonya both in A tier. You do have a point in how underestimated she is. Cage's weaknesses totally don't give him s-tier status.
 

Ayx

Omnipresent
Sonya has a steep learning curve, and I think Negative edge causes a pretty strong factor in her from what's happened to me. Then again I don't use her as often because the MS Reset is tough to keep nailing, kinda like Kabal's Dash Cancel.

Johnny Cage seems much easier to pick up (compared to Sonya) and you say Sub-Zero and Noob but they aren't too many of them around. I so agree, if Cage is S-Tier he should be placed into A tier. People have discovered too many things by now to consider him giving an advantage in the tier list. (Though I think Tier Lists are dumb in general, personally.)
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Sonya has a steep learning curve, and I think Negative edge causes a pretty strong factor in her from what's happened to me. Then again I don't use her as often because the MS Reset is tough to keep nailing, kinda like Kabal's Dash Cancel.

Johnny Cage seems much easier to pick up (compared to Sonya) and you say Sub-Zero and Noob but they aren't too many of them around. I so agree, if Cage is S-Tier he should be placed into A tier. People have discovered too many things by now to consider him giving an advantage in the tier list. (Though I think Tier Lists are dumb in general, personally.)
In all honesty I think that Sonya is easier to play than Cage, she has so many divekick setups and the MS cancel stuff just becomes muscle memory after a while anyway.
 

Name v.5.0

Iowa's Finest.
This is a very good point. I main JC and tinkered with Sonya. After extensive play I believe neither can be S tier. Johnny just gets butt fucked so easy when he's outside shadow kick range. 50% of the people I play know how to get out of JC's frame traps and are willing to take damge to do so. Then they run away and zone their asses off.

I've really been considering getting a new main. I'm tired of it.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
This is a very good point. I main JC and tinkered with Sonya. After extensive play I believe neither can be S tier. Johnny just gets butt fucked so easy when he's outside shadow kick range. 50% of the people I play know how to get out of JC's frame traps and are willing to take damge to do so. Then they run away and zone their asses off.

I've really been considering getting a new main. I'm tired of it.
Dont change lol. Everybody can be beaten, I was just stating why he isnt an S Tier character.
Hopefully this weekend I'll be able to show off some Sonya stuff.
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Cage will be easy to play (with exceptions like yours), when Sub gets his armoured slide. Sonya will remain a more even matchup because she does not rely entirely on her pressure. That's why I think she'll have less bad matchups than Cage in the end. How bad would you say the Noob matchup will be for Sonya once he gets his armour?
 

sLeeK

Noob
Tier lists are pretty bad and never really understood them.. the character is only as good as the player. Good example of this is cd jr. Jax or hell even Slip/checks scorpion. I could be wrong, but in my opinion that's how I feel.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
I just like how Sunglasses were included on both of the lists.

Sonya's Taste The Rainbow Arc Kick is one of the most annoying moves in the goddamn game.
I thought her and the fucking kali sticks in Deadly Alliance were bad, but she's definitely a diamond made out of solid bitch hiding in the rough in this game.
Wouldn't be surprised to see more Cage players side with his more voluptiuous counterpart once the frametrap game gets old.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Tier lists are pretty bad and never really understood them.. the character is only as good as the player. Good example of this is cd jr. Jax or hell even Slip/checks scorpion. I could be wrong, but in my opinion that's how I feel.
I'm halfway, obviously the player is the MAJOR factor, but still characters do still undeniably have an effect
 

Error

DF2+R2
There is no way Ermac is a bad match-up against Johnny Cage. But I do agree that Sonya seems terribly underrated.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
There is no way Ermac is a bad match-up against Johnny Cage. But I do agree that Sonya seems terribly underrated.
Ermac wrecks Cage lol, half of his frame traps dont work because of his hitbox, and on top of that Cage wont be able to get in
 

sLeeK

Noob
Ermac wrecks Cage lol, half of his frame traps dont work because of his hitbox, and on top of that Cage wont be able to get in
I just want to put this link in here, watch reo play against ermac/reptile/noob with cage starting @ 55:00. Reo is fucking nuts, I don't know how he does it.

http://www.twitch.tv/kombatnetwork/b/288722051

I agree with you the character does come into effect some what, but not more so then the player. No I am not turning this into a pissing match I am just stating my opinion. No flame please.

One more thing I watched your tourny footage and you had me rolling with your nutpunches under projectiles LOL #mindgames
 

Altaire

Noob
I really wouldn't say Cage gets murdered by the top-tier characters. The characters who are most widely contended as S-tier right now are Kung Lao, Raiden, Kabal and Reptile, all of whom he has an answer for. Cage vs. Kung Lao is 5-5, I know that one from experience. Cage vs. Raiden doesn't seem like it'd be too bad, since Raiden can't even teleport in without the risk of getting shut down and his B3 1 2 will just eat an EX shadow kick. Cage vs. Reptile can't be any worse than 6-4 Reptile, and while I've really never seen/played Cage vs. Kabal, Kabal's IAF could easily be shut down by the EX shadow kick with almost zero margin of error (which is a pretty big deal, because most of the time, you run the risk of mistiming it/guessing wrong and eating a full punish if it's blocked).

Cage is a very limited character, but he's so good at what he does that I still consider him S tier. That said, I also consider Sonya as a potential S tier character, but I've yet to SEE a good enough Sonya. She sounds great on paper, but I'll have to see what she can really do in practice before I make a conclusion.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
I just want to put this link in here, watch reo play against ermac/reptile/noob with cage starting @ 55:00. Reo is fucking nuts, I don't know how he does it.

http://www.twitch.tv/kombatnetwork/b/288722051

I agree with you the character does come into effect some what, but not more so then the player. No I am not turning this into a pissing match I am just stating my opinion. No flame please.

One more thing I watched your tourny footage and you had me rolling with your nutpunches under projectiles LOL #mindgames
To be fair though the Ermac player wasnt on REOs level, whereas if you put some Ermac player like Metsoz Vs My Cage you can see how the matchup really works.
 
i tried picking up cage but i hated how he had 'limited, easy to counter zoning'. And i love playing playing my zoning game into my rushing game so sonya fit better for me with her 112 MS reset, beautiful. Works wonders and has crazy pressure which can throw an opponent off guard. Everyone usually knows what JC will do with him being so popular, dont be suprised to see a great sonya player win a (another)tournament. All it takes is one win and the character will blow up and everyone will be on the sonya bandwagon. Morty Sienfield plays a great (if not the best) sonya ive seen, also wonderchef has a great sonya. Anyone looking for sonya vid go to this link http://frame-advantage.com/Search.aspx?game=12&ch=369 has TONS and also other any character and a very to use search engine.
 

Ether

Noob
Good thread. I'm dropping CSZ for an actual good rushdown character. I was literally just in the lab with Cage and Sonya, before noticing this thread. I was just gonna go with Cage, but apparently Sonya has some pretty sick MS shenanigans? I'll check it out.

Also, yeah, negative edge is BITCH for Sonya. Goddammit, Netherrealm.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
I hadn't honestly thought of Sonya's viability before, but it makes sense, Cage can't do shit against zoning without meter...Sonya can.
 

BenGmanUk

Get staffed bro
Ssssh foxy! As much as I'm looking forward to seeing what you've done with sonya I'm kind of hoping the cat stays in the bag so to speak. Its awesome wrecking people with her! :)