How Balanced is Injustice really?

[SaltShaker]

@SaltShaker, everyone would love to have another minor balance patch added to remove the nerfs to Joker/Lex and remove the stupidity of OH tele.
But who's going to fund it? WB and NRS are most likely done with patches.
And even if NRS can do hotfixes, it won't solve the current issues now since hotfixes are very limited and universal to all characters.

Look at it this way, right now we don't have the issue of UMvC3 where the game's meta/evolution is dead because there are no more patches or updates to the game, where now only 6-8 characters can actually be used in high level play. And by high level play, I'm talking about all the way from top 32 to top 8.

Almost a year since the patch, we haven't at all come close to anything where only very few characters can be in top 8 - in fact, as the metagame progresses, we keep on seeing more diverse characters in the mix.
This game is actually even more balanced than Street Fighter 4, where respectively only specific few characters can make it out in top 16. As it is now, MMH hasn't even reached a tenth of the level of Cammy's dominance in the meta game - perhaps in the future it will, but as SF4 has shown, even with such an OP character like Cammy, the game still perseveres.

I strongly disagree that "everyone would love to have another minor balance patch". As where some people in this very thread are going the "he's fine, everything is fine" route. I do agree that we may have seen the last of patches though. Hopefully not, but it looks very grim.

Now let me say this, the game itself is not unbalanced, nor is the cast. Nothing like UMvC3. Nothing like T4 Jin which I've actually faced hundreds of times in tourneys. He isn't THAT level bad and the game isn't that level unbalanced, but he does unbalance it. I only believe HE, MMH, is overly unbalanced COMPARED to the rest of the cast.

To reference your SF example, Cammy is a perfect person to use here. Cammy is "arguably" the best character in the game, MMH "is" the best character in the game. Characters like Akuma, Fei Long, Seth, can make an argument for being either the best or veryyyy close to it. No one can argue being on the level of MMH. SF chars have been explored to the last ink drop. More MMH exploring will lead to even more dominance and superiority over the rest of the cast. Etc.

Where as if Cammy wasn't in SF it would still be a greatly balanced game, if MMH wasn't the way he was this game would be INFINITELY more balanced, now and especially in the future. The game will survive regardless. It's a fun to play and fun to watch game, but this might get ugly.

I will admit you made some good points, but I think you and I disagree on the level of incoming silliness that MMH will bring. If he was another Cammy I may grunt a little but would probably deal with it (like i do with Cammy). This feels more like, "i wonder what it would be like if Scorpion still had great recovery and was +9 on his blocked teleports". Do we really want to know what the future would have brought? I can't help but shake the feeling that once another 6 months or so pass we'll be talking about all the 7-3's 8-2's and how much more dominant he is.

 

[arde5643]

I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment regarding Cammy. In most of Cammy's match-ups, she has the touch of death almost ublockable vortex that even some characters with safe FADC moves cannot escape.
Cammy has:
* excellent footsies (best or at least top 2 in the game) that easily controls 1/2 screen
* drill makes it hard to zone her from 3/4 screen since she can punish anything on reaction
* excellent air mobility
* excellent wake-up
* touch of death vortex from a grab or almost any knockdown set ups
* great walking speed and good backdashes
* excellent anti air normal and special - meaning you can't jump at her unless it's a safejump
* great safe frame traps
* chip capability

I think of Cammy as a combination of Aquaman's footsies/chip capability + Batgirl's vortex + Zod's backdash + MMH regular tele/frame traps/air dashes + Shazam wake-up.

Currently, I don't think MMH is that OP yet. But you're right ... who knows in months or more as we find more tech for MMH, he might reach Cammy level.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

I strongly disagree that "everyone would love to have another minor balance patch". As where some people in this very thread are going the "he's fine, everything is fine" route. I do agree that we may have seen the last of patches though. Hopefully not, but it looks very grim.

Now let me say this, the game itself is not unbalanced, nor is the cast. Nothing like UMvC3. Nothing like T4 Jin which I've actually faced hundreds of times in tourneys. He isn't THAT level bad and the game isn't that level unbalanced, but he does unbalance it. I only believe HE, MMH, is overly unbalanced COMPARED to the rest of the cast.

To reference your SF example, Cammy is a perfect person to use here. Cammy is "arguably" the best character in the game, MMH "is" the best character in the game. Characters like Akuma, Fei Long, Seth, can make an argument for being either the best or veryyyy close to it. No one can argue being on the level of MMH. SF chars have been explored to the last ink drop. More MMH exploring will lead to even more dominance and superiority over the rest of the cast. Etc.

Where as if Cammy wasn't in SF it would still be a greatly balanced game, if MMH wasn't the way he was this game would be INFINITELY more balanced, now and especially in the future. The game will survive regardless. It's a fun to play and fun to watch game, but this might get ugly.

I will admit you made some good points, but I think you and I disagree on the level of incoming silliness that MMH will bring. If he was another Cammy I may grunt a little but would probably deal with it (like i do with Cammy). This feels more like, "i wonder what it would be like if Scorpion still had great recovery and was +9 on his blocked teleports". Do we really want to know what the future would have brought? I can't help but shake the feeling that once another 6 months or so pass we'll be talking about all the 7-3's 8-2's and how much more dominant he is.

I'm currently still a scrub at SF4 trying to level up my game so I hesitate to make analogies, but would it be fair to say that Martian Manhunter is what you'd get if you took Seth and then gave him a hefty Health buff?

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment regarding Cammy. In most of Cammy's match-ups, she has the touch of death almost ublockable vortex that even some characters with safe FADC moves cannot escape.
Cammy has:
* excellent footsies (best or at least top 2 in the game) that easily controls 1/2 screen
* drill makes it hard to zone her from 3/4 screen since she can punish anything on reaction
* excellent air mobility
* excellent wake-up
* touch of death vortex from a grab or almost any knockdown set ups
* great walking speed and good backdashes
* excellent anti air normal and special - meaning you can't jump at her unless it's a safejump
* great safe frame traps
* chip capability

I think of Cammy as a combination of Aquaman's footsies/chip capability + Batgirl's vortex + Zod's backdash + MMH regular tele/frame traps/air dashes + Shazam wake-up.

Currently, I don't think MMH is that OP yet. But you're right ... who knows in months or more as we find more tech for MMH, he might reach Cammy level.

*goes to eventhubs.com to look at the matchup chart for Cammy for AE v.2012* EDIT: Apparently I misread this chart, however the point still stands she has some 4-6 matchups, see C. Viper and Fei Long

And yet she has losing matchups against Sagat 4-6, Seth 4-6 etc... And let me tell you, AE v.2012 Sagat is not overpowered. Cammy may be high tier, but who cares? Very few can play her at that ridiculous level you mentioned. 1 frame links are hard to master. You don't pick those up in a day and do them with hardly any error.

Listen. I'm not gonna read through the entire topic. I think people just need to learn the matchup. This is nowhere near MK9 levels of imbalance, nor is it completely flawless, but game balance in fighting games is always opinionated.

You can complain about MMH all you want. You can argue Batgirl's vortex is OP. You can say such and such about any character.

But you know what separates a pro from a rookie in fighting games? They don't make excuses at the end of the day when they lose. They don't say "Well my character has a 4-6 matchup against so and so, I didn't expect to win and he needs to be toned down." when they lose a match. They say this: "I'm gonna come back stronger and i'm going to learn what can I do to prevent this from happening again so i'm in a better chance to win it all." Because even if it is a 4-6 matchup, they know that they can still win. If it was unwinnable, it'd be 10-0 and no one would likely ever play that kinda game, or at least the character on the 0 side of things. The player on the 6-4 side of things HAS to play it like a 6-4 or he loses.

Until the majority of this community begins to accept that, and I like to think alot have judging by the responses of people: Hold Dat L.

 

[THTB]

I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment regarding Cammy. In most of Cammy's match-ups, she has the touch of death almost ublockable vortex that even some characters with safe FADC moves cannot escape.
Cammy has:
* excellent footsies (best or at least top 2 in the game) that easily controls 1/2 screen
* drill makes it hard to zone her from 3/4 screen since she can punish anything on reaction
* excellent air mobility
* excellent wake-up
* touch of death vortex from a grab or almost any knockdown set ups
* great walking speed and good backdashes
* excellent anti air normal and special - meaning you can't jump at her unless it's a safejump
* great safe frame traps
* chip capability

I think of Cammy as a combination of Aquaman's footsies/chip capability + Batgirl's vortex + Zod's backdash + MMH regular tele/frame traps/air dashes + Shazam wake-up.

Currently, I don't think MMH is that OP yet. But you're right ... who knows in months or more as we find more tech for MMH, he might reach Cammy level.

You are overrating the hell out of Cammy. She is among the best in 2012, but no way in hell does she have top 2 footsies lol.

Cammy's struggles in the neutral game. She has to get in and go Miley Cyrus on your ass or she struggles. And because almost all of her specials are unsafe as hell when she gets where she wants to be, she has a shitty chip damage game. Her up close game is absurd, but she has a hard time when the opponent and poke and prod her and keep her from getting there.

Which is why she still has losing matchups.

 

[SaltShaker]

Wo

I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment regarding Cammy. In most of Cammy's match-ups, she has the touch of death almost ublockable vortex that even some characters with safe FADC moves cannot escape.
Cammy has:
* excellent footsies (best or at least top 2 in the game) that easily controls 1/2 screen
* drill makes it hard to zone her from 3/4 screen since she can punish anything on reaction
* excellent air mobility
* excellent wake-up
* touch of death vortex from a grab or almost any knockdown set ups
* great walking speed and good backdashes
* excellent anti air normal and special - meaning you can't jump at her unless it's a safejump
* great safe frame traps
* chip capability

I think of Cammy as a combination of Aquaman's footsies/chip capability + Batgirl's vortex + Zod's backdash + MMH regular tele/frame traps/air dashes + Shazam wake-up.

Currently, I don't think MMH is that OP yet. But you're right ... who knows in months or more as we find more tech for MMH, he might reach Cammy level.

WOA. Well all I can say to that is I think you are severely overrating Cammy. She is easily Top 2 in the game, but nowhere near as overpowering as half those points and has a few losing MUs.

When we look back at this thread months later when MMH officially has zero losing MUs and his 7-3's start to become universally accepted we'll laugh at this.

Also, Cammy's level is "arguably the best in her respective game, but definitely top 3 who loses to a few characters". MMH's level is "definitely the best in his respective game with more to explore and expand his already expanding leading over the entire roster". If you think THAT highly of Cammy, you might want to reconsider your opinion of Martian.

 

[SaltShaker]

I'm currently still a scrub at SF4 trying to level up my game so I hesitate to make analogies, but would it be fair to say that Martian Manhunter is what you'd get if you took Seth and then gave him a hefty Health buff?

Funny, because that's actually a very good call. Yea maybe the playstyles have some similarities and other differences, but face value comparison is valid.

Seth with strong health would probably be too overpowering compared to the rest of the cast, and him being a glass cannon is one of the main balances of his character. He wouldn't be "broken" so to say, he would just be too many notches better than the rest of the cast. Like MMH.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Could it be Jupiter is just a really good player, maybe one of our bests?

You lose to him not only because he's playing a very good character, but mostly because he is just genuinely better than you?

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

Could it be Jupiter is just a really good player, maybe one of our bests?

You lose to him not only because he's playing a very good character, but mostly because he is just genuinely better than you?

This isn't a yes or a no question, and people should really to stop this train of thought. Jupiter IS a really good player, and is unquestionably one of our best. There is no discussion on that. He could probably pick up Scorpion and mop the floor with the majority of us. Talking about how crazy Martian Manhunter is is in no way meant to detract from Jupiter, because it takes a player of his caliber to showcase what that character is capable of at such a high level.

Funny, because that's actually a very good call. Yea maybe the playstyles have some similarities and other differences, but face value comparison is valid.

Seth with strong health would probably be too overpowering compared to the rest of the cast, and him being a glass cannon is one of the main balances of his character. He wouldn't be "broken" so to say, he would just be too many notches better than the rest of the cast. Like MMH.

That was my thought as well. I've watched a lot of Footage of AE lately and it seems like Seth fights are an all or nothing affair. He is as likely to perfect you one round as he is to be perfected the next.

 

[Fromundaman]

Oh, this thread breaks down to Manhunter? Well, I'll just say this then: Despite the fact that we know how strong MMH is who knows how to fight the guy right now? I have played 1 set with a good/competent MMH, whether online or off, and I'm playing regularly. People still aren't blowing up some of his stuff, I mean, most the top eight was afraid to move when regular orbs were out. They sat there and let the pressure continue because they didn't know how to deal with orbs even though regular Orbs don't explode on contact so Jupiter was getting a lot of free nonsense. There's still no forward dashing/walking/MBing his teleports and his mixups are still catching people off guard because they're not familiar with his strings and what to look for. MMH is #1 in the game and not a lot of people know how to deal with him yet, once people are more comfortable with the matchup it's not gonna look nearly as free. Also, this is easily a case of "easier said than done" and I'm by no means an expert on the Martian character nor matchup but it's clear that MMH players are getting away with murder right now.

THIS!

I actually was in the crowd talking to people during top 8 and the number of people who didn't know a well timed dash gets you out of teleport and nets you a full punish was crazy.

Also I have yet to see anyone use a forward moving string to full combo punish normal orb cancels on block. 22>orb IS full combo punishable!





On a separate note, watching the top 8 it seemed Khaotic could have ended Jupiter's run really early if he hadn't dropped 1/2 of his combos/resets, which is a player mistake, not a matchup problem.



EDIT:

Ok but here's an issue, u need to play Jupiter

I body every MMH w ZOD but Jupiter lol, good luck w that

Isn't that an indication of moreso player skill than MU in that case? I mean other than the interactible combos, Jupiter isn't doing anything I haven't seen other MMH players do before; he just does it better.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

-snip-

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not :S

All I'm saying is why are we talking balance, when Jupiter is just a good player. It wouldn't matter what character he used.

 

[VenomX-90]

When someone makes a new thread posts about Tiers, MU's, Tech's etc. Top players at the bottom of the pic be like...Lmfao!

 

[Peckapowa]

This is probably the MOST MU based fighting game created.
Whether you consider that balance or not is up to you.

It makes tournaments way more entertaining though, that is for sure.

super street fighter 4, pre-arcade edition

 

[Zatoichi]

Why are you guys bringing up Street Fighter? Now I'm reminded how CAPCOM hates Vega with a passion with his gimmick Ultra Edition changes that don't help him in the neutral game.

UGH