Feminist ad

[THTB]

I'm a feminist.

Pay discrepancies are real; the infographic above even says so but tries to hide behind sexist smoke and mirrors.

Take a second to stop the constant denial and just *assume* that some of the inequalities of our society actually exist. Once you break that barrier, you can work on solutions to problems, no matter how theoretical you think they are.

THIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSS

 

[Ray'sGoodLiquor]

And this is why I avoid the off topic discussion threads here. Good day.

 

[Pan1cMode]

I'm a feminist.

Pay discrepancies are real; the infographic above even says so but tries to hide behind sexist smoke and mirrors.

Take a second to stop the constant denial and just *assume* that some of the inequalities of our society actually exist. Once you break that barrier, you can work on solutions to problems, no matter how theoretical you think they are.

You mean that 1-5% difference that couldn't possibly due to the fact that on average males work more hours and more overtime than females, take less flexible hours and don't halt their careers for rearing a family. No, that couldn't possibly explain it at all.

 

[Kzaoo]

EDIT: My opinions aren't necessarily these. There are some good points raised, though.

 

[kabelfritz]

gender equality? yes.

people who think they need to pull of a show because they are born as woman (or man)? no.

 

[Tony at Home]

Amazing ad.

If you feel uncomfortable watching then it is a success. That is the point.

I have a few critiques about neo-liberal feminism and it becoming this capital product. However, most people need feminism in their life so dearly that I'm willing to let it slide just for the awareness. I like to think of persons like Beyoncé and Emma Watson as 'gateway' feminists in order to make it more digestible for the mainstream

It makes me uncomfortable because it's borderline child abuse, cynical marketing, done by an exploitive company that has a track record of using controversies to make a quick buck under the guise of them doing it for a good cause.

Reading Hitler's Mein Kampf for history class made me uncomfortable- that didn't make it a good thing. I'm tired of seeing the argument "well if it makes you angry, then it's working!". It fails to delineate the source of the anger- it's not stirring up irrational anger from bigots who see that their unfair world is crumbling beneath them, it's stirring anger from feminist such as myself who just saw an ad that pretty much plays into the whole stereotype of "Angry pissed off irrational feminist blogger"

It's basically getting kids to rage at the world by telling them about injustices before they have the nuance to understand it. Kids will always separate things into "good guys vs bad guys", because they don't have the mental capacity to understand institutional or systemic unfairness. They're telling the kids "tell the camera that you're probably going to be sexuallly assaulted and get paid less", before they have the mental capacity to understand why for any other reason than the world is irrationally evil.

This doesn't output activism in kids- rather it makes them jaded and cynical, because as I mentioned before, they only have the mental capacity to view it as an irrationally evil world that can't be dealt with.

All I saw was a bunch of kids being fed things they were too young to understand- having their innocence sacrificed just so a for-profit company could sell a few t-shirts. Hopefully this trend won't continue. "Hey everyone, stand up against racism, sponsored by McDonalds!"

 

[Tony at Home]

Full article for those who want to read it:

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2014/10/24/fckh8-exploits-little-girls-to-sell-t-shirts/

"There is nothing feminist about using little girls as props in order to sell t-shirts—in fact, I would argue that this is the opposite of feminism. There is nothing feminist about exploiting a bunch of little girls by having them swear and talk about rape statistics just so that FCKH8 can make a quick buck. There is nothing feminist about creating an association between potty-mouthed little kids and social justice—and that’s not a slight against potty-mouths, because I fucking love swearing. But rather a statement on the fact that this video plays into a lot of the negative stereotypes that people already have about feminism.


On top of all that, there is for sure nothing feminist about having girls as young as six years old discussing rape and sexual assault; I would hope that at that age, most kids have never even heard the word rape, let alone had to recite facts about it for an audience of thousands, maybe even millions. I feel sick that these children are being taught about subjects like rape just so that a t-shirt company can make a provocative advertisement. The point that especially crosses the line between “this is problematic” and “I want to flip a table” is the moment where the five little girls spout off the statistic that one in five women will be raped in their lifetime, and then ask which of them it will be. Having a little girl demand to know if she’ll be raped just so that you can sell a few shirts is so far beyond the realm of what should be acceptable that I have no words for it.
"

there's alot of similar articles, but by and large this has been denounced as non-feminist, as it uses awful, immoral means to get the message across, and gives a good ideology a bad name. Sad to see some people are falling for it. Don't side with everyone who agrees with you- because their reasons aren't always as well-meaning as yours.

I seriously wanted to throw up when I imagined a camera man telling little girls they might get raped later in life. Yeah, tell them that before they have the mental capacity to understand the problem, I'm sure it won't mess them up in any way!

 

[Kzaoo]

This video basically portrays feminists as a bunch of little brats cursing and throwing tantrums about things are 'so not fair!'

This, if aiming to progress the movement forward, is a very stupid campaign. Not because the problems raised aren't real, no the problems are real, at least to an extent, but because of that portrayal of the feminist movement, it makes it harder to take the issues seriously. They're making children echo things that they truly have no comprehension of to push their agenda forward. The thing is, though, it's all stuff that has been said time and time again, so there's not even the thought of "well, that's pretty scummy, but there's a point to this." No, instead, all there appears to be are sensationalist statistics presented in a way that's just as sensationalistic as the statistics as well as being juvenile, childish and borderline unethical.

It's been mentioned here before, but it emanates the feeling that it is trying to, rather than support the movement, shock impressionable people into eating up propaganda so they can sell a product.

It just paints a really poor image for feminism. Feminism has a poor enough image as it is and all this ad does is perpetuate the ignorant, tumblrista image that I think a lot of rational people who support feminism want to get rid of.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

That must have been one evil football to do such a thing... and for the people to have such unwaivering support of the football is so piggish it makes my skin crawl

Omg dude I'm screen shotting this. Thank you.

 

[BillStickers]

You mean that 1-5% difference that couldn't possibly due to the fact that on average males work more hours and more overtime than females, take less flexible hours and don't halt their careers for rearing a family. No, that couldn't possibly explain it at all.

It wouldn't because those stats all take those factors into account. You're not saying anything that researchers haven't already studied and controlled for.

 

[BlackBryan]

to be fair, if a woman changes her life for you and you agree to support her and then you divorce it's kind of a dick thing to have her hung out to try because she made that sacrifice. A lot of situations she deserves some support and vice/versa

This is the exact opinion that is wrong. Why is she the only one that changed her life and made sacrifices? America acts like men don't have to do anything but exist and women will just start blowing them for that fact alone. A divorce will rattle anyone's life, as will marriage. Don't do it if you're not willing to come out the other end unsure and beat up.

 

[rev0lver]

It'd be exactly like the FGC if women didn't have to pay entry fee, were given an easy bracket and were given no. 1 seed at every tournament. No I'm not saying women have it easier than men, but what I am saying is you're completely disregarding female autonomy when you deny the fact that when given a choice of jobs, females prefer non-STEM jobs with more flexible working arrangements and less job risk. You're making it out as if women don't have a choice, when the reality is they have a choice, they just choose different things to men.

I was talking to someone the other day who lamented the lack of females in STEM fields. I asked her what she was studying, she replied, "Political sciences." I then asked her why she didn't study something science/maths related. She told me that didn't interest her. She failed to see the hypocrisy in her statements.

I'm saying you're disregarding why that is. The reason there's a lack of females in STEM fields stems (ha) from many different factors. Women do not feel comfortable in these environments. The stereotypes about women and the way people treat them in engineering and computer science is a legitimate problem. There are other factors affecting this like stereotype threat during schooling, something that was also a big part of what we studied during my time in research. Then they face issues of discrimination when they apply to programs and apply for jobs. It makes it take balls for a woman to enter the field. The fact that many women who are educated in these fields do not pursue them later speaks a lot more than you think.

 

[GuamoKun]

Is it weird that at least in my life gender issues and that kind of stuff like only exists in the internet.

Idk I just want to beat you in video games I don't care wtf you are

 

[Relaxedstate]

Is it weird that at least in my life gender issues and that kind of stuff like only exists in the internet.

Idk I just want to beat you in video games I don't care wtf you are

Not weird. Just privilege, since you don't have to deal with it/can ignore it

 

[GuamoKun]

Not weird. Just privilege, since you don't have to deal with it/can ignore it

you might be right. I can see how this issues present a genuine need for discourse and what not but like when I try to look into them its just full of personal politics and I'm just like "huh well thats that".

Also this is literally the first time someone told me I was privileged after I hear it on the internet and stuff.

 

[Shaazzyam]

It wouldn't because those stats all take those factors into account. You're not saying anything that researchers haven't already studied and controlled for.

Unless you force men and women to choose the same occupations and spend the exact same amounts of time raising children a pay gap will exist for reasons that aren't discrimination.

I don't know how many more studies you need that I already haven't posted. Can we move on now, please.

I'm saying you're disregarding why that is. The reason there's a lack of females in STEM fields stems (ha) from many different factors. Women do not feel comfortable in these environments. The stereotypes about women and the way people treat them in engineering and computer science is a legitimate problem. There are other factors affecting this like stereotype threat during schooling, something that was also a big part of what we studied during my time in research. Then they face issues of discrimination when they apply to programs and apply for jobs. It makes it take balls for a woman to enter the field. The fact that many women who are educated in these fields do not pursue them later speaks a lot more than you think.

I'm sure hiring discrimination makes up some percentage of it (along with minorities). But ultimately all evidence suggests that though young women have the talent for engineering and computer science, their interest tends to lie elsewhere. To say that these women remain helplessly in thrall to sexist stereotypes, and manipulated into life choices by forces beyond their control, is divorced from reality and demeaning. If a woman wants to be a teacher rather than a miner, or a veterinarian rather than a petroleum engineer, more power to her.

Its great if anyone capable of filling a role was given the opportunity to do so - but that's distinctly different from - all roles must be equally/proportionally represented by all demographics.

 

[BillStickers]

Unless you force men and women to choose the same occupations and spend the exact same amounts of time raising children a pay gap will exist for reasons that aren't discrimination.

I don't know how many more studies you need that I already haven't posted. Can we move on now, please.

There are men and women that work the same occupations and men and women that spend the exact same amounts of time raising children. Guess what? Men are still paid more. The 5% gap is the part that is "unexplained" i.e. the part that is potentially due to discrimination. You guys are double-dipping your statistics to make it seem like the 5% number comes *before* all of these other factors. Not true. The fact that you want to cling to denial isn't really helping your argument either.

 

[Shaazzyam]

you might be right. I can see how this issues present a genuine need for discourse and what not but like when I try to look into them its just full of personal politics and I'm just like "huh well thats that".

Also this is literally the first time someone told me I was privileged after I hear it on the internet and stuff.

It's kinda like how airline companies such as Virgin Australia and Quantas have discriminative policies which prohibits males from sitting next to unaccompanied minors on their airplanes. Cause you're prob a pedo. Check that male privilege, breh.

 

[Relaxedstate]

Unless you force men and women to choose the same occupations and spend the exact same amounts of time raising children a pay gap will exist for reasons that aren't discrimination.

I don't know how many more studies you need that I already haven't posted. Can we move on now, please.

I'm sure hiring discrimination makes up some percentage of it (along with minorities). But ultimately all evidence suggests that though young women have the talent for engineering and computer science, their interest tends to lie elsewhere. To say that these women remain helplessly in thrall to sexist stereotypes, and manipulated into life choices by forces beyond their control, is divorced from reality and demeaning. If a woman wants to be a teacher rather than a miner, or a veterinarian rather than a petroleum engineer, more power to her.

Its great if anyone capable of filling a role was given the opportunity to do so - but that's distinctly different from - all roles must be equally/proportionally represented by all demographics.

Women who have interests elsewhere (perhaps due to internalized sexism?) has little to do with the pay gap. Your studies are neat but in many academic labs that use statistical controls for the variables you mentioned; There is a gap between men and women (in teaching, engineering ect..). It isn't that much, but it compounds over time and is WAAAY worse for other minorities (Read: persons of color, trans* folk).

I think you raise a good point, and one that is discussed frequently during these debates. Why women do not chose certain fields over others is a more complicated issue that warrants it's own discussion. However women who do chose such fields are payed less (and are expected to do more). We still live in a world where people (and business owners) falsely believe in meritocracy, and going forth from that belief, they implicitly value men's work as greater (and worth more) than women's work (on average).

Bottom line: Women have it shittier than men in most facets of life.

What are you trying to accomplish by saying everything is just dandy right now and the problem is that women should just apply themselves more?

 

[GuamoKun]

It's kinda like how airline companies such as Virgin Australia and Quantas have discriminative policies which prohibits males from sitting next to unaccompanied minors on their airplanes. Cause you're prob a pedo. Check that male privilege, breh.

well I should fly that airline because I ain't about to sit next so someone who can't order alcohol

 

[Shaazzyam]

There are men and women that work the same occupations and men and women that spend the exact same amounts of time raising children. Guess what? Men are still paid more. The 5% gap is the part that is "unexplained" i.e. the part that is potentially due to discrimination. You guys are double-dipping your statistics to make it seem like the 5% number comes *before* all of these other factors. Not true. The fact that you want to cling to denial isn't really helping your argument either.

Women who have interests elsewhere (perhaps due to internalized sexism?) has little to do with the pay gap. Your studies are neat but in many academic labs that use statistical controls for the variables you mentioned; There is a gap between men and women (in teaching, engineering ect..). It isn't that much, but it compounds over time and is WAAAY worse for other minorities (Read: persons of color, trans* folk).

I think you raise a good point, and one that is discussed frequently during these debates. Why women do not chose certain fields over others is a more complicated issue that warrants it's own discussion. However women who do chose such fields are payed less (and are expected to do more). We still live in a world where people (and business owners) falsely believe in meritocracy, and going forth from that belief, they implicitly value men's work as greater (and worth more) than women's work (on average).

Bottom line: Women have it shittier than men in most facets of life.

What are you trying to accomplish by saying everything is just dandy right now and the problem is that women should just apply themselves more?

No, they account for that extra percent, too. Here, I'll post it for you, then:

Taken from the U.S. Justice Department,

"There are observable differences in the attributes of men and women that account for most of the wage gap. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent. These variables include:

• A greater percentage of women than men tend to work part-time. Part-time work tends to pay less than full-time work.
• A greater percentage of women than men tend to leave the labor force for child birth, child care and elder care. Some of the wage gap is explained by the percentage of women who were not in the labor force during previous years, the age of women, and the number of children in the home.
• Women, especially working mothers, tend to value “family friendly” workplace policies more than men. Some of the wage gap is explained by industry and occupation, particularly, the percentage of women who work in the industry and occupation.

Research also suggests that differences not incorporated into the model due to data limitations may account for part of the remaining gap. Specifically, CONSAD’s model and much of the literature, including the Bureau of Labor Statistics Highlights of Women’s Earnings, focus on wages rather than total compensation. Research indicates that women may value non-wage benefits more than men do, and as a result prefer to take a greater portion of their compensation in the form of health insurance and other fringe benefits. "

Bottom line: Women have it shittier than men in most facets of life.

What are you trying to accomplish by saying everything is just dandy right now and the problem is that women should just apply themselves more?

I just think that it's more accurate to say that a great deal of the wage discrepancy is better explained by structural impediments combined with fallback positions that usually result in women making career sacrifices than by intentional discrimination. Feminists of course won't see it that way. They'll blindly agree with the 23c stat in the OP and go out to tumblr or wherever else spreading misinformation so much that I finally see President Obama end up on tv with that spurious gender wage gap statistic in his State of the Union address. It's wrong and embarrassing. Excuse me for wanting honesty.

Bottom line: Both men and women are not treated equally in all facets of society.

 

[Shaazzyam]

well I should fly that airline because I ain't about to sit next so someone who can't order alcohol

I guess that's one way to look at being treated as a pedophile by society.

 

[Relaxedstate]

Snip.

Real question, Are you/do you identify as an MRA (Mens rights activist)? I think you post a lot of intelligent and thought out responses (especially regarding race), but you seem to have a lot of personal resistance/defensiveness when it comes to this subject.

Also, I do not like to source my self, but I have taken over 10 classes in statistics (including several multivariate statistics). I do not think you necessarily know how to interpret these studies. (You are simply posting the 'implications' from web sites). I'll put it this way: The 23c thing may fluctuate depending on how you run your analyses/interpret your results, however what doesn't change in any studies is the fact that women get paid less, and sometime much less when you include variables of systemic opression. None of this is intentional discrimination you see, so stop calling it as such.

The problem with the current world is that we have people, like you, saying that we live in this egalitarian wonderland. People adamantly believe this, but their behaviors suggest otherwise. Overt sexism and racism are rare in the US, however implicit discrimination is wildly rampent and damaging. The worst part about it is that people do not believe it exists because they (you*) cannot even recognize it in your self.

Edit: And I only cautiously bring up your defensiveness based on your red herring argument regarding the only two (obscure) airlines that have discriminatory practices against men (which probably will not last long at that). You seem to use this diversion to try and make it seem like men and women are 'equally treated unfairly', which is again not true. But you give this airline issue a lot of weight, whilst simultaneously trying to explain away a well documented economic disparity between men and women.

Edit: Edit: Sorry if I sound pretentious. I just care a lot about this stuff

 

[Shaazzyam]

Real question, Are you/do you identify as an MRA (Mens rights activist)? I think you post a lot of intelligent and thought out responses (especially regarding race), but you seem to have a lot of personal resistance/defensiveness when it comes to this subject.

Also, I do not like to source my self, but I have taken over 10 classes in statistics (including several multivariate statistics). I do not think you necessarily know how to interpret these studies. (You are simply posting the 'implications' from web sites). I'll put it this way: The 23c thing may fluctuate depending on how you run your analyses/interpret your results, however what doesn't change in any studies is the fact that women get paid less, and sometime much less when you include variables of systemic opression. None of this is intentional discrimination you see, so stop calling it as such.

The problem with the current world is that we have people, like you, saying that we live in this egalitarian wonderland. People adamantly believe this, but their behaviors suggest otherwise. Overt sexism and racism are rare in the US, however implicit discrimination is wildly rampent and damaging. The worst part about it is that people do not believe it exists because they (you*) cannot even recognize it in your self.

Edit: And I only cautiously bring up your defensiveness based on your red herring argument regarding the only two (obscure) airlines that have discriminatory practices against men (which probably will not last long at that). You seem to use this diversion to try and make it seem like men and women are 'equally treated unfairly', which is again not true. But you give this airline issue a lot of weight, whilst simultaneously trying to explain away a well document economic disparity between men and women.

Edit: Edit: Sorry if I sound pretentious. I just care a lot about this stuff

Why do I have to be a mra to point out bloated statistics to overzealous feminists? Or that somehow, even if I was, implying that MRA = anti-feminism? As if fighting for men's rights means you to seek to undo feminism at every turn. Focus on the arguments being made instead of trying to character assassinate.

Forgive me for trusting statistics and facts from the U.S Department of Justice over what I'm sure will be some quote by some choice feminist literature from the 70s to backup your claims. Look, women do make less than men. Yes. The wage gap, controlling for other factors, is an important factor to understand the mechanisms that results in this fact and to make sure that we don't attribute the wage gap to, say, discrimination. You'd rather ignore these factors and jump to sexism. Honestly, I'm surprised by the ignorance. I thought it was known that women make roughly equal money for equal work, it is the types of work they traditionally enter that have low pay.


If you've seen my posts about race then you already know that this portrait you paint of me couldn't be further from the truth.

No, again, you're putting words in my mouth. Never did I equate or imply the entire that this single act of blatant discrimination against males is much bigger than the larger and more prevalent sexual, religious, race and female discrimination.

Really, I feel like we'll just have to agree to disagree. You're making up all these phantom arguments combined with all the hit and run posts from others... it's not conducive for a healthy discussion.

 

[bdizzle2700]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-society-sexist-against-men-and-how-we-can-fix-it/