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How is Nightwolf not OP. But cyrax is?

P

Past

Apprentice
Altaire said:
This is the worst logic I've seen in months.

No shit Baraka's spin isn't as good as Kung Lao's; that's why he has other, better tools to make up for it. Chopchop is one of the absolute strongest moves in the game once your opponent is cornered, and EX charge is great for cutting through zoning attempts. Kung Lao can't do that, can he? You compare Kabal to Liu Kang, not realizing that Kabal has vastly superior zoning while Liu Kang has vastly superior pressure strings and higher combo damage. You compare Nightwolf to Jade, not realizing that Jade all but invalidates zoning attempts and has much better pokes than Nightwolf does. You say that all of these characters have variations of the same concept; good job, you just described damn near every fighting game since the dawn of time. How many characters in Street Fighter have a generic projectile, an anti-air and possibly an advancing move of some sort (dash, roll, etc.)? Why, look at that: Cammy. Fei Long. Rufus. Sagat. Guile. Sodom. Guy. Urien. Gen. All of these characters have at LEAST two of the three, so what now?

MK9 is remarkable for the fact that every character in the game has some sort of competitive niche. They all have at least a few good tools to handle the majority of situations that arise, and each one has a fairly unique role in the metagame. The fact that you think one character is strictly better than another just because they have one better attack isn't even sensible.

Oh, and I lol'd at the comparison between Raiden's teleport and Skarlet's, when they're not even remotely similar functionally. You really have no idea what you're talking about at this point. Lord of the Fly hit this one right on the nail, case closed.
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You must be joking if Baraka other, better tools than Kung Lao. If that true then baraka is the best character in the game. Kabal can do the same amount of damage and is one the best pressure characters in the game with dash cancels. You're missing the point. The best characters are the ones with the best versions of these conceptual attacks. Comparing it to street fighter does not invalidate that because unlike most people, I know and played other fighting games than Street fighter and MK.
 
Altaire

Altaire

Warrior
Past said:
You must be joking if Baraka other, better tools than Kung Lao. If that true then baraka is the best character in the game. Kabal can do the same amount of damage and is one the best pressure characters in the game with dash cancels. You're missing the point. The best characters are the ones with the best versions of these conceptual attacks. Comparing it to street fighter does not invalidate that because unlike most people, I know and played other fighting games than Street fighter and MK.
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If you know them as well as you know Street Fighter and MK, you might want to reevaluate that claim.

I said Baraka has other, better tools than his spin, which is why it's not as good as Kung Lao's, and he'd be pretty damn broken if it were. Learn to read.
 
Shady

Shady

Kombatant
I'm just going to say one thing about it. And while I agree with Fly that he does need armor on EX Shoulder Charge, I am the same stance about it as on Cage's EX Shadow Kick. It has to be a set number of frames, at start up, and to a specific point. As it stands, a lot of Nightwolf players are able to hang back, nullify zoning with reflect, get great anti air out of the fastest uppercut in the game and also EX Shoulder you to death if they get tired of reflect. Same with Cage, amazing rushdown, but used to have to work to get in, now, it's just wait for projectile, EX Kick at any time. There still has to be a level of skill to using those moves (which I see primarily as counter moves), and limited armor frames would contribute to that. Look at Kabal's EX Dash. Yes, you can combo of EX Dash, but I'm not saying it should be as short, give it a little more armor, but don't just put it on the whole move and call it a day.

EDIT: That last part was me talking about armor being a little longer was not about the EX Dash about about the kick and the charge, read it, seemed confusing.
 
RWDY Nori

RWDY Nori

MK is kinda dope
Cyrax is overpowered because he gets 60% on 1 combo w/meter. Most Cyrax players beat players they have no business beating simply because of broken damage. NW has to work for a win. He is not top tier. At all. When a NW places top 3 at a major, a NW only player, then np. Just look at Cyrax in tourneys. It's very easy to see who's better (until Cyrax damage is fixed)
 
Altaire

Altaire

Warrior
Nori said:
Cyrax is overpowered because he gets 60% on 1 combo w/meter. Most Cyrax players beat players they have no business beating simply because of broken damage. NW has to work for a win. He is not top tier. At all. When a NW places top 3 at a major, a NW only player, then np. Just look at Cyrax in tourneys. It's very easy to see who's better (until Cyrax damage is fixed)
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I love how you have this outdated mentality that any character who doesn't win at tournaments isn't good.

Tell me, what would you consider the top tier? Who do you think the ten best characters in the game are?
 
RWDY Nori

RWDY Nori

MK is kinda dope
Altaire said:
I love how you have this outdated mentality that any character who doesn't win at tournaments isn't good.

Tell me, what would you consider the top tier? Who do you think the ten best characters in the game are?
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How long have you been entering tournaments? I've been doing it 10 years. Most people like to think because they are beating their friends w/a char, he's top tier. Everybody wants their char as top tier. Tiers are based on tools and since the days of ST, matchups also. This will not change just because you feel like it. And If you can't see Cyrax being better than NW, you really have never experience high level play. If NW is top tier, why is he not cracking top 16 at Evo, top 5 at ANY major? I'm shocked that doesn't speak volumes to you. On that note, top 10:

1) Kabal/Raiden/KL
4) Cyrax
5) Reptile
6) Kitana
7) Rain
8) Sub Zero
9) JC
10) Mileena



These are the chars that are discussed the most on both the matchup chart list and tier thread. You are more than welcome to go into those threads and present facts the community isn't aware of
 
A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Nori said:
How long have you been entering tournaments? I've been doing it 10 years. Most people like to think because they are beating their friends w/a char, he's top tier. Everybody wants their char as top tier. Tiers are based on tools and since the days of ST, matchups also. This will not change just because you feel like it. And If you can't see Cyrax being better than NW, you really have never experience high level play. If NW is top tier, why is he not cracking top 16 at Evo, top 5 at ANY major? I'm shocked that doesn't speak volumes to you. On that note, top 10:

1) Kabal/Raiden/KL
4) Cyrax
5) Reptile
6) Kitana
7) Rain
8) Sub Zero
9) JC
10) Mileena



These are the chars that are discussed the most on both the matchup chart list and tier thread. You are more than welcome to go into those threads and present facts the community isn't aware of
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Nightwolf is definitely top tier, the reason hes not top 16 evo or winning any major is because the lack of a fan base, nobody plays them. The same could be said for Sonya/Sektor.

You can use online as an example here, how many people can you play online that use 1 of the characters listed in your top 10. But i dont see SZ beating a sektor or a NW. Sonya takes out a majority of the top tier too (Kabal/Raiden/Reptile/Kitana)
 
P

Past

Apprentice
Altaire said:
If you know them as well as you know Street Fighter and MK, you might want to reevaluate that claim.

I said Baraka has other, better tools than his spin, which is why it's not as good as Kung Lao's, and he'd be pretty damn broken if it were. Learn to read.
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I'm not reevaluating my claim. You said Baraka has better tools than a super fast anti air spin and yet he viewed as one of the worst characters in the game. Kung Lao's spin is better and he also has the best low projectile in the game when compared with everyone else's. Thats why he's one of the best. If you say is true that baraka has better tools and deserves to have a half assed spin for the sake of balance, then we would see more barakas and threads like these wouldn't exist.
 
Shady

Shady

Kombatant
Nori said:
How long have you been entering tournaments? I've been doing it 10 years. Most people like to think because they are beating their friends w/a char, he's top tier. Everybody wants their char as top tier. Tiers are based on tools and since the days of ST, matchups also. This will not change just because you feel like it. And If you can't see Cyrax being better than NW, you really have never experience high level play. If NW is top tier, why is he not cracking top 16 at Evo, top 5 at ANY major? I'm shocked that doesn't speak volumes to you. On that note, top 10:

1) Kabal/Raiden/KL
4) Cyrax
5) Reptile
6) Kitana
7) Rain
8) Sub Zero
9) JC
10) Mileena



These are the chars that are discussed the most on both the matchup chart list and tier thread. You are more than welcome to go into those threads and present facts the community isn't aware of
Click to expand...
Not really any of my business, but here is how this is flawed, just one argument that you made. And I might be wrong here (correct me if I am, but I'm pretty sure I'm not) was Raiden at top 16 at Evo? Just saying, if that's your qualifier for tiers and you have him at the very top.
 
RWDY Nori

RWDY Nori

MK is kinda dope
Shady9XD said:
Not really any of my business, but here is how this is flawed, just one argument that you made. And I might be wrong here (correct me if I am, but I'm pretty sure I'm not) was Raiden at top 16 at Evo? Just saying, if that's your qualifier for tiers and you have him at the very top.
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JOP got 3rd place at Evo w/Raiden and JC.

Also, it's not a matter of "my business" or "your business". MK is a community game. Anybody can have an opinion about tiers. It's just that people might disagree w/yours (or mine) at any given time. MK9 as a whole is pretty balanced


Foxy: Fan base or not, tiers over time have to be proven in order for that char to stay in that spot.
 
A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
JOP used raiden and came 3rd Shady.

Nori that doesnt make any sense. Say KL was in Jades situation, and barely anybody played him in tournaments. That wouldnt mean that he was low down the tier list because obviously he isnt, its just that nobody gets to see what he can do. Like I was saying before this can be applied to NW.
 
RWDY Nori

RWDY Nori

MK is kinda dope
A F0xy Grampa said:
JOP used raiden and came 3rd Shady.

Nori that doesnt make any sense. Say KL was in Jades situation, and barely anybody played him in tournaments. That wouldnt mean that he was low down the tier list because obviously he isnt, its just that nobody gets to see what he can do. Like I was saying before this can be applied to NW.
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After a while (this game has been out since late april), people aren't drinking the kool aide of NW being top tier anymore. By this time, if he truly was, he should have been well represented in tournaments. So maybe, people actually are learning how to fight NW and he isn't as bad as he's made out to be.

For NW to be top tier, ask yourself this: Does he have BETTER tools than the established top 5? I promise you if Cyrax doesn't do 60-80% damage off of 1 meter, he's nowhere near top 5, let alone top 10. NW's strings are not that great w/not great range. F3, 1, hatchet is excellent. The range, is complete ass. His hatchet is good, but it's slow and gets stuffed quite often. His shoulder is easily ducked at high level. His lightning is great, but a huge risk. His arrow is average, at best. His reflect is great, except when it's baited. NW is upper mid, certainly not top tier.


Shady: For most of the tourney, from what I was told, he used Raiden
 
Shady

Shady

Kombatant
Nori said:
Shady: For most of the tourney, from what I was told, he used Raiden
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Really? Interesting (not being a dick here, actually interesting to me), because every time he was on stream I only saw the Raiden loss and him switching right to Cage and whooping ass. So it's safe to say that he used Cage against better players, so that would be saying something as well then.
 
A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Shady9XD said:
Really? Interesting (not being a dick here, actually interesting to me), because every time he was on stream I only saw the Raiden loss and him switching right to Cage and whooping ass. So it's safe to say that he used Cage against better players, so that would be saying something as well then.
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He used cage in like 2 matches, and 1 he lost.

Nori, it depends on how you consider a character top tier, because NW kicks the crap out of the majority of the cast, excluding obviously the top 3-5, but the same could be said for Cage, most of his bad matchups are characters at the top (Cyrax/Reptile/Kabal/Raiden) so does that also make cage not a top tier character? (I dont consider him to be but thats besides the arguement :p)

The way I like to look at a tier list is: Who has the least bad matchups?

NW in general must have about 4 (KL/Kabal/Raiden/Reptile)5 if you wanna count Mileena (Ketchup thinks so)
Cage has about 9 (Noob/Raiden/Kabal/SZ/Skarlet/Kitana/Cyrax/Kenshi/Sindel)

And yet JC is considered top tier and people are now starting to think that NW isnt?

You cant base a tier list off of tournament placings of characters, because not all players are equal and therefore not all characters will be able to place according to how good they are compared to another character.
 
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