Tech New Flash 50/50 Via RMSC and grab trap.

[THTB]

Why not aquaman?
I feel hes very good, hes water shield and trident is all ne needs, although some of his frame traps are interruptable they are still exceptional. i mean his chip is stupid and hes safe.

That stuff isn't really offensive, though. His continuous offense isn't really existent, and his high/low mixups generally are okay at best. Trident rush brings good chip damage, but it doesn't let him continuously apply pressure, and water shield in no way really opens more offensive doors for him given his surrounding toolset. Being good offensively means you have an easy time opening an opponent's defense up. Aquaman doesn't really do that (though, on the flip side, Aquaman is extremely difficult to open up).

Catwoman is dirty offensively, I agree @Rodrigue. Has issues out the ass? Yes. But still she knocks some characters down and it's good luck.

 

[THTB]

Doomsday has the top offense in the game imo. The character is literally just nonstop offense. I agree with Flash, BG, and Bane, but DD is just rush rush rush corner rape.

...How did I forget DD? Nvm, take out BG.

 

[SEV]

Good stuff but F2 SP can still be forward dashed out of, or even forward walked out of if your walk speed is fast enough to punish, but either way the better 50/50 would still probably be just to go for another F2 or D12 after the cancel anyways.

 

[ZOOM]

That stuff isn't really offensive, though. His continuous offense isn't really existent, and his high/low mixups generally are okay at best. Trident rush brings good chip damage, but it doesn't let him continuously apply pressure, and water shield in no way really opens more offensive doors for him given his surrounding toolset. Being good offensively means you have an easy time opening an opponent's defense up. Aquaman doesn't really do that (though, on the flip side, Aquaman is extremely difficult to open up).

Catwoman is dirty offensively, I agree @Rodrigue. Has issues out the ass? Yes. But still she knocks some characters down and it's good luck.

yeah CW is good
She jumps for free almost lmao

 

[ZOOM]

Good stuff but F2 SP can still be forward dashed out of, or even forward walked out of if your walk speed is fast enough to punish, but either way the better 50/50 would still probably be just to go for another F2 or D12 after the cancel anyways.

Yeah.. but if you F2 you are risking the fact that its not a frame trap.

i feel in gameplay its better to make a read if they will dash, and just do the F2D1 frame trap as you said.

 

[BoricuaHeat]

Love that someone made a thread about RMS but the most I have gotten is +6 on block after numerous tests. If you could give me an example on why exactly it's +8 I would greatly appreciate it.

I am positive that F2 RMS is +2 on block at the max, still a great option with numerous frame traps and gimmicks after getting them to respect it. However I would oblige people to hit confirm F2 between RMS and LK. F2 RMS on hit is +5 advantage if I recall correctly and allows for other mix ups such as going in for b22 pressure or 50/50, but it's always better to get a full hitconfirm into a combo.

Also for anyone getting ready to apply this to their gameplay remember. F2RMS and B22 RMS are the only real plus on block options that open up different mix ups for Flash. Every other RMS is either punishable or negative on block so watch out for that.

 

[ZOOM]

Love that someone made a thread about RMS but the most I have gotten is +6 on block after numerous tests. If you could give me an example on why exactly it's +8 I would greatly appreciate it.

I am positive that F2 RMS is +2 on block at the max, still a great option with numerous frame traps and gimmicks after getting them to respect it. However I would oblige people to hit confirm F2 between RMS and LK. F2 RMS on hit is +5 advantage if I recall correctly and allows for other mix ups such as going in for b22 pressure or 50/50, but it's always better to get a full hitconfirm into a combo.

Also for anyone getting ready to apply this to their gameplay remember. F2RMS and B22 RMS are the only real plus on block options that open up different mix ups for Flash. Every other RMS is either punishable or negative on block so watch out for that.

11 = +7
11 Sweep does not work

B22RMSC Sweep trades/hits lex luthor out of corscharge.
it is +8, possibly +9.


Also keep in mind that B22F3 RMSC is +6 and stuns so much gimmicks are plausable, it can become similar to Supermans F23 breath mix up, and is extremely deadly in the corner because it can be used to fake B22F3 SP MB into B22F3 RMSC B2 SP MB.

I've got RMSC down to the quickest point, these are max advantages:
B22RMSC +8-9
F2RMSC +3-7
B22F3 RMSC +6

 

[BoricuaHeat]

11 = +7
11 Sweep does not work

B22RMSC Sweep trades/hits lex luthor out of corscharge.
it is +8, possibly +9.


Also keep in mind that B22F3 RMSC is +6 and stuns so much gimmicks are plausable, it can become similar to Supermans F23 breath mix up, and is extremely deadly in the corner because it can be used to fake B22F3 SP MB into B22F3 RMSC B2 SP MB.

I've got RMSC down to the quickest point, these are max advantages:
B22RMSC +8-9
F2RMSC +3-7
B22F3 RMSC +6

I would love for these numbers to be right but they are not sadly, I'm positive on my claim and will go into detail.

Testing against corp charge means anything that leaves the character hitting Lex with +1 advantage and an attack that starts up at 6 frames will beat it out, in Flash's case his fastest most practical attack being 7 frames (d1) we would need +2 advantage. Clean B22 on block being +3 means our d1 beats corp charge every time but trades with d2 due to having 9 frames of start up. So with our sweep having 11 frames of start up we need to have +5 advantage to just trade with corp charge. So let's dive in to some of my tests for a better insight on why I show interest in proving some things.

I assume you mean 1,1 sweep gets punished as a frame trap versus corp charge, but my friend it actually trades with corp charge meaning 1,1 is +5 on block (for some reason it's listed as +7 tho, I assume my executions off).

With the same test you did with B22RMSC sweep hits Lex out of his corp charge consistently with the perfect execution but anything higher than 11 frames (sweep start up) get's wrecked, so we gotta have the frame data stand at +6.

B22F3RMSC can be just as effective in the corner but no so much mid screen compared to B22RMSC. Testing B22F3RMSC in the corner it traded every time with corp charge with sweep leaving the advantage at +5. Now that sounds great for Flash but the push back limits some options such as grab, 50/5o with d1d2 (d1 will whiff due to distance) and the chance of b22 whiffing on certain small characters due to distance (freaking hit box). Good thing you mentioned B22F3RMSC forgot to consider it in my reply due to it being a good option, however B22RMSC still outclasses it in almost every area of use. Still, should be learned.

F2RMSC is +2, tested versus Black Adam's d1 which is 6 frames versus a recorded Flash performing a perfect F2RMSC into d1.

What you can do with RMSC which is a bit of a gimmick but I find it outstandingly effective is d2RMSC. Usually they expect LK to make d2 safe, but couple that with sonic pound (12 frame gap) and RMSC (-5 on block) they are forced into a mind game of either trying to bait or punish sonic pound with a forward dash or anti air it, and d2 RMSC into continued pressure due to them expecting the sonic pound. Finally they deal expect all this but LK can also be used to mix things up for either punishing their attempts to retort the sonic pound and RMSC or as a frame trap on its own with delayed lighting kick.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Why are people not listing Wonder Woman as a top offensive character? >____>

 

[BoricuaHeat]

Why are people not listing Wonder Woman as a top offensive character? >____>

I ask myself this same question when people rate top 5 offensive characters in the game and see no mention of her.

 

[Fred Marvel]

i hate Flash so much and i still dont know what a frame trap is o_o

 

[BoricuaHeat]

i hate Flash so much and i still dont know what a frame trap is o_o

The linear definition of a frame trap is a type of mix up used to open up your opponent with the advantage a certain move might have while using that advantage to leave a certain gap to throw out another move of yours causing a counter hit if they try to escape with an attack that can't beat yours in speed during said gap. This gap could range from any number of frames depending on how you want to approach.

For example let's say you hit someone while their blocking with a move that starts up in 3 frames and leaves you at +1 advantage on block, you use the same move again leaving a gap of 2 frames, this means your opponent needs to use a move which start up in 2 frames or less to punish your frame trap attempt. Let's say he uses a 4 frame move to escape the frame trap, it didn't work and you just successfully performed a frame trap.

 

[xWildx]

MORE guessing in this game?

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I ask myself this same question when people rate top 5 offensive characters in the game and see no mention of her.

IKR lol, WoWo and Flash have the same offense, and IMO they both are the best offensive characters in the game, then Bane, Batgirl, Doomsday etc...

 

[BoricuaHeat]

MORE guessing in this game?

Yep.

 

[BoricuaHeat]

IKR lol, WoWo and Flash have the same offense, and IMO they both are the best offensive characters in the game, then Bane, Batgirl, Doomsday etc...

Bane I believe just stands a bit above everyone else considering what he can do on wake up alone, but Flash and Wonder Woman get that damage without having to worry about a cool down so a bit hard to consider for me. Agreed on Batgirl and Doomsday tho. I have not seen much of Batgirl besides random lucky hit into her vortex which just doesn't qualify to me as a legit offense (I am open to clarification on how good her offense can be tho). Doomsday on the other hand has a great offense only ranked lowed due to lack of damage compared to Flash and Wonder Woman, but that could just be me not knowing optimal combos.

Still find it annoying when no one lists Flash of all characters especially with all the recent showings in tournament.

 

[Fred Marvel]

The linear definition of a frame trap is a type of mix up used to open up your opponent with the advantage a certain move might have while using that advantage to leave a certain gap to throw out another move of yours causing a counter hit if they try to escape with an attack that can't beat yours in speed during said gap. This gap could range from any number of frames depending on how you want to approach.

For example let's say you hit someone while their blocking with a move that starts up in 3 frames and leaves you at +1 advantage on block, you use the same move again leaving a gap of 2 frames, this means your opponent needs to use a move which start up in 2 frames or less to punish your frame trap attempt. Let's say he uses a 4 frame move to escape the frame trap, it didn't work and you just successfully performed a frame trap.

so basically doing a move thats + then doing a move with quick startup after so get punished for trying to poke out?

 

[ZOOM]

I would love for these numbers to be right but they are not sadly, I'm positive on my claim and will go into detail.

Testing against corp charge means anything that leaves the character hitting Lex with +1 advantage and an attack that starts up at 6 frames will beat it out, in Flash's case his fastest most practical attack being 7 frames (d1) we would need +2 advantage. Clean B22 on block being +3 means our d1 beats corp charge every time but trades with d2 due to having 9 frames of start up. So with our sweep having 11 frames of start up we need to have +5 advantage to just trade with corp charge. So let's dive in to some of my tests for a better insight on why I show interest in proving some things.

I assume you mean 1,1 sweep gets punished as a frame trap versus corp charge, but my friend it actually trades with corp charge meaning 1,1 is +5 on block (for some reason it's listed as +7 tho, I assume my executions off).

With the same test you did with B22RMSC sweep hits Lex out of his corp charge consistently with the perfect execution but anything higher than 11 frames (sweep start up) get's wrecked, so we gotta have the frame data stand at +6.

B22F3RMSC can be just as effective in the corner but no so much mid screen compared to B22RMSC. Testing B22F3RMSC in the corner it traded every time with corp charge with sweep leaving the advantage at +5. Now that sounds great for Flash but the push back limits some options such as grab, 50/5o with d1d2 (d1 will whiff due to distance) and the chance of b22 whiffing on certain small characters due to distance (freaking hit box). Good thing you mentioned B22F3RMSC forgot to consider it in my reply due to it being a good option, however B22RMSC still outclasses it in almost every area of use. Still, should be learned.

F2RMSC is +2, tested versus Black Adam's d1 which is 6 frames versus a recorded Flash performing a perfect F2RMSC into d1.

What you can do with RMSC which is a bit of a gimmick but I find it outstandingly effective is d2RMSC. Usually they expect LK to make d2 safe, but couple that with sonic pound (12 frame gap) and RMSC (-5 on block) they are forced into a mind game of either trying to bait or punish sonic pound with a forward dash or anti air it, and d2 RMSC into continued pressure due to them expecting the sonic pound. Finally they deal expect all this but LK can also be used to mix things up for either punishing their attempts to retort the sonic pound and RMSC or as a frame trap on its own with delayed lighting kick.

Ill make a video on max advantage later today and some of my set ups
When I get back from work we will dive deeper.

 

[BoricuaHeat]

so basically doing a move thats + then doing a move with quick startup after so get punished for trying to poke out?

You are absolutely correct my friend, abuse this knowledge and go to town on people with frame traps.

@KHAOTIC ZOOM I would gladly enjoy the occasion to flesh out this tech to its full potential.

 

[ZOOM]

You are absolutely correct my friend, abuse this knowledge and go to town on people with frame traps.

@KHAOTIC ZOOM I would gladly enjoy the occasion to flesh out this tech to its full potential.

you were correct on F2 being +2 I did further testing, thank you for correcting the mistake.
I was right about something else though.
B22F3RMSC, check the video, you can go ahead and determine this data please.
Boricua, I am making my official flash tech thread, I have lots you might want to check it out. I'll tag you when I finish. it includes stuff, None of you have ever seen before, it completely breaks the flash, but as relevancy for this thread... look at this video and determine what you think it may be. Also, i see you have PSN. Want to get on PSN? we can hop in the lab and find things together. I actually have a meterless game , we just need the proper set up for it. so we can work together on some things.

 

[KHAOTIC_ZOOM]

@Krayzie

is it possible to move this thread into my official zoom tech thread? thanks.