Match-up Discussion Nightwing Match-Up Discussion (1.06 and on)

[Shaazzyam]

ok. mb pound. wait. pound when i land from the jump.

Basic meta.

I'm sorry that I knock you out of the air for like 5% and you can't just mindlessly throw air projectiles at me.

Ground pound vs quickfire chip/trade war is in your favor as well.

Right, I'll just wait for you to land after you j3 at me for another pound? The point is a lot of NW's usual options aren't options. DS can shut him down. Instant air shots kinda suck for NW.

Nightwing zones fine against DS
Everyone has something to blow up flip kick if they read it
option select wake ups has nothing to do with the matchup between these two

Option select WU make NW have to respect you on knockdown. Especially DS's. Flipkick is a shitty special. NW is going to have a harder time getting in when Ds has lifelead.

 

[Vagrant]

Lol nevermind. This is a complete waste of time.

DS wins 9-1 and any NW player that beats him is a a god.

 

[Crathen]

@Crathen
Care to share your thoughts about the ds MU? I want to play more games before giving my opinion.

It's not worse than a 5-5 , but if i have to give a slight advantage to anyone it would be DS.

Escrima zoning w ground sparks doesn't hold up well against DS fast counterzoning options as LGS and quickfire , they may trade favourly in NW favour but they're easy to jump and reset the zoning , DS can do LGS on block fullscreen and still trade w a reversal ground spark and can kinda sit on a lifelead on the last healthbar , wingdings are good if you read a gunshot but they're punishable when not MB , given how NW needs some meter to get the good upclose mixups going i've got no problem w him using bars to prevent getting punished for trying a read.

Staff zoning definately wins when you trade block reversals but just playing the ground pound guessing game on block you can get near him or start the chip war again , upclose it's a tossup on who gets started first but i'd give DS a slight edge when NW is in staff , because his mobility is so limited in staff and his jump arc is so low to the ground MB f3 works wonders vs him , j3 is good too as his best bet to AA that is to go for air to air or flying grayson.

DS frametraps like f3 and f23 work great vs his staff stance to get the 50 50s going or just more j3.

DS wakeup game handles NW oki much better than NW wakeups handles DS oki , especially in escrima , while he's in staff he can't jump over Spin so DS doesn't need to worry when to use Flip , NW is kinda forced to bait SS hard.

I'd have to play it a lot more to be sure about a # but for now i'd say imma play it safe and say 5-5 but i wouldn't say NO to a 6-4 DS ( or if ya like that 5.5-4.5 # , i try to avoid the .5 numbers )

 

[macro]

Lol nevermind. This is a complete waste of time.

DS wins 9-1 and any NW player that beats him is a a god.

Lets be honest here thoughs are just the things to make it a bad matchup. Here are the things that we have on him. Are prussure is great on death stroke
because of his slow start up on his moves. Also if you knock down death stroke at a range you can throw out ground pound and after that he has to jump and do air gunshots and that puts him in a bad spot or we could do MB ground spark and get in again.

 

[macro]

It's not worse than a 5-5 , but if i have to give a slight advantage to anyone it would be DS.

Escrima zoning w ground sparks doesn't hold up well against DS fast counterzoning options as LGS and quickfire , they may trade favourly in NW favour but they're easy to jump and reset the zoning , DS can do LGS on block fullscreen and still trade w a reversal ground spark and can kinda sit on a lifelead on the last healthbar , wingdings are good if you read a gunshot but they're punishable when not MB , given how NW needs some meter to get the good upclose mixups going i've got no problem w him using bars to prevent getting punished for trying a read.

Staff zoning definately wins when you trade block reversals but just playing the ground pound guessing game on block you can get near him or start the chip war again , upclose it's a tossup on who gets started first but i'd give DS a slight edge when NW is in staff , because his mobility is so limited in staff and his jump arc is so low to the ground MB f3 works wonders vs him , j3 is good too as his best bet to AA that is to go for air to air or flying grayson.

DS frametraps like f3 and f23 work great vs his staff stance to get the 50 50s going or just more j3.

DS wakeup game handles NW oki much better than NW wakeups handles DS oki , especially in escrima , while he's in staff he can't jump over Spin so DS doesn't need to worry when to use Flip , NW is kinda forced to bait SS hard.

I'd have to play it a lot more to be sure about a # but for now i'd say imma play it safe and say 5-5 but i wouldn't say NO to a 6-4 DS ( or if ya like that 5.5-4.5 # , i try to avoid the .5 numbers )

Thank you for posting this!

 

[Shaazzyam]

It's not worse than a 5-5 , but if i have to give a slight advantage to anyone it would be DS.

Escrima zoning w ground sparks doesn't hold up well against DS fast counterzoning options as LGS and quickfire , they may trade favourly in NW favour but they're easy to jump and reset the zoning , DS can do LGS on block fullscreen and still trade w a reversal ground spark and can kinda sit on a lifelead on the last healthbar , wingdings are good if you read a gunshot but they're punishable when not MB , given how NW needs some meter to get the good upclose mixups going i've got no problem w him using bars to prevent getting punished for trying a read.

Staff zoning definately wins when you trade block reversals but just playing the ground pound guessing game on block you can get near him or start the chip war again , upclose it's a tossup on who gets started first but i'd give DS a slight edge when NW is in staff , because his mobility is so limited in staff and his jump arc is so low to the ground MB f3 works wonders vs him , j3 is good too as his best bet to AA that is to go for air to air or flying grayson.

DS frametraps like f3 and f23 work great vs his staff stance to get the 50 50s going or just more j3.

DS wakeup game handles NW oki much better than NW wakeups handles DS oki , especially in escrima , while he's in staff he can't jump over Spin so DS doesn't need to worry when to use Flip , NW is kinda forced to bait SS hard.

I'd have to play it a lot more to be sure about a # but for now i'd say imma play it safe and say 5-5 but i wouldn't say NO to a 6-4 DS ( or if ya like that 5.5-4.5 # , i try to avoid the .5 numbers )

This is the correct answer. Too bad we can't connect.

 

[Sajam]

Regardless of what the number is, I think one of the best things DS has going for him here is the fact that NW isn't doing shit to his j3 or any kind of pressure he's trying. His jump ins make it hard for NW to try and comfortably play footsies, and his knockdown pressure is pretty strong against NW's weaker wakeups when in escrima.

Everything in the zoning battle is just a mind game between the players, but when the knockdown games get going DS has some pretty ok stuff that NW can't deal with. I think NW handles him well on knockdown too though, so it's not that bad, but you just have to be cautious about how you approach him.

It's an interesting MU, and they both have some good things going for them.

 

[AssassiN]

It's not worse than a 5-5 , but if i have to give a slight advantage to anyone it would be DS.

Escrima zoning w ground sparks doesn't hold up well against DS fast counterzoning options as LGS and quickfire , they may trade favourly in NW favour but they're easy to jump and reset the zoning , DS can do LGS on block fullscreen and still trade w a reversal ground spark and can kinda sit on a lifelead on the last healthbar , wingdings are good if you read a gunshot but they're punishable when not MB , given how NW needs some meter to get the good upclose mixups going i've got no problem w him using bars to prevent getting punished for trying a read.

Staff zoning definately wins when you trade block reversals but just playing the ground pound guessing game on block you can get near him or start the chip war again , upclose it's a tossup on who gets started first but i'd give DS a slight edge when NW is in staff , because his mobility is so limited in staff and his jump arc is so low to the ground MB f3 works wonders vs him , j3 is good too as his best bet to AA that is to go for air to air or flying grayson.

DS frametraps like f3 and f23 work great vs his staff stance to get the 50 50s going or just more j3.

DS wakeup game handles NW oki much better than NW wakeups handles DS oki , especially in escrima , while he's in staff he can't jump over Spin so DS doesn't need to worry when to use Flip , NW is kinda forced to bait SS hard.

I'd have to play it a lot more to be sure about a # but for now i'd say imma play it safe and say 5-5 but i wouldn't say NO to a 6-4 DS ( or if ya like that 5.5-4.5 # , i try to avoid the .5 numbers )

Seems about right, we'll play more soon.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

I'll go into my reasons:

Aquaman 5-5 - Not in NW favor. Aquaman has intractable control but NW has slightly better mobility on the ground IMO. NW pressure is better but Aqua can whiff punish better with FTD. Spacing in this match is key as both characters normals are great. Staff may win 6-4 but not when there are interactabes.

Bane 6-4 - NW may be one of the only characters that can interrupt pressure from Bane. The first 2 hits of 113 are the two fastest consecutive hits in the game. This means breaking his armor is fairly easy after any blocked special if he goes into another automatically. When he is in debuff you can chase him rather well with FG and pressure with 50/50. When he juices up again you gotta go back to escrima. Wing Ding is still very good in this MU unless he is on level 3.

Batgirl 5-5 - Of course she is annoying but his footsies give him the ability to keep her in his optimal range. Wing Dings are a bad idea and if your getting her towards the corner, staff is your friend. The more I think about it...the more I am realizing this may be in her favor slightly.

Batman 5-5 - Wing Ding is a great spacing tool that really makes batman choose when to come in. He has to come to you because in Escrima he gets outzoned. 7% vs 8% is the trade in NW favor. In Staff your in trouble unless its corner based but even then, I prefer to stay in escrima. If your style is back and forth zoning, please make sure you leave yourself opportunities to switch back to escrima if you lose the zoning advantage.

Ares 6-4 - Ares zoning is sub par and he gets beat in both stances. It could be worse than this IMO. His teleport, if well placed and timed, can help him avoid pounds and wing dings. Ground Spark Cancels can be good baits as well.

Cyborg 3-7 - IAFB

Black Adam 4-6 - No Flip kick setups make your pressure fairly linear. You have to rely on 50/50 setups and frame traps to open him up which can be difficult. It is easy to blow up his wakeup attacks which means that if you knock him down your in good shape...watch out for interactables and his zoning.

Catwoman 6-4 - After playing 16 Bit back after FR he helped me theory fight this a lot. d1 in staff is really good in this MU as well as jump 2. She cant get in for free and must approach cautiously. Escrima is a bad idea as he is free to her jump ins.

Deathstroke 6-4 - NW out zones him but they are even on footsies. The way I see this MU is based on Death stroke getting in somehow. Staff in b1 range is very scary for him as he MUST approach from the air. From the ground he can use f3 and mbf3, but NW can just as easy counter with his own mbb3/f3. It helps DS but not in a way that gives him advantage. NW has to be put in the corner in order to lose this MU imo.

Doomsday 6-4 - NW staff d1 like in the catwoman mu is very good. trait is a non issue while he is in staff. This MU comes down to your ability to keep him in that magic range

Flash 5-5 - Pure footsie match. Super fun to play and can really test each players skills without interactables playing a big factor.

Green Lantern 4-6 - His zoning and vortex are both on par with bat girl when his trait is active. Super tough but when NW knocks him down in escrima, Flip kick can really mess him up.

Green Arrow 7-3 - Arrow gets beat in both stances anywhere on the screen. very touch match up.

Harley 4-6 - I view this similar to the GL match up

Hawkgirl 3-7 - Catch me if you can style of play, can't counter poke, have to make hella reads to get damage.

Joker 6-4 (Infinite may change this to 5-5) - We have gone over this too much in the u thread already.

Killer Frost 6-4 - This MU I really want more exp in. My opinion could very well change. My view on this starts with Wing Dings and j3 in escrima. both can be major problems for KF. They do lots of damage and have great priority. Can you parry flip kick? If you cannot I view this as a problem too. Ground pound is also great with his instant jump normals in staff. j1 and j2 mixed with ground pound make for un parryable options that lead to good damage. It comes back to knowing the MU and making parry an options she is afraid to use.

Lex Luthor 7-3 - Out zoned fairly easily. Lex cannot approach safely either. tough for him to gather momentum.

Lobo 5-5 - Nuclear Shells are powerful against wing dings...he HAS to mb in order to not get punished. his dash makes him very mobile against your ground pound zoning however ground spark is still a good tool. Don't get caught in a combo...@gga fill pops

Martian ManHunter 6-4 (yes I said it) - @Sajam can explain this better

Nightwing 5-5

Raven 5-5 The most boring matchup ever. gp sc gp sc projectile blah blah blah. let the full screen mixups begin

Scorp 7-3 Staff kinda bodies him. d1 into full combo most everything he does. just don't let him kill you with 17 hellfires...lol

Shazam 7-3 NW doesn't really need to fear him. you out footsie him and can punish torpedo easy. His overhead launcher is punishable. Just recognize when your in command grab range.

Sinestro 3-7 just play the mu once against PTW or wound cowboy and you will see.

Soloman Grundy 6-4 You can run the entire match and win. Universal anti throw tactics work well and can lead to good damage

Superman 4-6 zoning can be a problem but only if you don't know how to approach. This is a patience game. Whomever is in the corner is going to lose so If you manage to do that you will be fine. The damage you take mid screen in the zoning game should be minimal till you get in.

WonderWoman 5-5 Staff for lasso and escrima for sheild. Fun MU to play but watch out for iadashes and iademi. Get good at punishing wakeups and don't wakeup against her.

Zatanna 4-6 Her zoning is really strong and with teleport she can do a good job of avoiding everything. get in and stay in

Zod 3-7 Play pig once and you will understand. He does better than some other characters but I think Zod is broken so maybe I'm not the right person to define this. Pig has broken me.

 

[Doombawkz]

Bane 6-4 - NW may be one of the only characters that can interrupt pressure from Bane. The first 2 hits of 113 are the two fastest consecutive hits in the game. This means breaking his armor is fairly easy after any blocked special if he goes into another automatically. When he is in debuff you can chase him rather well with FG and pressure with 50/50. When he juices up again you gotta go back to escrima. Wing Ding is still very good in this MU unless he is on level 3.

If you chase us with FG, doesn't that just open a window for us to d.2 and then combo our debuff off? Also while 113 is good, its not a deal breaker for us, namely because the actual mid-hitting part doesn't come out until the 11th frame, and Bane can MB VU most rebuttals as it is. Wing Ding is a bill against any Bane that knows how to block high, and we can VU on block for the punish. Its a 5-5 from what I'm understanding, nothing you listed makes up for the fact that we can stuff or punish every wake-up and abuse NW's lack of mobility/getting-in power causing a life-lead (something easily obtained) to be hard to make up for.

I frankly don't care because a 6-4/4-6 is still as winnable as a 5-5 long as you know what you're doing, but Its a peck bothersome when people assume they have some way to break armor and thus have an advantage over Bane. You still have twigs for arms.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

I got NW vs Bane 5-5, same with NW vs DS

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

If you chase us with FG, doesn't that just open a window for us to d.2 and then combo our debuff off? Also while 113 is good, its not a deal breaker for us, namely because the actual mid-hitting part doesn't come out until the 11th frame, and Bane can MB VU most rebuttals as it is. Wing Ding is a bill against any Bane that knows how to block high, and we can VU on block for the punish. Its a 5-5 from what I'm understanding, nothing you listed makes up for the fact that we can stuff or punish every wake-up and abuse NW's lack of mobility/getting-in power causing a life-lead (something easily obtained) to be hard to make up for.

I frankly don't care because a 6-4/4-6 is still as winnable as a 5-5 long as you know what you're doing, but Its a peck bothersome when people assume they have some way to break armor and thus have an advantage over Bane. You still have twigs for arms.

A peck bothersome? I mean don't get offended. Lol that's fine.

I have found it effective for me is all. Yes u can uppercut fg. Everyone can all the time. It doesn't take that away as an option.

 

[GuamoKun]

I think NW vs Zatanna is 4-6 like how @AK L0rdoftheFLY says...but against staffwing it might as well should be an instant win for Zatanna once she gets trait out.

@TheBoyBlunder and I ran that MU pretty extensively.

 

[Qwark28]

I wonder which Joker you've played that makes this 6 4 NW in your favor.

 

[Shaazzyam]

I wonder which Joker you've played that makes this 6 4 NW in your favor.

Quark pls no

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

smh.....

 

[Qwark28]

Well excuse me for asking what high lvl competition he's played in a particular matchup in which I have.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Well excuse me for asking what high lvl competition he's played in a particular matchup in which I have.

No one notable. Complete theory fighting on a couple of these

 

[LEGEND]

Complete theory fighting on a couple of these

Flash and DS?

as even mentioned on this page DS is either even or in his favor (having played this MU a shit ton i agree). Nw definitely doesn't out zone DS

as for Flash, idk why people keep saying its even or possibly in NW's favor. Flash gives zero fucks about his zoning and out footsies him and out damages him in either stance, im guessing people are fighting Flashes that don't understand how to fight staff (you're right tho, it is a really fun pure footsies match. But i'm confident Flash has the advantage overall).

its way easier to make NW wiff something and punish it that it is for NW to do that to Flash, and Flash gets much more damage off of it. Spacing a phased MB Sonic pound is also extremely easy vs Staff, and the threat of it checks NW's pokes, tho NW can stuff it on reaction

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

Flash and DS?

as even mentioned on this page DS is either even or in his favor (having played this MU a shit ton i agree). Nw definitely doesn't out zone DS

as for Flash, idk why people keep saying its even or possibly in NW's favor. Flash gives zero fucks about his zoning and out footsies him and out damages him in either stance, im guessing people are fighting Flashes that don't understand how to fight staff (you're right tho, it is a really fun pure footsies match. But i'm confident Flash has the advantage overall).

its way easier to make NW wiff something and punish it that it is for NW to do that to Flash, and Flash gets much more damage off of it. Spacing a phased MB Sonic pound is also extremely easy vs Staff, and the threat of it checks NW's pokes, tho NW can stuff it on reaction

We know Flash got crazy damage from all the 20 buffs he had, but you can't like NW doesn't have anything in staff that can't beat Flash.

1F1 outranges anything Flash has and it's + on block.

D2 in staff has good enough range to anti air or poke/interrupt any advancement from Flash.

Everything Flash does he has to risk going to Dick's D1 range.
That is where Nightwing is very comfortable at.
A MB Charge that's crouched blocked isn't hella positive I believe so it's not a real way to get in on staff NW. I'm sure there are ways to beat a raw sonic pound, that's not really dominating tech to beat staff NW.

Flash's B22 gets outpoked, NW's D1 beats Dash in D12. In general, Flash has to work harder to get to NW and NW doesn't have to stress it because most of his normals in staff out range Flash pretty easily.

It's not a match up NW has to zone Flash because he can dominate the mid range battle, and NW in Escrima isn't horrible either.

I think it's 5-5. I've played Khaotic Honeybee, NRS Friction, BoricuaHeat enough to know it's a 5-5.

Flash outdamages NW but that doesn't mean he wins the match up. If that was the case, Grundy would beat NW 6-4 or go 5-5 with him in which he doesn't.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Flash and DS?

as even mentioned on this page DS is either even or in his favor (having played this MU a shit ton i agree). Nw definitely doesn't out zone DS

as for Flash, idk why people keep saying its even or possibly in NW's favor. Flash gives zero fucks about his zoning and out footsies him and out damages him in either stance, im guessing people are fighting Flashes that don't understand how to fight staff (you're right tho, it is a really fun pure footsies match. But i'm confident Flash has the advantage overall)

I'm confident NW does out zone DS and I'm confident in the Flash MU. I don't want people to be butthurt about these numbers. This is how I feel going into the MU and it is solely my opinion and not concrete in any way. Any matches I have could easily change them. I will play harold tonight at Scraps and maybe I'll feel differently.

The DS MU is one that I never worry about. Not sure why and I've played a variety of different players here. I'd like to be shown differently. Once I knock DS down I can pressure on wake up for free also while in staff. It makes me feel like I always have control.

 

[LEGEND]

We know Flash got crazy damage from all the 20 buffs he had, but you can't like NW doesn't have anything in staff that can't beat Flash.

1F1 outranges anything Flash has and it's + on block.

D2 in staff has good enough range to anti air or poke/interrupt any advancement from Flash.

Everything Flash does he has to risk going to Dick's D1 range.
That is where Nightwing is very comfortable at.
A MB Charge that's crouched blocked isn't hella positive I believe so it's not a real way to get in on staff NW. I'm sure there are ways to beat a raw sonic pound, that's not really dominating tech to beat staff NW.

Flash's B22 gets outpoked, NW's D1 beats Dash in D12. In general, Flash has to work harder to get to NW and NW doesn't have to stress it because most of his normals in staff out range Flash pretty easily.

It's not a match up NW has to zone Flash because he can dominate the mid range battle, and NW in Escrima isn't horrible either.

I think it's 5-5. I've played Khaotic Honeybee, NRS Friction, BoricuaHeat enough to know it's a 5-5.

Flash outdamages NW but that doesn't mean he wins the match up. If that was the case, Grundy would beat NW 6-4 or go 5-5 with him in which he doesn't.

NW has safe ways to stop most of Grundy's options, Grundy has to spend 2 bars just to make up on damage when countering Nw's options. And Grundy doesn't get meter Very well in that MU. This isn't comparable

i don't see how a mix-up character loses to a non mix-up character when Flash has slightly better footsies and doesn't care about (punishes basically every attempt) NWs zoning.

Btw almost all of escrima's flip kick cross-ups don't work on flash, and get punished

I'm confident NW does out zone DS and I'm confident in the Flash MU. I don't want people to be butthurt about these numbers. This is how I feel going into the MU and it is solely my opinion and not concrete in any way. Any matches I have could easily change them. I will play harold tonight at Scraps and maybe I'll feel differently.

The DS MU is one that I never worry about. Not sure why and I've played a variety of different players here. I'd like to be shown differently. Once I knock DS down I can pressure on wake up for free also while in staff. It makes me feel like I always have control.

Nbd. I just don't see where you guys are coming from. Having played a bunch of really good NWs, i don't think i'm missing something when it comes to NW's zoning. Up close the fight is even, but DS doesn't really have to fight there unless he goes down on life


Numbers are whatever. I wouldn't feel strongly about it being labeled either way, i just know from my experience the points being made don't add up. I usually don't care to get into MU discussions but i have played these MUs alot and thought i'd chime in

 

[AssassiN]

I'm confident NW does out zone DS and I'm confident in the Flash MU. I don't want people to be butthurt about these numbers. This is how I feel going into the MU and it is solely my opinion and not concrete in any way. Any matches I have could easily change them. I will play harold tonight at Scraps and maybe I'll feel differently.

The DS MU is one that I never worry about. Not sure why and I've played a variety of different players here. I'd like to be shown differently. Once I knock DS down I can pressure on wake up for free also while in staff. It makes me feel like I always have control.

Sorry bro, NW doesn't.
At the beginning of the game we all thought NW did, but DS players that know the MU can easily regain zoning advantage.
NW's sparks and wing dings can be handy to use while working you're way in to get some damage, but by no means is it a way to control the pace.

11 might be the fastest 2 hitting-string in the game, it's so fast that the opponent cannot pushblock the first 1.
For any NW that didn't know, 113 punishes a traited Lex Charge. Start-up of 11 is around 14 frames I think.

 

[Dirtylova]

*grabs beer and catches up on the discussion*

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

NW has safe ways to stop most of Grundy's options, Grundy has to spend 2 bars just to make up on damage when countering Nw's options. And Grundy doesn't get meter Very well in that MU. This isn't comparable

i don't see how a mix-up character loses to a non mix-up character when Flash has slightly better footsies and doesn't care about (punishes basically every attempt) NWs zoning.

Btw almost all of escrima's flip kick cross-ups don't work on flash, and get punished

Nbd. I just don't see where you guys are coming from. Having played a bu

So play some Nightwings to find out. You act like Flash 7-3 NW. You went from saying Flash that Flash out footsies to NW to now say Flash has slightly better footsies. This is the way too inconsistent to understand what you're trying to say. I think the match up is an even 5-5.

Flipkick MB gets punished by what? Its 0 on block. You make no sense, you can't say "This gets punished" and end your statement on that. explain yourself or show footage. What are his unstoppable footsies that can't be out poked by Nightwing? B22? D12? all that gets poked out from any distance.

Are you on PSN? I'll play you to show you what I'm talking about. If not, then I'm sure one of the Xbox Nightwings can help you understand NW holds down the neutral game.