MK9 vs other fighters depth.

[WhooFlungPoo]

Posting on another message board a guy is clearly a MvC and AE fan and doesn't play MK9 like it's suppose to be played. Seems to play on a very basic level. One thing he tried to say was this....





"You serious?

Lets look at the "depth" of MK9:

- Everybody has the same amount of health
- Everybody has the same jump properties
- Everybody has roughly the same size/speed
- Everybody has a projectile and/or a "thrusting attack"/teleport
- There are no grapplers
- There are no cross-ups
- Mix-ups are on an extremely basic level
- The dial-a-combo system is horrendous and completely impracticable
- Meter is largely irrelevant aside from combo breakers and OP X-Ray attacks
- There are no defensive mechanics (aside from breakers)
- There is no wake-up game
- etc...

Fire up SFIV and tell me how Zangief, Dhalsim, C.Viper, Balrog, and M.Bison play.

Fire up Blazblue and tell me how Tager, Taokaka, Hakumen, Arakune, and Bang play.

Fire up Marvel and tell me how Dormammu, Sentinel, Shuma-Gorath, Phoenix, and MODOK play.

...that's depth within a roster."



Now i've made my points about how ignorant that sounds to him, but I would like to hear from a number of you on the response to that one. Not only in response to that, but how do you guys think MK9 compares in depth to other fighters out there. Cross up game, wake up, mix ups, meter, etc..


It's all here http://boards.ign.com/mortal_kombat/b6027/204908260/r204957051/?statusId=PostReplySuccess

 

[Euphoric]

Sounds like some kid that doesn't actually play competitively in either AE, MvC3, and MK9, but just goes to streams and vists SRK and tries to follow what everyone else says.

 

[eskuAdradit0]

Sounds like some kid that doesn't actually play competitively in either AE, MvC3, and MK9, but just goes to streams and vists SRK and tries to follow what everyone else says.

/thread.

 

[JrK]

I think MK is a MUCH easier game to start. (In relations to ssf4, idk about mvc). Learning ssf4 is quite challenging at first in comparison. Anyone can pick up MK9, spend 30 minutes in the lab, and come out with huge combos. It's certainly not that easy in sf.

However it doesn't always make the game more fun. I love them both but if I had to pick one it would be MK9 hands down.

 

[Fenro]

OP

OP clearly knows nothing about mortalkombat.

 

[Tim Static]

OP clearly knows nothing about mortalkombat.

If you dont like the thread, then dont post in it.

 

[Metalic]

Seems like he's never actually tried to give it a chance, and would rather follow the "it sucks" fad.

- Meter is largely irrelevant aside from combo breakers and OP X-Ray attacks

METER IS LRAGELY IRRELEVANT? REALLY? Almost everyone agrees your meter is bigger than your life in this game. And useless aside from BREAKERS? I dunno about you, but I consider breakers a pretty big use. I'm not even sure what to say about thinking Xray is OP if you've ever even played the game for over an hour, especially while SF itself has Ultras and MVC has Xfactor. MK9 is the first mainstream game in a while where having a life lead means having a big advantage. Meter in this game is flawless and I hope it carries over to all future MK's.

There is no wake-up game

Assuming I'm understanding this right...If there was no wake-up game, why is it seen as an advantage when you can keep an opponent standing after a combo? A knockdown doesn't mean the same thing in MK9 as it does in SF. MK doesn't give you free offense after a knockdown, it gives you the OPTION to do so - pick the wrong option and you get nailed by a wake-up attack. Guess right and you are rewarded. MK's all about the 50/50s, everyone knows this.

There are no defensive mechanics (aside from breakers)

I was assuming Shangs upskulls, Sektors upmissles, Reptile having THREE projectiles with varying speeds, Sub-Zero's ice clone (Can be used both ways, you really can't use it wrong.), etc. While there may be no defensive "mechanic" (What does he even mean?), most of the projectiles in this game can be used defensively. More so ones like Shangs and Sektors that can be used as a "wall" of sorts.

While health and jump properties are true, it doesn't heavily change the "depth" to me. MK's never had it, and likely never will. If you gave someone like Jax more HP, would it really change that much? Speaking of Jax, isn't he classified as a "grappler"? I know they really aren't in MK, but him and Sheeva are the closest examples. On the subject of speed, while jab speeds aren't MASSIVELY different, there are differences in their properties (Mileenas D4 compared to, say, Cages. Smokes sweep compared to everyones, Quans uppercut compared to Nobs, etc.) and usually 2-3 frame differences - a lot more than it sounds. Dash speeds vary for sure, for an extreme compare Sektor to Reptile.

I mean shit, was this guy complaining about all of this when UMK3 was around? Most of these are staples in the MK franchise. I respect everyones opinion but these points are hardly valid ones. While I do love this game, it could use some things to make it "deeper", for sure, but making it play exactly like SF isn't the answer, and it certainly doesn't lack depth as it is right now.

 

[King]

- Everybody has the same amount of health
- Everybody has the same jump properties
- Everybody has roughly the same size/speed
- Everybody has a projectile and/or a "thrusting attack"/teleport
- There are no grapplers
- There are no cross-ups
- Mix-ups are on an extremely basic level
- The dial-a-combo system is horrendous and completely impracticable
- Meter is largely irrelevant aside from combo breakers and OP X-Ray attacks
- There are no defensive mechanics (aside from breakers)
- There is no wake-up game
- etc...

Fire up SFIV and tell me how Zangief, Dhalsim, C.Viper, Balrog, and M.Bison play.

Fire up Blazblue and tell me how Tager, Taokaka, Hakumen, Arakune, and Bang play.

Fire up Marvel and tell me how Dormammu, Sentinel, Shuma-Gorath, Phoenix, and MODOK play.

...that's depth within a roster."

1) If we had differing life values, then that would change the rate of how fast someone were to gain meter from block damage. So a character with higher health will automatically be giving more meter to the other person just from block damage. A person with lower life would be much more susceptible to dying from chip damage than a person with higher health. Since meter is so important in this game, having differing life values could, from the get-go, be a HUGE game changer. Having an extra 50 life in Street Fighter doesn't really do much to you anyway. Having the same health eliminates the need to worry about things like this and just focuses on gameplay mechanics.

2) Wrong. Some characters have ways of changing their jump arc via dive kick and others can teleport in the air.

3) Wrong again. Sheeva's got a bigger hitbox than most characters and is much slower than most characters. Characters like Cyber Sub have an awesome dash while Reptile has a horrible dash (I'm talking about the or dash not the elbow dash.)

4) That's such a generalizing statement. That's like me saying everyone in street fighter has a fireball and/or a zoning attack/advancing move.

5) Sheeva and Jax are considered grapplers.

6) Here's the deal. Some characters in Street Fighter abuse the living hell out of crossups - it's their entire gameplan. Case in point: C. Viper. Without her stupid ambiguous flame kick crossups, she's much less of a threat. In MK, you don't have to worry about cross-ups. You have to worry about being chipped out with normals. It's not like in Street Fighter where you can block normals all day without worrying about your life bar being whittled down.

7) Actually no, they aren't. Ever play a Scorpion and have to deal with his 50/50s? He can go high, low, throw, safe pressure, crossover into any of the previous options. That's a pretty sick set of options there. Ever play against a Liu Kang/Johnny Cage/Kung Lao? Same deal.

8) The same system exists in MvC3. Anything you say about the system in MK will also apply to MvC3. Case closed.

9) That's like me saying meter is largely irrelevant in Street Fighter except for focus dash cancels and OP supers.

10) Let's see. We have those projectiles you were complaining about earlier, teleports, moves like Smoke's Smoke Away, and...blocking.

11) Please say that to Kung Lao/Raiden/Nightwolf/Kitana/Kabal/Smoke.

12) etc...



All I have to say about this guy is that he's a misinformed moron who should really get his head out of Capcom's ass.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Lets look at the "depth" of MK9:


- Everybody has the same amount of health - Because there are no Akuma/Seths etc, no character other than Cyrax does too much damage (and thats because of a glitch) so why should health be taken into consideration?

- Everybody has the same jump properties - True but not everybodys air to air game has the same goals. Compare Sektors air to air to Cages.

- Everybody has roughly the same size/speed - Looks at Reptile, then looks at Sheeva, then looks at Mileena/Sonya. Then I looked at Sektor/Cages dash speed compared to Scorpion/Sub/Ermac etc...

- Everybody has a projectile and/or a "thrusting attack"/teleport - Each with their own specific properties. Its not just half the cast shooting the same boring ass Hadouken

- There are no grapplers

- There are no cross-ups - So whats the jip for? And Sonyas Divekick

- Mix-ups are on an extremely basic level - Mix ups come in so many forms that this statement is just stupid, a mixup can be as simple as a dash backwards.

- The dial-a-combo system is horrendous and completely impracticable - Horrendous? Would he say the same for tekken cause its basically the same?

- Meter is largely irrelevant aside from combo breakers and OP X-Ray attacks - Look at just a few uses for meter: More damage, pressure(Sektor), armour for escape(Kenshi), armour for reversals(Kabal), invincibility, draining your opponents meter, even psychological warfare, nobody will jump into KL when he has xray and nobody will do an obvious attack when cage does. Its gonna be useful for catching people offguard too, look at cyrax Ex Saw/Ragdoll.

- There are no defensive mechanics (aside from breakers) - pokes, armour, invincible moves, jump.... Block button?!

- There is no wake-up game - I LOLD

- etc...

 

[Massicus]

He''s wrong.
Everyone knows that SSF4 AE is unbalanced and that the finals often have crazy characters in them (Fei long/Viper/Twins/Sagat with fireballs)
Some players/pro's even admit that it's boring (I mean Sabin who didn't want to play his top16 SSFAE match but wanted to commentate on Crazy dominican and Jr )
What it comes down to is that EVO on the capcom side was kinda ruined because of the unbalanced games (in my opinion)
Everyone knows that MvC3 is a joke, I mean a guy who used 1 character to win EVO (And admit it everytime they snapped in Phoenix and killed her Viscant basicly gave up)

Don't waste your time on convincing internet-kiddies that MK9 has all of these things.
I mean a Mileena making it to finals, Rain winning tourney's, Cyrax's and Raiden's having a harder time at these tournaments say enough.

 

[cHAncEman1292]

This guy must have not played the game...


Essentially MK9 isn't weighed down with in-depth mechanics. Its up to players to mount a defense using their characters attributes as well as invent their own mind games. The learning curve on MK9 is less steep then other fighting games but its competitive none the less! If there's anything I've learned while playing MK9 is that no matter what the match-up is the match-up is determined by player skill. XRay is not OP...I hardly see skilled players waste their meter on it.

No fighter diversity? Lies.

Grapplers: Jax & Sheeva.

Dhalsim: Kenshi & Sektor

C Viper: Skarlet & Kitana

I won't go on.

 

[Past]

1) If we had differing life values, then that would change the rate of how fast someone were to gain meter from block damage. So a character with higher health will automatically be giving more meter to the other person just from block damage. A person with lower life would be much more susceptible to dying from chip damage than a person with higher health. Since meter is so important in this game, having differing life values could, from the get-go, be a HUGE game changer. Having an extra 50 life in Street Fighter doesn't really do much to you anyway. Having the same health eliminates the need to worry about things like this and just focuses on gameplay mechanics.

2) Wrong. Some characters have ways of changing their jump arc via dive kick and others can teleport in the air.

3) Wrong again. Sheeva's got a bigger hitbox than most characters and is much slower than most characters. Characters like Cyber Sub have an awesome dash while Reptile has a horrible dash (I'm talking about the or dash not the elbow dash.)

4) That's such a generalizing statement. That's like me saying everyone in street fighter has a fireball and/or a zoning attack/advancing move.

5) Sheeva and Jax are considered grapplers.

6) Here's the deal. Some characters in Street Fighter abuse the living hell out of crossups - it's their entire gameplan. Case in point: C. Viper. Without her stupid ambiguous flame kick crossups, she's much less of a threat. In MK, you don't have to worry about cross-ups. You have to worry about being chipped out with normals. It's not like in Street Fighter where you can block normals all day without worrying about your life bar being whittled down.

7) Actually no, they aren't. Ever play a Scorpion and have to deal with his 50/50s? He can go high, low, throw, safe pressure, crossover into any of the previous options. That's a pretty sick set of options there. Ever play against a Liu Kang/Johnny Cage/Kung Lao? Same deal.

8) The same system exists in MvC3. Anything you say about the system in MK will also apply to MvC3. Case closed.

9) That's like me saying meter is largely irrelevant in Street Fighter except for focus dash cancels and OP supers.

10) Let's see. We have those projectiles you were complaining about earlier, teleports, moves like Smoke's Smoke Away, and...blocking.

11) Please say that to Kung Lao/Raiden/Nightwolf/Kitana/Kabal/Smoke.

12) etc...



All I have to say about this guy is that he's a misinformed moron who should really get his head out of Capcom's ass.

What you said about 1 is wrong by the way. Block damage is not related to health. This is a proper criticism of MK.

 

[King]

What you said about 1. is wrong by the way. Block damage is not related to health. This is a proper criticism of MK.

If you had more health, then you would be giving more meter for your opponent simply because you have more health to be chipped away. I know that chip damage is universally 2%.

 

[WhooFlungPoo]

So i posted some of your responses over there and they are blatantly ignoring them and still trying to argue. Main point being cross ups. I kept your anonymity and did not name names. None of them post here. I swear IGN is casual corner. However i would love for you guys if you are an ign member (free for the MK board) to go in there and either call me an idiot for voicing my opinions over their MK argument and tell me i'm completely wrong or come and spit some knowledge to them that I don't have. I'm trying to expand the game over there and get more people in it, but jesus christ it is an uphill battle.

http://boards.ign.com/mortal_kombat/b6027/204908260/r204957051/?statusId=PostReplySuccess


That's the thread where it started. Getting salty over this.

 

[Euphoric]

You can't spell ignorant without IGN, and that's what most all of the fanbase over there is. Those forums are a joke, and so are the posters. That dude that said that MK has no 50/50, is a plain dumbass. The poster boy for MK, he's all 50/50, Kabal has his 11 B 4, Subzero has one, etc.

I wouldn't waste my time with ignorant people, save your knowledge and the stress, and come have some educated discussions on TYM.

 

[Enenra]

You can't spell ignorant without IGN, and that's what most all of the fanbase over there is. Those forums are a joke, and so are the posters. That dude that said that MK has no 50/50, is a plain dumbass. The poster boy for MK, he's all 50/50, Kabal has his 11 F 4, Subzero has one, etc.

I wouldn't waste my time with ignorant people, save your knowledge and the stress, and come have some educated discussions on TYM.

It's so literally true it's funny. The freakin' poster boy, the most popular character, and the creator's favorite character...
Is mix ups. Pure and simple.

 

[JrK]

It's like we're in high school again.





Oh wait.. you probably are.

 

[aj1701]

Anyone can pick up MK9, spend 30 minutes in the lab, and come out with huge combos. It's certainly not that easy in sf.

Well that, and being able to do a combo in practice vs. being able to hit another human player are two drastically different things.

I've encountered online a share of players that got the 37% combo every time, but once I stopped them from actually being able to do it, they had nothing.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Ok altho not in direct accordance to the statements in the op heres how i look at it. on paper, sf has more depth than mk yes. However, having a simpler system, like mk, can also allow more mindgames and creativity. So at the highest level, the players are still playing similar mindgames. As long as a game is balanced, it isn't the game that makes the depth, its the players. Sorry if i didn't explain that well, really tired.

 

[MagicMan357]

MK9 flaws:
- Easy combos, easy damage (but so does every fighter)
- weak footsies game (SF's is alot more fluent and rewarding)
- some character design (Dunno what they were thinking with some fighters)
But thats it, everything else it actually does way better than SF because it doesnt give you these arbitrary tools like option select crap.
Its easy to pick up MK and do a high combo but actually playing a person who's high level is completely different, and you have to remember the game just came out. Set ups in MK are high rewarding and dont count on some ridiculous crossup tactic over and over because of horrible intricate frame strategies.
I also love when people talk about combos, considering by that logic SF has way easier and high damaging combos and the only way to get out it random frame gaps -_-. Seriously capcom fanboys dickride because others do and dont even see the full picture.

Also look at the mind games of SF vs MK's, im sorry but moving back and forth throwing out random moves cant compare with smokes whole character design based on mindgames and thats just one person in the game.

Waiting for some idiot to call me a troll

 

[Euphoric]

I don't know why people these days consider the complexity of a FG or games in general to be considered good (FG) or 'hardcore'(other games). It's more so about the gameplay, reactions, judgement, assessments, execution, creativity (MK might fall short here), and wits, mindgames. Which IMO, MK does well for it's first iteration in the competitive department.

Chess is fairy simple, yet it's complex at the same time.

You can have a Cyrax player that knows all the easy 50% BnBs and Resets, but if he lacks any of the other things mentioned above, I bet he's going to not succeed.

 

[Juggs]

Here we go comparing games again... ffs people are obsessed with doing this ridiculousness.

 

[Saint]

Well that, and being able to do a combo in practice vs. being able to hit another human player are two drastically different things.

I've encountered online a share of players that got the 37% combo every time, but once I stopped them from actually being able to do it, they had nothing.

Exactly, being able to perform the combo on a target dummy is 1% of the job done.

 

[Ruuku1012]

All of the fighting games mentioned in this thread are completely difference and none are perfect. Too many fanatics and sheep.

 

[Subby]

*sigh* Whatever happend to the days where you did your homework on your information instead of blindly jumping on a wagon?

Anyway, this person is probobly(Hopefully) VERY misinformed. Theres more depth to MK than other fighting game fans give it credit for. Its also still a new game so potential has yet to be discovered/exploited.

Im thinking of making an account and trying to settle things there. Anyone want to join in, or should I not even try?