Why Cage isnt S Tier/Why Sonya Is S Tier

[RWDY Nori]

Cage vs. Kung Lao is 5-5, I know that one from experience.

Cage beats KL 6-4. KL gets out rushed down by Cage and has to use spins to get him off. If a spin is block, he's eating a nutpunch and a new frame trap. KL does not win this fight, at all

As far as the topic/thread, I'd love to see what a top tier Sonya looks like and I agree also that Cage is not top tier, upper mid for sure

 

[M2Dave]

Yeah it has to miss to be punished

Flip kick is not safe on block. When the flip kick gets blocked, Johnny Cage is considered airborne for a while. Some characters with a 6 frame d+1 can catch him airborne and then follow up with a combo. Kung Lao can obviously punish with the spin, Raiden can punish with superman, and so on.

As far as Cage and Sonya go, Cage has f+3 and EX fireball traps. He also has a full screen armor attack to deal with projectiles. While flip kick is roughly -11 on block, some characters cannot punish it, meaning Cage has a safe wake up attack. You make some good points, but I am not yet sold that Sonya is the superior character. I would like to see some visual evidence of your claims. Cage is the best rush down character in the game in my opinion.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I really wouldn't say Cage gets murdered by the top-tier characters. The characters who are most widely contended as S-tier right now are Kung Lao, Raiden, Kabal and Reptile, all of whom he has an answer for. Cage vs. Kung Lao is 5-5, I know that one from experience. Cage vs. Raiden doesn't seem like it'd be too bad, since Raiden can't even teleport in without the risk of getting shut down and his B3 1 2 will just eat an EX shadow kick. Cage vs. Reptile can't be any worse than 6-4 Reptile, and while I've really never seen/played Cage vs. Kabal, Kabal's IAF could easily be shut down by the EX shadow kick with almost zero margin of error (which is a pretty big deal, because most of the time, you run the risk of mistiming it/guessing wrong and eating a full punish if it's blocked).

Cage is a very limited character, but he's so good at what he does that I still consider him S tier. That said, I also consider Sonya as a potential S tier character, but I've yet to SEE a good enough Sonya. She sounds great on paper, but I'll have to see what she can really do in practice before I make a conclusion.

About the iAF against Cage, the shadow kick is not the answer, because if you wanna frametrap people you're gonna need meter quite regularly. In general the Ex Shadow kick is useless, its only ever worth using to gain a lifelead vs Sub/Smoke or to finish off a round against a projectile.

Only 1 of Cages frametraps is possible against raiden, and thats from a D4, everything else can be teleported out of.
Most of Cages frametraps dont work against reptile, but more than you can use against Raiden, all because of his low hitbox.
Vs Kung Lao Cage wins because KL is too slow to fight Cage up close at all.
Kabal can Ex Dash out of all of Cages frametraps, which is way better than Cage just Ex Shadow kicking an iAF

 

[Raiman]

Vs Kung Lao Cage wins because KL is too slow to fight Cage up close at all.

how is kung lao too slow. he's got the fastest moves in the game.

 

[Ruuku1012]

Yeah it has to miss to be punished

I'm pretty sure some characters punish it with fast specials or normals.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

how is kung lao too slow. he's got the fastest moves in the game.

He has the spin, thats it. He cant just spin for free when hes being frametrapped, he has to think harder than most other characters because he doesnt have a fast armoured move to get out and his normals are all slower than Cages/cant be turned into frametraps

 

[Raiman]

He has the spin, thats it. He cant just spin for free when hes being frametrapped, he has to think harder than most other characters because he doesnt have a fast armoured move to get out and his normals are all slower than Cages/cant be turned into frametraps

he's got a 7 frame normal excluding pokes and uppercut, cage doesn't

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

he's got a 7 frame normal excluding pokes and uppercut, cage doesn't

Cages 1 is 8 frames, and KL will be in block stun, so its impossible for the 7 frame normal to even come out in time to counter cages 1. But it still doesnt change the fact that Cage kills KL

 

[Raiman]

Cages 1 is 8 frames, and KL will be in block stun, so its impossible for the 7 frame normal to even come out in time to counter cages 1. But it still doesnt change the fact that Cage kills KL

just saying, KL is a fast mf. but hey if cage really does kill kl that bad than good, at least one character does

 

[Evil_Riu48]

cage = in your face rush down character with the fasters normals in the game and the best frmas traps in the game and great mid range punishment but all his tools will only work if you get your opponent to block so that you can start your frames traps



sonya = overall character with tools every where in the screem great projectile game and good sweep range rush down game but her mid attacks are weak and her specials are slow


sonya vs cage i have learn and maxter cage since the game came out and today i am in my way to maxter sonya as well and i have to say that sonya and cage do not play anything alike . . .johnny cage is an in your face character and sonya is a mid range character most of the time mistake it to be an in your face character

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

cage = in your face rush down character with the fasters normals in the game and the best frmas traps in the game and great mid range punishment but all his tools will only work if you get your opponent to block so that you can start your frames traps



sonya = overall character with tools every where in the screem great projectile game and good sweep range rush down game but her mid attacks are weak and her specials are slow


sonya vs cage i have learn and maxter cage since the game came out and today i am in my way to maxter sonya as well and i have to say that sonya and cage do not play anything alike . . .johnny cage is an in your face character and sonya is a mid range character most of the time mistake it to be an in your face character

Sonya isnt a mid range character, shes just better than Cage at mid range as well as being as good as him up close too. Theres no denying that either because you arent gonna be MS cancelling people from mid range because it needs a blockstring.

 

[RWDY Nori]

What block strings does Sonya have to get people to stop ducking? Cage seems to have no problem getting people to stand up

 

[BenGmanUk]

What block strings does Sonya have to get people to stop ducking? Cage seems to have no problem getting people to stand up

No strings as such, only f4 and MS~3+1. The issue with a good Sonya isn't do I block high or low? It's when is the gap in this string coming? She has so many mix-up options it's crazy.

 

[shura30]

i 100% agree to foxy

mk is still in the phase where easiest/fastest to learn character are placed high in tier lists

by the way cage should not be lowered below the second group of tiers
he's one of the best at keeping the opponent in block stance guessing all the time wich string will come next

and since in mk we don't have shoryukens to get out of pressure, you need to poke or armor out with the obvious risks

on the other hand, cage gets completely destroyed by projectiles
and since there are so many good fireballs (the knockdown ones being the best to me) he has a lot of troubles against other widely used top tiers (kabal the most)

sonya is harder to master but on the long run her projectile, arc kick, ms and juggling jabs will make the difference
her divekick is arguably one of the best specials in the whole game. she can quickly change jump trajectory and land a full combo from it
her damage output is high too

 

[THTB]

You guys think too much into high or low. This game is actually evolving far away from that. You don't have to have a good high/low game to have a "good mixup game". It's all about the options you have for pressure, period.

 

[shura30]

You guys think too much into high or low. This game is actually evolving far away from that. You don't have to have a good high/low game to have a "good mixup game". It's all about the options you have for pressure, period.

having high/low options will always force your opponent to guess on them among the other things

you can crouch all the time waiting for a whiffed standing normal against characters with no overheads

 

[THTB]

Most high/low mixups in this game are too easy to react to...and aside from Scorpion and Freddy, usually don't reward much if they are difficult to react to (And in both cases, they get punished hard if they guess wrong). You can usually just block in a certain position and react from there.

Again, this game's pressure works by way of mixups that force you to guess when not to block.

 

[M2Dave]

Most high/low mixups in this game are too easy to react to...and aside from Scorpion and Freddy, usually don't reward much if they are difficult to react to. You can usually just block in a certain position and react from there.

Again, this game's pressure works by way of mixups that force you to guess when not to block.

This.

Blocked normal attacks cause chip damage and build a lot of meter. More meter means access to enhanced special moves, combo breakers, and X-Rays. Very few characters in this game depend on high / low mix ups because the mix ups are usually fuzzy-guaradable or very unsafe (i.e., Scorpion, Quan Chi). The top tier characters of the game do not take advantage of high / low mix ups. The game revolves more around quick strings that can be hit confirmed into combos which all the top tier characters, including Johnny Cage, have access to.

 

[shura30]

it's not a matter of reactions
it's the amount of options your opponent have to keep you busy guessing what will come next

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Most high/low mixups in this game are too easy to react to...and aside from Scorpion and Freddy, usually don't reward much if they are difficult to react to (And in both cases, they get punished hard if they guess wrong). You can usually just block in a certain position and react from there.

Again, this game's pressure works by way of mixups that force you to guess when not to block.

By good mixup game with Sonya I never meant high or low.

Off of 112 reset she can (as well as the obvious high or low) throw, jump in or get a blockstring.
Then on her blockstrings you can cancel any hit into MS, from MS again u can go high low throw crossup or blockstring again

 

[Tom Brady]

99.999999% of all hit level mix ups in mk9 can be fuzzy guarded.

 

[InnerSycosis]

By good mixup game with Sonya I never meant high or low.

Off of 112 reset she can (as well as the obvious high or low) throw, jump in or get a blockstring.
Then on her blockstrings you can cancel any hit into MS, from MS again u can go high low throw crossup or blockstring again

Never tried using Sonya, but you're definitely making a case for her!

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Sonya isnt a mid range character, shes just better than Cage at mid range as well as being as good as him up close too. Theres no denying that either because you arent gonna be MS cancelling people from mid range because it needs a blockstring.

Sonya's normals have a terrible time hitting crouchers, so she doesn't have that sustained inside pressure that Johnny does.

Her strength comes from right outside of poke range where the opponent has to deal with the threat of dive kick, normal jump in, D4, F22, F4, and straight MS followups.

That paired with her amazing fireballs and GDLK uppercut make her one of the strongest footsies characters in the game by a large margin.




Her inside game has too many flaws, like the fact that you can be poked out of 1 1 4 xx MS before any followup, or the fact that the second hit of 2 1 doesn't hit crouchers, so you can't even MS cancel it on block if you didn't jail the opponent with a jump punch starter.




Johnny's entire game is based on forcing the opponent to take a risk once he's touching them, otherwise they'll be chipped to death.

Sonya is one of the most versatile characters in the game with strong zoning, footsies, high/low mixups, and whiff punishes.

 

[shura30]

99.999999% of all hit level mix ups in mk9 can be fuzzy guarded.

so, if i keep block down and hit low at high speed my character can never be hit ?

 

[Crathen]

Since in mk9 if you block you can't tech throws there are 2 layers of mixups , first blocking or not blocking and in case you block high or low along with all the cutted strings ( frametraps ) into other strings or throws makes this game upclose defense a real guessing game where the minor threat is taking a throw or block another string.

There's more but there's no reason to talk about it in this thread.