Match-up Discussion KILLER FROST - Official Community Match-Up Discussion

[16 Bit]

BTW I play Max as KF sometimes. I don't know the fine details of the MU though. What are KF throw immune moves and armor breaker? I can't think of any fast two hitters.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

I've already picked up a whip, sword and shield.

No tiara

 

[Doombawkz]

I think that the myth of KF vs. CW MU being in KF's favor has been busted. BTW, @Doombawkz, your sig is the funniest thing on TYM dude, I swear.

Pretty sure @GGA 16 Bit said its like what... 6-4 KF favor? Just having better footsies in slide and the whole benefit of projectile, people can't just walk back away from her.

 

[Mr. Mileena]

I've already picked up a whip, sword and shield.

Bye Felicia

 

[Doombawkz]

BTW I play Max as KF sometimes. I don't know the fine details of the MU though. What are KF throw immune moves and armor breaker? I can't think of any fast two hitters.

She doesn't have any throw immune special moves that she can use on wake-up, but I'm pretty sure her little jumpy kick thing (b.2 u.3 or something) is grab immune.

 

[xKhaoTik]

BTW I play Max as KF sometimes. I don't know the fine details of the MU though. What are KF throw immune moves and armor breaker? I can't think of any fast two hitters.

I ran it with grr all weekend so I think I can help.

Lvl 1&2 aren't so bad. Daggers are really really good during this time because it blows up all his armor. I also like to cancel standing 1 into mbf3 to beat his armor. Lvl 3 is crazy tho because it says fuck projectiles Lol, but canceling into mbf3 from a normal is still good.


Wake up slide goes under armored OH punch, which is pretty good. Most banes just don't give a fuck and just throw out all the armored specials, and she can parry all of that, except grab. So if a OH punch is blocked, most likely, they're gonna do it again or do DP, and she can parry that.


Idk what her throw evade is tho. If I'm scouting it, I just nj2 when It's coming Lol.

Her getting knocked down is a nightmare tho. D1 -> armored OH punch beats wake up slide, but if she's scouting that, she can block the d1 and parry the follow up. D2 grab is scary as well and beats a jump or a mistimed wake-up, but if she's scouting that, she can parry the d2. I believe DP beats back dash, jump and slide, but if she's scouting that, she can parry or punish either version on block.


It's a momentum based match. She goes to town on him when she has the momentum, especially on debuff, and he does the same thing right back to her when he gets the momentum.

I no longer think she wins this. 5-5 or 6-4 bane

 

[xKhaoTik]

No tiara

Lol Yes, tiara too.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Bye Felicia

Will you teach me magic?

 

[KH StarCharger]

Pretty sure @GGA 16 Bit said its like what... 6-4 KF favor? Just having better footsies in slide and the whole benefit of projectile, people can't just walk back away from her.

Why would I want to walk back away from KF as CW. I want to be in on her (at least that's my style anyways.) Slide can be scouted, baited, stuffed, whatever. IDK if i'd say better footsies as well. CW can compete with anyone on that front with just B3 alone.

 

[16 Bit]

I said KF most likely wins because the post slide guessing game is in her favor and slide regulates footsies and KF has a godlike d+2. I don't know for sure though because no one is grinding this mu offline.

 

[RiBBz22]

Why would I want to walk back away from KF as CW. I want to be in on her (at least that's my style anyways.) Slide can be scouted, baited, stuffed, whatever. IDK if i'd say better footsies as well. CW can compete with anyone on that front with just B3 alone.

The MU is definitely a bit harder online for Frost I think. Not saying online matters when talking MU's, but I think it can impact our views. Star your CW is very very good, and I feel like you play the MU very well. In this MU Frost has to play it somewhat defensive to guard against jump attack and other jump setups after knockdowns. IMO online almost always favors the offensive character since good defense (blocking, reacting, anti-air) is a little tougher.

I have always thought that KF wins the MU because Catwoman has to rely on ways to get in that are not safe or lead to guaranteed pressure. Well-spaced J2's are tough to D2, but you can always MB F3 them in a pinch which leads to about 40% and a meterless vortex setup. I don't personally mind using meter this way because Catwoman's wakeup game gives more strength to the meterless vortex than some other characters. At least with the new armor buff in the last patch CW players can get past KF's daggers which made it even harder for CW to get in previously. Dash is punished pretty hard by Frost, and in contrast Frost's best options are not punishable on block.

Like I said though I think you play the MU better than I do right now. Up until this point I hadn't had many issues with CW to break the MU down terribly far. I need to level up in it and like @GGA 16 Bit said I would like to try it offline to see if some aspects are different.

 

[KH StarCharger]

The MU is definitely a bit harder online for Frost I think. Not saying online matters when talking MU's, but I think it can impact our views. Star your CW is very very good, and I feel like you play the MU very well. In this MU Frost has to play it somewhat defensive to guard against jump attack and other jump setups after knockdowns. IMO online almost always favors the offensive character since good defense (blocking, reacting, anti-air) is a little tougher.

I have always thought that KF wins the MU because Catwoman has to rely on ways to get in that are not safe or lead to guaranteed pressure. Well-spaced J2's are tough to D2, but you can always MB F3 them in a pinch which leads to about 40% and a meterless vortex setup. I don't personally mind using meter this way because Catwoman's wakeup game gives more strength to the meterless vortex than some other characters. At least with the new armor buff in the last patch CW players can get past KF's daggers which made it even harder for CW to get in previously. Dash is punished pretty hard by Frost, and in contrast Frost's best options are not punishable on block.

Like I said though I think you play the MU better than I do right now. Up until this point I hadn't had many issues with CW to break the MU down terribly far. I need to level up in it and like @GGA 16 Bit said I would like to try it offline to see if some aspects are different.

Pre-patch, this MU was undoubtedly in KF's favor. Post patch, however, has closed the gap considerably enough for CW players to more than hold their own. Overall, I've had a ton of MU exp on and offline vs KF and I still stand firm on my view of it not being in KF's favor by any definitive margin (Because of @KH Scar and MyGod). Her options are very easy to scout, bait, and punish like the MB f3 for example, you got hung out to dry when that meter was needed late in a game where a couple of them got blocked. Agreed that Online exp should be taken with a grain of salt, however that's always where people get a general idea (or at least foundation) of what to expect from each character. Offline at tournies really reflects this as well due to the online warriors dominating top 8's right now. So in a couple of senses, that argument is thrown out the window but I digress. A smart CW can easily take the majority of games from any KF in any setting.

 

[RiBBz22]

Pre-patch, this MU was undoubtedly in KF's favor. Post patch, however, has closed the gap considerably enough for CW players to more than hold their own. Overall, I've had a ton of MU exp on and offline vs KF and I still stand firm on my view of it not being in KF's favor by any definitive margin (Because of @KH Scar and MyGod). Her options are very easy to scout, bait, and punish like the MB f3 for example, you got hung out to dry when that meter was needed late in a game where a couple of them got blocked. Agreed that Online exp should be taken with a grain of salt, however that's always where people get a general idea (or at least foundation) of what to expect from each character. Offline at tournies really reflects this as well due to the online warriors dominating top 8's right now. So in a couple of senses, that argument is thrown out the window but I digress. A smart CW can easily take the majority of games from any KF in any setting.

I am not saying online isn't great for training and being able to get experience against other people/characters. I am saying it can influence matchups more one-sided and not equally in some cases. That is my point.

 

[@MylesWright_]

Killer Frost excels in zoning and dash in 50/50s online because very few people can do anything about it which explains why everyone was led to believe she was actually good. Catwoman has no advantage over Killer Frost online

 

[RiBBz22]

Killer Frost excels in zoning and dash in 50/50s online because very few people can do anything about it which explains why everyone was led to believe she was actually good. Catwoman has no advantage over Killer Frost online

Disagree with everything. Ignoring dash recovery is an online tactic that helps every character. Everyone with a brain should know if you do that it is taking a big risk so that is not what "makes her good". Like I said I think online in general favors the offensive player since defensive options are more difficult online. Not saying it makes any difference in the MU though, tbh it is just more of a natural advantage of online fighting games in general.

 

[Rickyraws]

I said KF most likely wins because the post slide guessing game is in her favor and slide regulates footsies and KF has a godlike d+2. I don't know for sure though because no one is grinding this mu offline.

Few other quirks:
Super will beat out level 3 raging charge no questions asked from full screen.
Both versions of the venom uppercut are punishable, nothing new there, and if they're armored special happy at level 3 then you can utilize the parry if they see you try to punish/ whiff punish the uppercut.
Essentially Bane doesn't want to use charge since it's not worth the risk no matter what the venom level, unless they know it'll hit or chip.
Bane's d1 into double punch is parryable, but the thing is some Banes do d1 d1 double punch either intentionally, or due to the "d1xxspecial effect". You can parry d1 double punch AND mbf3 d1 d1 double punch. It's hard to play Banes offline, but if you do you'll notice some of them have interesting habits due to his overall design. They aren't doing anything you haven't seen before, but they have a rhythm, more so than other characters. Hard to explain. I've played Grr as well. Some say he differs from Max in the sense that he never command grabs and throws out YOLO specials. That doesn't tell the whole story and I can actually differentiate every single good Bane I've played, but can't say the same for other characters.
The d2 command grab nonsense can be parried on a read, and sometimes a wake up slide will cause command grab to whiff even at level 3 venom. Can't ever bank on that though.
Bane's large hitbox and floaty jump make him susceptible to daggers, and chucking daggers full screen when he's on anything other than level 3 will break the armor (obviously) and for some Banes, cause them to level 3 up to gain projectile immunity. If you are mindlessly chucking daggers you can be caught jumping by a level 3 charge due to slight recovery on daggers, but other than that, if you get them to level 3 up and they charge, you can jump over air dash and punish, and they'll have spent some time on their venom while being far away. If they simply level 3'd because you were locking them down, welcome to the slow tick to debuff. Now the match sways again.
Bane's hitbox again, leads to multiple up 3/ slightly modified combos to add a few seconds to the time drain. Seems minuscule, but I've played a lot of Banes and it helps because a good Bane is ALWAYS monitoring and regulating his venom use accordingly- why not play to that strength of theirs?

These are, IMO small things in the grand scheme of things. But altogether, they lead me to believe if there's any favoring in the MU it's gonna be for Frost. Whenever it doesn't seem that way, we have to remember it's Bane, not the MU. While it WILL happen, we shouldn't let him get a knockdown or he'll have opened pandora's box

 

[@MylesWright_]

Few other quirks:
Super will beat out level 3 raging charge no questions asked from full screen.
Both versions of the venom uppercut are punishable, nothing new there, and if they're armored special happy at level 3 then you can utilize the parry if they see you try to punish/ whiff punish the uppercut.
Essentially Bane doesn't want to use charge since it's not worth the risk no matter what the venom level, unless they know it'll hit or chip.
Bane's d1 into double punch is parryable, but the thing is some Banes do d1 d1 double punch either intentionally, or due to the "d1xxspecial effect". You can parry d1 double punch AND mbf3 d1 d1 double punch. It's hard to play Banes offline, but if you do you'll notice some of them have interesting habits due to his overall design. They aren't doing anything you haven't seen before, but they have a rhythm, more so than other characters. Hard to explain. I've played Grr as well. Some say he differs from Max in the sense that he never command grabs and throws out YOLO specials. That doesn't tell the whole story and I can actually differentiate every single good Bane I've played, but can't say the same for other characters.
The d2 command grab nonsense can be parried on a read, and sometimes a wake up slide will cause command grab to whiff even at level 3 venom. Can't ever bank on that though.
Bane's large hitbox and floaty jump make him susceptible to daggers, and chucking daggers full screen when he's on anything other than level 3 will break the armor (obviously) and for some Banes, cause them to level 3 up to gain projectile immunity. If you are mindlessly chucking daggers you can be caught jumping by a level 3 charge due to slight recovery on daggers, but other than that, if you get them to level 3 up and they charge, you can jump over air dash and punish, and they'll have spent some time on their venom while being far away. If they simply level 3'd because you were locking them down, welcome to the slow tick to debuff. Now the match sways again.
Bane's hitbox again, leads to multiple up 3/ slightly modified combos to add a few seconds to the time drain. Seems minuscule, but I've played a lot of Banes and it helps because a good Bane is ALWAYS monitoring and regulating his venom use accordingly- why not play to that strength of theirs?

These are, IMO small things in the grand scheme of things. But altogether, they lead me to believe if there's any favoring in the MU it's gonna be for Frost. Whenever it doesn't seem that way, we have to remember it's Bane, not the MU. While it WILL happen, we shouldn't let him get a knockdown or he'll have opened pandora's box

Killer Frost forums at it's finest. Thank you giving us an in-depth analysis on how Killer Frost can parry on a read, mb in-between some Bane blockstrings and punish an unsafe venom uppercut

 

[Rickyraws]

Killer Frost forums at it's finest. Thank you giving us an in-depth analysis on how Killer Frost can parry on a read, mb in-between some Bane blockstrings and punish an unsafe venom uppercut

No prob. Always glad to give my input

A thing I forgot to mention is that she beats him due to big damage on debuff.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Cyborg man. Idk, it could just be @Relaxedstate outplaying me, but this MU is tough all of a sudden. The zoning is way too strong; jumping is out of question, sliding is an answer for iaBlasts but a ground blast will beat it clean, mb air blast is ridiculous, daggers can help but will traelde a majority of the time and the missile keeps her in check. She wrecks him upclose tho but getting in is the tough part. She definitely doesn't win the MU.

 

[Rickyraws]

Cyborg man. Idk, it could just be @Relaxedstate outplaying me, but this MU is tough all of a sudden. The zoning is way too strong; jumping is out of question, sliding is an answer for iaBlasts but a ground blast will beat it clean, mb air blast is ridiculous, daggers can help but will traelde a majority of the time and the missile keeps her in check. She wrecks him upclose tho but getting in is the tough part. She definitely doesn't win the MU.

Hmmm. This is interesting...
@Relaxedstate it's been quite some time. Let's run some sets tonight.

There being so few Cyborgs I can see how this MU may not be fully fleshed out, but as of right now I'm convinced she wins.

 

[Relaxedstate]

Hmmm. This is interesting...
@Relaxedstate it's been quite some time. Let's run some sets tonight.

There being so few Cyborgs I can see how this MU may not be fully fleshed out, but as of right now I'm convinced she wins.

Sorry was only on for a little tonight.

I had this MU down to a science a few weeks ago. There is nothing KF can do...even the lowest iafb will hit KF out of slide startup so she cant even rely on that to get in. Cyborg can also safely jumpback 2,3to blowup slide/cancel into fireball if you late slide or don't slide
Daggers and iceberg are ineffective unless you have the life lead. Once she starts respecting iafb (which she has to due to favorable trades) she starts eating ground chip, and Misslle set-up become a real threat. One wrong dash or slide and its a free B3 combo.

HOWEVER

Cyborgs pushblock nerf is HUGE in this MU. no longer can he put missles on screen and pushblock her slide into them, whether from wakeup or offense. It suck.

Before I was even considering 7-3 Cyborg...but now I have no idea...

This nerf fucked over Cyborg so hard in so many MUs...

 

[RiBBz22]

Sorry was only on for a little tonight.

I had this MU down to a science a few weeks ago. There is nothing KF can do...even the lowest iafb will hit KF out of slide startup so she cant even rely on that to get in. Cyborg can also safely jumpback 2,3to blowup slide/cancel into fireball if you late slide or don't slide
Daggers and iceberg are ineffective unless you have the life lead. Once she starts respecting iafb (which she has to due to favorable trades) she starts eating ground chip, and Misslle set-up become a real threat. One wrong dash or slide and its a free B3 combo.

HOWEVER

Cyborgs pushblock nerf is HUGE in this MU. no longer can he put missles on screen and pushblock her slide into them, whether from wakeup or offense. It suck.

Before I was even considering 7-3 Cyborg...but now I have no idea...

This nerf fucked over Cyborg so hard in so many MUs...

Up close KF does very well against Cyborg, but yeah getting in against a good one is a chore...very annoying for most of the reasons listed. Nothing more annoying than basically having to walk your way in...

After playing a limited amount of p2w's Cyborg, he really understands how to zone her well so the match could be overall in his favor. Definitely not a 3-7 though, that is just @Relaxedstate feelin' himself . 5-5 or 4-6, IMO and def not in KF's favor. I play Batgirl in this matchup and have for some time.

 

[Cabronium]

I said KF most likely wins because the post slide guessing game is in her favor and slide regulates footsies and KF has a godlike d+2. I don't know for sure though because no one is grinding this mu offline.

Can catwoman stuff wake up slide?

 

[Madog32]

Can catwoman stuff wake up slide?

I bet she can jump back with J2 or J3 and catch wakeup slides. Not sure if she has any pressure attacks on the ground with startup armor that would catch you other than MBF3 (I believe you slide under MBB3 more often than not, from that close)

 

[Sultan]

I really feel that Cyborg is one of those seriously stage dependent match-ups. I agree that it's 4-6 territory, but on some stages in could be as bad as 3-7.