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its been 17 months. lets solidify a top 5

YOMI MITYEAP

YOMI MITYEAP

Master
Youphemism said:
THANK YOU. People on this site take potential damage over guaranteed damage, how is that logical? Hell yeah her vortex is good, I'm not going to say something stupid like it sucks, but I'd take 1 guaranteed 60% from a 50/50 over however many reps of just under 30% from a 50/50 that aren't even guaranteed and that I could possibly even be punished for trying to continue.

Aaaaaaaaaand credibility gone... you better have some damn good reasoning for that tier list hahaha

You are a fucking god.

#7?! I don't think any of us have said she's lower than top 5 :confused:
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potential damage I will take over guaranteed. How is it not logical? I dnt think u are understanding how good vortexes are and her only options arent just the b2 and b1. I mean I could look up sf2 vega, sf4 akuma, I would even same zero from maevel 3 because of his incoming mixup game once he kills a character. Vortex over raw damage (especially when the vortex is safe for the most part and can be continued). Just raw damage is not going to beat out a vortex.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
MITDJT said:
potential damage I will take over guaranteed. How is it not logical? I dnt think u are understanding how good vortexes are and her only options arent just the b2 and b1. I mean I could look up sf2 vega, sf4 akuma, I would even same zero from maevel 3 because of his incoming mixup game once he kills a character. Vortex over raw damage (especially when the vortex is safe for the most part and can be continued). Just raw damage is not going to beat out a vortex.
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You would take damage that isn't guaranteed over damage that is? I know how good the idea of the vortex is in general, but her damage output from it comes out in about 30%s if you want to loop it. Other characters vortexes in other games are different, they might get more damage output from each rep for example. That's my point, a third of the cast can punish the overhead option so it's not entirely safe, and just because it can be continued doesn't mean it will. Raw damage could beat out a vortex considering the guaranteed damage output it brings, and seeing as how Flash gets 60% guaranteed compared to BG's 30%ish guarantee I don't see how that's not an advantage. Flash also doesn't just get raw damage though he can get a setup from it back into his 50/50(s) and kill. Batgirl needs 3 or 4 reps to kill, Flash needs 2. Also Flash's 50/50 options are completely safe, only Batgirl's low option is completely safe. See why I think that? But of course by TYM logic this is downplaying so I guess other people are right and I'm wrong.
 
YOMI MITYEAP

YOMI MITYEAP

Master
@Youphemism flash must have meter tho, batgirl doesn't need it to drain your life. This isnt a tym logic thing, she has more tools to use than him. Where are people getting flash being better than her?
 
TKB

TKB

Warrior
Another overlooked point is batgirl has more tools overall... On top of her potential damage she also has a pretty strong zoning game AND a teleport... You can't even get near an interactible without fear of being put back into vortex.
 
THTB

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Potential damage is one thing, if the overall damage in the game was as low as BG's damage she gets when trying to keep vortex going generally is.

But then you have characters who get high guaranteed damage anywhere on the screen, into potential extra damage...and as a result can end rounds on two simple mistakes. Which is what Flash does.

But that doesn't even matter if a character has better tools in general. Which is why BG is ranked higher anyway.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
MITDJT said:
@Youphemism flash must have meter tho, batgirl doesn't need it to drain your life. This isnt a tym logic thing, she has more tools to use than him. Where are people getting flash being better than her?
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@MylesWright_ said:
You are ignoring the fact that Flash at least needs trait to do his 60% and needs meter for combos. Flash is good but he isn't quite as good as meterless vortex loops for days
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Well yeah I know he needs meter and trait, but without trait he can still do decent damage. Batgirl also needs meter if her vortex is going to evolve from just the b1/b2 mixup like you said @MITDJT. Flash also has standing resets, 50/50s, OTGs, he can also avoid interactables with speed dodge, good whiff punishing tools and better dashes. And these "meterless loops" aren't guaranteed, one block and you're out.
 
YOMI MITYEAP

YOMI MITYEAP

Master
Youphemism said:
Well yeah I know he needs meter and trait, but without trait he can still do decent damage. Batgirl also needs meter if her vortex is going to evolve from just the b1/b2 mixup like you said @MITDJT. Flash also has standing resets, 50/50s, OTGs, he can also avoid interactables with speed dodge, good whiff punishing tools and better dashes. And these "meterless loops" aren't guaranteed, one block and you're out.
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no loop is guaranteed, but if it makes the opponent guess, that is why it would be very dangerous and viable. Scorpion who wasnt a good character in mk9, out classed the lower tiers because he possessed a meterless vortex which could lead to lots of damage (and his wasnt safe at all lol)
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
EMPEROR_THEO said:
This thread caused a brilliant domino effect, you got...

Zyphox and Honeybee being outraged on one end

ForeverKing downplaying Batman on the other end

WoundCowboy downplaying Sinestro on the other end

Shujinkydink randomly thinking Doomsday is top 5 on one end

Saltface randomly prop fishing on another end

16Bit un-randomly propfishing after making the Flash community mad

M2Dave laying the Fool Hammer down on some donwplayers on another end

So much entertainment to choose from. The TYM version of an all-you-can-eat buffet.

P.s. I love you all.
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This thread doesn't need you. You're retired.































...but are somehow winning majors through retirement.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
Youphemism said:
Well yeah I know he needs meter and trait, but without trait he can still do decent damage. Batgirl also needs meter if her vortex is going to evolve from just the b1/b2 mixup like you said @MITDJT. Flash also has standing resets, 50/50s, OTGs, he can also avoid interactables with speed dodge, good whiff punishing tools and better dashes. And these "meterless loops" aren't guaranteed, one block and you're out.
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But when assessing who is the better character, it's not just about whose vortex is better, who does better guaranteed damage, and who has better set-ups (even if they have somewhat comparable tools in that regard). Batgirl has some of the best interactable control in the game which is huge (as in she can blow you the hell up for going for them) and a very good anti zoning tool (again both leading to huge damage, which is a far greater reward than Flash being able to shake through projectiles or interactables). I do think Flash could be top 5, though DEFINITELY not better than Batgirl.
 
rev0lver

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
DreadKnight1 said:
According to match up numbers top 5 are(in order):mmh,am,zod,flash,bane.

Then comes(in order):sinestro,Bg and ww.
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The point of the debate is that we don't know the matchup numbers though. We don't have anything solidified yet, which is why it's hard to make objective cases here. If we knew for sure Bane had no bad matchups and Flash has 5, or the other way around, it would be a lot easier.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
MITDJT said:
no loop is guaranteed, but if it makes the opponent guess, that is why it would be very dangerous and viable. Scorpion who wasnt a good character in mk9, out classed the lower tiers because he possessed a meterless vortex which could lead to lots of damage (and his wasnt safe at all lol)
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I'm not denying its danger and viability, but overhead is still unsafe and it's still negative so if you block it the opponent pretty much gets to do what they want. Batgirl's vortex is the opposite of MK9 Scorpion's- hers leads to less damaging loops but safer options.
coolwhip said:
But when assessing who is the better character, it's not just about whose vortex is better, who does better guaranteed damage, and who has better set-ups. Batgirl has some of the best interactable control in the game which is huge (as in she can blow you the hell up for going for them) and a very good anti zoning tool (again both leading to huge damage, which is a far greater reward than Flash being able to shake through projectiles or interactables). I do think Flash could be top 5, though DEFINITELY not better than Batgirl.
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Which "very good anti-zoning tool" are you talking about? Flash can shake the interactable then punish I'm pretty sure, or at least get pressure (which is better than Batgirls pressure). You say DEFINITELY as if Flash has no tools that can even remotely compare to Batgirls...
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
Youphemism said:
I'm not denying its danger and viability, but overhead is still unsafe and it's still negative so if you block it the opponent pretty much gets to do what they want. Batgirl's vortex is the opposite of MK9 Scorpion's- hers leads to less damaging loops but safer options.

Which "very good anti-zoning tool" are you talking about? Flash can shake the interactable then punish I'm pretty sure, or at least get pressure (which is better than Batgirls pressure). You say DEFINITELY as if Flash has no tools that can even remotely compare to Batgirls...
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If you're throwing interactables at Flash close enough and predictable enough to where he can shake and punish, that's on you.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
So Batgirl's struggles are vague statements pertaining to the neutral game and not requiring meter for her vortex (!?). Yup, that struggle, it is real.

EDIT: Apparently, her struggles are due to her vortex needing meter in the future to evolve past where it is now.

The struggle is even realer now.
 
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YOMI MITYEAP

YOMI MITYEAP

Master
Youphemism said:
I'm not denying its danger and viability, but overhead is still unsafe and it's still negative so if you block it the opponent pretty much gets to do what they want. Batgirl's vortex is the opposite of MK9 Scorpion's- hers leads to less damaging loops but safer options.

Which "very good anti-zoning tool" are you talking about? Flash can shake the interactable then punish I'm pretty sure, or at least get pressure (which is better than Batgirls pressure). You say DEFINITELY as if Flash has no tools that can even remotely compare to Batgirls...
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No her vortex does around that same damage as scorpion's in mk9, his typical vortex was in the mid 20s or low30s (same as batgirl for the most part). Also hers has way more options because this game is back to block, hers isn't the opposite, it is just superior.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
MITDJT said:
No her vortex does around that same damage as scorpion's in mk9, his typical vortex was in the mid 20s or low30s (same as batgirl for the most part). Also hers has way more options because this game is back to block, hers isn't the opposite, it is just superior.
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LOL is it even an argument is to who has the better vortex, MK9 Scorp or Batgirl? Scorpion's guaranteed damage before the vortex is anywhere from 28 to 32% (rough estimate) But, if he guesses wrong against characters like Smoke, Cyrax or even Kitana, he's dead.
 
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