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Who is the biggest upplayer for each character?

coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
Rally Jackson said:
He's an (unproven) great player but to this community he's a walking joke because he disagrees with a proven great player and I don't think that's cool. And when I see Murk taking the same stance and getting shitted on for it too even though he's a better Nightwing than any of those I've played who HAVE placed, it just doesn't sit well. At least you're pretty respectful about it, though.
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There's nothing I hate more than false narratives. Nobody thinks Ra is a joke because he disagrees with 16 Bit. We think he's a joke because he says stupid shit (can you actually deny that?). Hell, just in this thread, he just said that a 3 time EVO top 8 placer "is lacking skill." Ra Helios is a joke on the forums because he's a joke on the forums. This has nothing to do with his playing skills (he's really good from what I've seen). Read his arguments, tell me they don't sound like written by a 9 year old. It has nothing to do with his opinion on the match-up numbers either, but how he presents his arguments and how basic they are. We're talking about the same guy whose advice was "use low whip better, use Jb2 better, punish Bane when he dashes in patterns (because a good Bane player will always do that, apparently)." Don't you see why this would be construed as stupid?

As far as Murk, It's not that he's agreeing with Helios, it's that he's yet to say anything about the Catwoman-Bane match-up itself. All he's saying is BioHazard disagrees because he played Ra Helios online and because Lex allegedly beats Catwoman worse than Bane. Again, if you don't see what's wrong with that, that's your problem.
 
Johnny Based Cage

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
coolwhip said:
There's nothing I hate more than false narratives. Nobody thinks Ra is a joke because he disagrees with 16 Bit. We think he's a joke because he says stupid shit (can you actually deny that?). Hell, just in this thread, he just said that a 3 time EVO top 8 placer "is lacking skill." Ra Helios is a joke on the forums because he's a joke on the forums. This has nothing to do with his playing skills (he's really good from what I've seen). Read his arguments, tell me they don't sound like written by a 9 year old. It has nothing to do with his opinion on the match-up numbers either, but how he presents his arguments and how basic they are. We're talking about the same guy whose advice was "use low whip better, use Jb2 better, punish Bane when he dashes in patterns (because a good Bane player will always do that, apparently)." Don't you see why this would be construed as stupid?

As far as Murk, It's not that he's agreeing with Helios, it's that he's yet to say anything about the Catwoman-Bane match-up itself. All he's saying is BioHazard disagrees because he played Ra Helios online and because Lex allegedly beats Catwoman worse than Bane. Again, if you don't see what's wrong with that, that's your problem.
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You hate false narratives yet you utterly ignored the gameplay discussion I'm trying to have surrounding Ra Helios' claims about using some of these tools. So far, all I've been told about Bane beating Catwoman's j2 is that he can do a 32 frame start-up move that's full combo punishable in any number of scenarios on reaction to it. I've also dug up the old Cat Evade chart and asked if it still applies, because according to it, every single special he has can be evaded and full combo punished.

Ra might not be the most articulate fellow on the website but at least he's trying to bring up points and all he's being told in response is that they're retarded without any rhyme or reason given that actually, legitimately makes sense from a gameplay standpoint. Maybe using low-whip and jb2 better ARE legitimate claims? I've yet to see anyone give a good reason why they aren't.

Nobody is saying Bane loses to Catwoman's footsies; everyone agrees he wins the matchup primarily because he does have an easier time in that department. But Ra is trying to provide what he believes are legitimate counter-strategies and being told complete bullshit in return about how they just don't work (you just don't know!) or how nobody would listen to him over a 3x Evo medalist.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
Rally Jackson said:
You hate false narratives yet you utterly ignored the gameplay discussion I'm trying to have surrounding Ra Helios' claims about using some of these tools. So far, all I've been told about Bane beating Catwoman's j2 is that he can do a 32 frame start-up move that's full combo punishable in any number of scenarios on reaction to it. I've also dug up the old Cat Evade chart and asked if it still applies, because according to it, every single special he has can be evaded and full combo punished.

Ra might not be the most articulate fellow on the website but at least he's trying to bring up points and all he's being told in response is that they're retarded without any rhyme or reason given that actually, legitimately makes sense from a gameplay standpoint. Maybe using low-whip and jb2 better ARE legitimate claims? I've yet to see anyone give a good reason why they aren't.

Nobody is saying Bane loses to Catwoman's footsies; everyone agrees he wins the matchup primarily because he does have an easier time in that department. But Ra is trying to provide what he believes are legitimate counter-strategies and being told complete bullshit in return about how they just don't work (you just don't know!) or how nobody would listen to him over a 3x Evo medalist.
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Dude, 16 Bit just wrote a dissertation about the match-up in this very thread (or is it the other one? I'm lost). What more do you want? He just spent posts explaining these points to YOU. Then you still gloss over that and say "all people are doing is call Ra's points retarded." I mean, what?
 
Johnny Based Cage

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
Fromundaman said:
Cat evade every special... wonder why no one thought of this? I'm going to apply this to my character too. After all Joker has both a high and a low parry, so if I can parry every attack thrown my way, every matchup should become 10-0 in my favor.

This plan is foolproof.
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I don't even know why I'm going to dignify such garbage with a response but she doesn't have to evade every single special he throws out to win. She can evade the Barge Bane is allegedly using to counter her jb2 when she lands. She can evade a command grab in footsies on a read. She can evade a tic throw off blocking a normal. It's not foolproof but it's an option she has that can turn the match in her favor if utilized EVER as opposed to NEVER.

And maybe you're right and you should try to parry more instead of just spamming d2 - acid as your Bane counter of choice.
 
Johnny Based Cage

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
coolwhip said:
Dude, 16 Bit just wrote a dissertation about the match-up in this very thread (or is it the other one? I'm lost). What more do you want? He just spent posts explaining these points to YOU. Then you still gloss over that and say "all people are doing is call Ra's points retarded." I mean, what?
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His option for beating jb2 is a move that has to be done on read, not reaction, to beat it and is full combo punishable on whiff, evade or mbb3 if it doesn't catch said JUMPBACK with 32 START UP FRAMES. Am I the only one calling bullshit on this?

I didn't gloss over his point; I addressed it directly. You glossed over mine.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
Rally Jackson said:
His option for beating jb2 is a move that has to be done on read, not reaction, to beat it and is full combo punishable on whiff, evade or mbb3 if it doesn't catch said JUMPBACK with 32 START UP FRAMES. Am I the only one calling bullshit on this?

I didn't gloss over his point; I addressed it directly. You glossed over mine.
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Yes, exactly. Pretty much all of Ra's advice surround around making the right read 100% of the time. YOU need to call bullshit on THAT. Also, the guy called a top 8 EVO placer as lacking skill. Forgive me for calling him an idiot. Actually don't, because he is.
 
Johnny Based Cage

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
coolwhip said:
Yes, exactly. Pretty much all of Ra's advice surround around making the right read 100% of the time. YOU need to call bullshit on THAT. Also, the guy called a top 8 EVO placer as lacking skill. Forgive me for calling him an idiot. Actually don't, because he is.
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So once again instead of addressing the fact that he may have had a point about using jb2 more because the lone suggested counter to that would only work if the Catwoman player's stick was stuck in the up-back position, we're blowing him up as a person and some of the other points he made. I don't need to call bullshit on Ra when everyone else seems to be doing a fine job at it; I'm calling bullshit on everyone dismissing the points he made that might have actually had some validity to them. Is low whip reactable and can Bane punish it if blocked from max range? I honestly don't even know but if not, he might have a fucking point about using low whip more too.

This shit always gets so fucking petty and personal for no reason. When it begins as "use this and this more" and the only response is "no" without any really solid reason why those options AREN'T good in the matchup, it shouldn't progress to name-calling and dick-measuring. I have the utmost respect for people like Bit and Pig as players and contributors to the scene but I also respect the criticisms and suggestions of another good player when the only counter-arguments to said criticisms and suggestions seem to revolve around his integrity and grasp of the English language.

And I respect Bit even more for trying to engage in a gameplay discussion with someone as irrelevant as myself but I just disagree with a couple of the points he made. That's all. Just trying to clarify which side of the argument is correct and keep this on a gameplay level rather than a personal one. Seems real soft to me when people get so butthurt over matchup discussions.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
Rally Jackson said:
So once again instead of addressing the fact that he may have had a point about using jb2 more because the lone suggested counter to that would only work if the Catwoman player's stick was stuck in the up-back position,
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Say it's a valid point, that's what, 1 out of a million? You can't just disregard his entire history. I'm sorry but he brought this on himself. When everybody's first impression of you is reading posts and posts arguing why online > offline, then yeah, we'll all think you're an idiot. It doesn't help that his subsequent postings weren't much better.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
Rally Jackson said:
Except long before Dizzy started doing work against 16 Bit, 16 Bit and co. were calling Foxy a fucking fool for even suggesting Cage stood a chance.

Awful attempt at a blow-up.
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Yeah, and everybody was wrong about that. Foxy was right. However, when was Foxy proven right? When we finally had two dedicated mains playing the match-up extensively offline, and played each other in tournament, and the result was always the same.

Now, Ra Helios' opinion on Bane-Catwoman will be proven right once two dedicated mains also run that match-up offline a thousand times. Too bad it hasn't happened yet...Oh wait.

So yeah, the above is an awful analogy, and it totally negates your own argument.

PS: I love Foxy but he was wrong on quite a few match-ups too.
 
ReD WolF

ReD WolF

Lord of the Drip
Catwoman vs. Bane is literally one of the most fleshed out matchups played at a high level offline. Why are people just ignoring that? Week after week you can see with your own eyes how badly she gets out footsied. Not to mention, Bit has essentially written a book on this matchup numerous times. The fact that people are skeptical of 16 bit's opinion and chalk it up to "upplaying" is reason why things like the "skype Illuminati" exist. The top players aren't isolating themselves to be hollywood (most of the time). They are doing it because they are tired of hearing delusional bullshit everyday on the forums. All Banes players aren't created equal and all catwoman players aren't created equal.
 
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16 Bit

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
Rally Jackson said:
So you're telling me that I can Barge on reaction to your jump back and it will catch you out of that same jump? Jb2, empty jump, whatever? Reactionary Barge will beat it?

Also, does this evade chart still apply?

Bane
Specials
  • Body press(L)- Full combo punishable
  • Raging charge(H)- Full combo punishable
  • Double Punch(H)- Full combo punishable
  • Venom uppercut(H)- Full combo punishable
Just asking because I don't ever really see footsies command grabs baited and punished with it. Among many other things.

And MIT, nobody is saying Bane doesn't out-footsies Catwoman. I'm just playing devil's advocate for Ra Helios' one claim that well-timed jb2's do a lot to keep him in check because it hasn't really been countered yet, unless you count being told that a move with 32 frames of start-up that's full combo punishable on whiff, evade, or mbb3 is beating a jump back on reaction.
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No, barge is a guess. I know what you're thinking. It's slow, you can blow it up, so how can it be good. The beauty of it is that it covers everything. It beats her jumping, back dashing and even doing moves. It beats the normals you're saying out range him. It beats her trying to run away. The only thing she can do about it is sit there and look for it. If she is sitting there looking for it she is left playing the neutral game with Bane, which is very difficult. That's why I am saying him approaching her isn't the same. If he wants to approach he can just walk up and he has a conditioning tool that covers almost anything she can do and an armored grab to open her up that has the same reach as her best normal. Do you understand how frustrating it is to get made fun of for getting hit by barges while also told to just out range him with her normals or jump back more?



You cannot evade Raging Charge at all. You used to be able to but it was disabled a long time ago before EVO 2013.

When she evades something she still has the finish the recovery of it before she can do a move(except trait, she can cancel into that. That's how she is able to punish DD barge). So she can't just evade and then do a d+1~claws. If she evades a move super early, like she begins the evade before he even starts up, she might be able to do d+1~claws. The majority of the time there's no chance, you can't even do trait which is a cancel. So Evade doesn't really cover any extra options.
 
16 Bit

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
Rally Jackson said:
Is low whip reactable and can Bane punish it if blocked from max range? I honestly don't even know but if not, he might have a fucking point about using low whip more too.
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Low Whip is reactable if you're looking for it. When you're in those scenarios where you're turtling her and she has few options you can focus on it and react. He can punish it with dash up 1,1,3. That's actually pretty tough though, it's more likely he will get a mixup.

Low Whip is...ok. It's her main tool to stop people from holding back but it's losing to like everything. This is another move that loses to barge as well. This is why it's frustrating that you're acting like barge being his answer for jump back is so silly and bullshit. The move beats almost everything she can do. You don't even need to make a true "read" that I'm going to jump. You do it and it beats everything.

This also shows the difference in their approach. When Bane is turtling and she needs to get in she has to regulate with low whip. When she is turtling he can open her up with grab.
 
Johnny Based Cage

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
Good posts, Bit. I for one appreciate you taking the time to explain your side (gameplay-wise) in-depth. Wasn't trying to act like it was silly and bullshit so much as understand where you were coming from, as to me it seemed that a Barge baited by jump backs could be mbb3'ed at least or something upon landing. Legitimately wasn't sure at all if Cat Evade was an option or not still either so I also appreciate the write-up on that.

I don't have anything to add; like I said I was never really taking on Ra Helios' argument about the match-up so much as hoping someone would address his criticisms directly rather than just write them off because of who he is compared to you or what prior lunacy he's been known to spew. In spite of all the cattiness (no pun) across the board here, you've remained pretty noble thoughout your posts though. Much respect to you and I look forward to seeing if Ra Helios learns exactly what you're talking about when he plays Max or not.
 
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