Zatanna in the corner = high damage + vortex

[KillaGthug4Life]

does the armour stop her getting hit from those that can wake up like I'm assuming Grundy bf3 ? if lightning cage hits she gets the df3 otg so I don't think it's a bad option considering how much pressure you can apply in the corner with trait.

True, but any armored or invincible wakeup that hits more than once beats lightning cage. But against the majority of wakeups, yes she crushes. Off the top of my head I can't think of any right now, there are a few ppl in the cast that can punish a whiffed lightning cage: ie green lanterns low string. But yes, oh do put it on to the myriad of set ups you can do to end this combo in the corner.

 

[Cosmos]

True, but any armored or invincible wakeup that hits more than once beats lightning cage. But against the majority of wakeups, yes she crushes. Off the top of my head I can't think of any right now, there are a few ppl in the cast that can punish a whiffed lightning cage: ie green lanterns low string. But yes, oh do put it on to the myriad of set ups you can do to end this combo in the corner.

If the first lightning cage is blocked it pushes you too far away so that a second one will whiff so dash forward first if you are going for pressure. Those that can punish lightning cage could you not cancel trait into tele away to blow the wake up for a full combo? Otherwise if you know they can punish lightning cage just stick with f21. I personally like the trait combo just because you can build back the meter you spend on doing the 50% combo

 

[@MylesWright_]

I remember when everyone was crying about safe 50/50s rendering their 'fundamentals' useless and simply having to guess a coin flip when they were all still getting opened up by d1 ice arrow

 

[bishbash]

If the first lightning cage is blocked it pushes you too far away so that a second one will whiff so dash forward first if you are going for pressure. Those that can punish lightning cage could you not cancel trait into tele away to blow the wake up for a full combo? Otherwise if you know they can punish lightning cage just stick with f21. I personally like the trait combo just because you can build back the meter you spend on doing the 50% combo

If they block lightning cage I throw out a low spark as they usually just stand there waiting for another one. Or 3-cage if I think they'll try to jump out.

Ending with trait-tele away to cancel trait is what I'd do if I was playing say catwoman and she had more than 1 scratch on trait then I could punish with MB trance.

After a long combo into MB trance you can trait up and end with 2-pillar. Pillar will hit OTG so you either get the chip and meter build on block of a full trait corner combo.

I think lighting cage can stuff most wakeups but the timing requirements can get strict. You can stuff DS sword flip with it but I can't get it every time. I wouldn't even try online.[/quote]

 

[bishbash]

I remember when everyone was crying about safe 50/50s rendering their 'fundamentals' useless and simply having to guess a coin flip when they were all still getting opened up by d1 ice arrow

Do you remember when Killer Frost was still viable?

 

[Cosmos]

I tested on batgirl and aquaman though his trait might nullify combo potential. If they tech and wakeup with trident rush or flipkicks which hits through lightning cage you can cancel trait into tele away and 3 for a punish into full combo until they start respecting it.

 

[DarksydeDash]

You are giving me hope. ;~;

 

[Cosmos]

If they block lightning cage I throw out a low spark as they usually just stand there waiting for another one. Or 3-cage if I think they'll try to jump out.

Ending with trait-tele away to cancel trait is what I'd do if I was playing say catwoman and she had more than 1 scratch on trait then I could punish with MB trance.

After a long combo into MB trance you can trait up and end with 2-pillar. Pillar will hit OTG so you either get the chip and meter build on block of a full trait corner combo.

I think lighting cage can stuff most wakeups but the timing requirements can get strict. You can stuff DS sword flip with it but I can't get it every time. I wouldn't even try online.

[/quote]
For ds sword flip i'm pretty sure you can cancel trait tele back block the last hit and punish with 3.

 

[DarksydeDash]

I just realized the horrible pun I made..

 

[bishbash]

For ds sword flip i'm pretty sure you can cancel trait tele back block the last hit and punish with 3.[/quote]


You could just trait up and hold back surely? definite punish then

 

[Cosmos]

For ds sword flip i'm pretty sure you can cancel trait tele back block the last hit and punish with 3.

You could just trait up and hold back surely? definite punish then[/quote]
Aha yeah im pretty sure its the same thing except you get a little meter from the tele. Off course just holding back is a lot safer so it's probably the better option to be fair

 

[KillaGthug4Life]

For ds sword flip i'm pretty sure you can cancel trait tele back block the last hit and punish with 3.[/quote]
Sword flip just wait a second before you do the lightning cage. Just a moment. Batgirl's carwheel I can't remember if that beats her lightning cage. As for Flash, his mb charge thingi beats lightning cage.

As a side note, yeah typically hit one and then go for low spark, just never be predictable cause a dash in for a lightning cage can easily be punished, low spark can be jumped over and punished. And spamming Lightning cage can be punished if they hold a mb b3 (let themselves get hit) and then release. Don't tell anyone that though ^.^ but I agree, trait corner is boss.

 

[Cosmos]

For ds sword flip i'm pretty sure you can cancel trait tele back block the last hit and punish with 3.

Sword flip just wait a second before you do the lightning cage. Just a moment. Batgirl's carwheel I can't remember if that beats her lightning cage. As for Flash, his mb charge thingi beats lightning cage.

As a side note, yeah typically hit one and then go for low spark, just never be predictable cause a dash in for a lightning cage can easily be punished, low spark can be jumped over and punished. And spamming Lightning cage can be punished if they hold a mb b3 (let themselves get hit) and then release. Don't tell anyone that though ^.^ but I agree, trait corner is boss.[/quote]
Thanks man double lightning cage in the corner is a bad habit i need to get out of babs cartwheel definitly goes through lightning cage but it honestly seems that any char that can hit through lightning cage gets beat by cancelling trait into tele away. Most flash players wakeup with lightning kick as its fully invincible (right?) and 6f. I would have thought lightning cage would hit through that. I appreciate this isn't as strong as the 50/50 but i like the potential amount of meter you can make back from this setup.

 

[KillaGthug4Life]

Flash is difficult to throw into the corner regardless. I don't like using Zatanna in this matchup. But his lightning charge MB has armor/invincibility on wakeup I believe, hence why it beats lightning cage.

 

[Cosmos]

I dont really need the corner when playing against flash. Once i have a bar i'll go full screen setup a slow fireball then go into trait and spam sparks. You build back the meter you spend on the fireball so can keep on repeating. Yeah it does beat lightning cage so if you are expecting it just crouch block and punish with 112. To be honest this does seem very bad against flashes wakeups so it might be better to just go for the 50/50 in this mu

 

[Pan1cMode]

I dont really need the corner when playing against flash. Once i have a bar i'll go full screen setup a slow fireball then go into trait and spam sparks. You build back the meter you spend on the fireball so can keep on repeating. Yeah it does beat lightning cage so if you are expecting it just crouch block and punish with 112. To be honest this does seem very bad against flashes wakeups so it might be better to just go for the 50/50 in this mu

He'll walk up to the fireball and block it. Takes like 2.5% chip from the entire ordeal and can then walk in on you while you're in trait.

 

[Cosmos]

He'll walk up to the fireball and block it. Takes like 2.5% chip from the entire ordeal and can then walk in on you while you're in trait.

He will also be taking chip from blocked sparks if he is just walking up to the fireball. We still have tele so even if he does start to get close we can always space out more. Not to mention flashes main way of getting in from midscreen is punishable normal or meter burned and if he dashes he is going to be eating chip damage from sparks.

 

[bishbash]

He will also be taking chip from blocked sparks if he is just walking up to the fireball. We still have tele so even if he does start to get close we can always space out more. Not to mention flashes main way of getting in from midscreen is punishable normal or meter burned and if he dashes he is going to be eating chip damage from sparks.

I rarely use the mb fireball into trait set up unless I have a massive life lead and feel like laming my opponent out, trait zoning is easy for most of the cast to at least avoid if they play patiently which a good Flash usually will and meter gain isn't that great outside of on block. I find this MU heavily in his favour.

I think sometimes we can confuse the fact that our opponents have little if any experience against Zatanna with a MU being even or maybe in our favour. @Rodrigue what are your thoughts on this MU?

 

[Cosmos]

I rarely use the mb fireball into trait set up unless I have a massive life lead and feel like laming my opponent out, trait zoning is easy for most of the cast to at least avoid if they play patiently which a good Flash usually will and meter gain isn't that great outside of on block. I find this MU heavily in his favour.

I think sometimes we can confuse the fact that our opponents have little if any experience against Zatanna with a MU being even or maybe in our favour. @Rodrigue what are your thoughts on this MU?

I think you are right in that im leaning towards our favour because they dont know the mu as both your points are pretty fair i.e. He can just take fireball chip and vibrate through sparks :/ in hindsight no matchup is this 2 dimensional. I do disagree on this mu being heavily in his favour though.

 

[KillaGthug4Life]

I rarely use the mb fireball into trait set up unless I have a massive life lead and feel like laming my opponent out, trait zoning is easy for most of the cast to at least avoid if they play patiently which a good Flash usually will and meter gain isn't that great outside of on block. I find this MU heavily in his favour.

I think sometimes we can confuse the fact that our opponents have little if any experience against Zatanna with a MU being even or maybe in our favour. @Rodrigue what are your thoughts on this MU?

I wouldn't say heavily. More around evenish maybe slight favor to flash.. maybe. But it's just once he gets in it's so difficult to get him out. Zatanna's bad normals suffer a lot in this matchup. But I look at it like the matchup with WW, you have to zone her out all day but once she's up close things go bad fast.

 

[bishbash]

I wouldn't say heavily. More around evenish maybe slight favor to flash.. maybe. But it's just once he gets in it's so difficult to get him out. Zatanna's bad normals suffer a lot in this matchup. But I look at it like the matchup with WW, you have to zone her out all day but once she's up close things go bad fast.

Maybe heavily was an overstatement but I'd argue 6-4. He can punish lots of our options within charge distance, which is pretty huge, he doesn't even have to MB it as standing 3 does not punish, his normals are better, his damage output significantly higher and his cross up f3 setups can screw up wakeup tele inputs or charge on read of tele away or just bait tele behind into full combo punish. If we're having to block on wakeup then he's in out face the entire match. Speaking of WW she's usually my go to for the flash MU

 

[RelentlessOhio]

I didn't know you could actually pick Zatanna. I thought her portrait was there to make the left side symmetrical to the right >

 

[Rodrigue]

@bishbash "heavily in our favor" is a bit too much I'd say. It's a 5-5 imo. You can lame him out but a good flash always finds a way in. I dunno if you notice that but once I'm up in your face, I try keeping you under my pressure. Once I'm in, there is nothing you can really do except teleport. We have to grind that MU further. I play 100% rushdown characters and I always find a way in once you try to zone me out. I think RMS 3 can slide under a fireball but the recovery on that is atrocious, not sure though gonna have to ask @Pan1cMode . He plays megabytes regularly. Oh and don't underestimate the power of mbLC lol. A well timed LC can catch you off guard. So that's an easy 31% (42% if traited)

 

[bishbash]

@bishbash "heavily in our favor" is a bit too much I'd say. It's a 5-5 imo. You can lame him out but a good flash always finds a way in. I dunno if you notice that but once I'm up in your face, I try keeping you under my pressure. Once I'm in, there is nothing you can really do except teleport. We have to grind that MU further. I play 100% rushdown characters and I always find a way in once you try to zone me out. I think RMS 3 can slide under a fireball but the recovery on that is atrocious, not sure though gonna have to ask @Pan1cMode . He plays megabytes regularly. Oh and don't underestimate the power of mbLC lol. A well timed LC can catch you off guard. So that's an easy 31% (42% if traited)

I find your flash very difficult to keep out, that's why I asked you to weigh in. I did say heavily might be an overstatement a post or two on but I think he has everything needed to be in our faces a lot of the match. I've noticed that once you're in I block until I guess wrong yes, I need to stop being so intent on hanging onto that meter and pushblock more. I find all I can do is try to anticipate your dash and try catch you with a standing 3 into trance, but if I misjudge against either of your characters I'm back in the grinder lol.

 

[Rodrigue]

I find your flash very difficult to keep out, that's why I asked you to weigh in. I did say heavily might be an overstatement a post or two on but I think he has everything needed to be in our faces a lot of the match. I've noticed that once you're in I block until I guess wrong yes, I need to stop being so intent on hanging onto that meter and pushblock more. I find all I can do is try to anticipate your dash and try catch you with a standing 3 into trance, but if I misjudge against either of your characters I'm back in the grinder lol.

Now you're talking! A blocked trance is punished by a LC from midscreen as well so you have to be careful