Why are Injustice players so bad at whiff punishing?

[Big Pampering]

Oh yeah Wonder Woman has some great stuff. But can you name a character that cant really whiff punish? I mean they may not be superman but I think everyone has something.

for example killer frost is a top tier character but I dont feel like she really has anything to properly whiff punish. yes she has the slide but its not fast enough to whiff punish a lot of things while the characters I mentioned are fast enough to whiff punish the moves with somewhat better recovery. But even if you compare the characters I mentioned before they dont have whiff punishers as good as in other games like mk and sf. I dont know if you play sf but if you try to whiff something in mk9, you will get blown up by a kitana 21, kunglao 21/24, cage f3/b3, kabal f32/f4, rain standing 4, smoke b2, raiden f2, liu kang b3 and so on.

in street fighter you dont have breakers and against characters like sakura, ryu, fei long, yun, seth you could lose half or over half life into a vortex if you whiff a normal.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

There are a lot of things that are not able to be safely/reliaby whiff punished on reaction by a lot of the cast, just by virtue of the way the game is designed.

Well if you are whiff punishing, you most likely baited out the whiff, no? so reactions shouldnt be that much of an issue since you should be looking for the whiff. I understand though that it is quite difficult in this game though, I def agree. But if full strings are whiff punishing thats on the players, not the game I think. And that was the OP's point. Obviously if they whiff like a d1 they are fairly safe unless it was baited.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Well if you are whiff punishing, you most likely baited out the whiff, no? so reactions shouldnt be that much of an issue since you should be looking for the whiff. I understand though that it is quite difficult in this game though, I def agree. But if full strings are whiff punishing thats on the players, not the game I think. And that was the OP's point. Obviously if they whiff like a d1 they are fairly safe unless it was baited.

It's not about reactions -- it's about the tools to use on reaction. You need a move that is long-range enough for you to be safely out of range of the whiffed move's active frames yet still hit your opponent, and it has to come out quickly enough to hit them before they can recover/block. Not everyone has those tools.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

for example killer frost is a top tier character but I dont feel like she really has anything to properly whiff punish. yes she has the slide but its not fast enough to whiff punish a lot of things while the characters I mentioned are fast enough to whiff punish the moves with somewhat better recovery. But even if you compare the characters I mentioned before they dont have whiff punishers as good as in other games like mk and sf. I dont know if you play sf but if you try to whiff something in mk9, you will get blown up by a kitana 21, kunglao 21/24, cage f3/b3, kabal f32/f4, rain standing 4, smoke b2, raiden f2, liu kang b3 and so on.

in street fighter you dont have breakers and against characters like sakura, ryu, fei long, yun, seth you could lose half or over half life into a vortex if you whiff a normal.

I follow street fighter but dont play. And Killer Frost Slide should be fast enough for strings and specials... probably not a poke. And arent the pokes in sf really fast as far as recovery? I mean the normals are faster as well on startup, but if someone whiffs a lp its fast. And I know whiffed d3s arent being punished on reaction in mk. Same stuff in injustice, a d1 obviously is really hard to punish but full strings (which are commonly used) should be whiff punishable.

 

[Insuperable]

You don't need to whiff punish to dominate in Injustice

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

It's not about reactions -- it's about the tools to use on reaction. You need a move that is long-range enough for you to be safely out of range of the whiffed move yet hit your opponent, and it has to come out fast enough to hit them before they can recover/block. Not everyone has those tools.

Who honestly doesn't? I know there are a few, but most can at least do something as far as I can tell. Btw I don't want anyone to think I am just trying to be difficult or whatever, I am just discussing.

 

[Big Pampering]

I follow street fighter but dont play. And Killer Frost Slide should be fast enough for strings and specials... probably not a poke. And arent the pokes in sf really fast as far as recovery? I mean the normals are faster as well on startup, but if someone whiffs a lp its fast. And I know whiffed d3s arent being punished on reaction in mk. Same stuff in injustice, a d1 obviously is really hard to punish but full strings (which are commonly used) should be whiff punishable.

well in street fighter pokes actually get whiffed punished because normals/pokes can be as fast a 3 frames add to that street fighter doesnt have 3d hitboxes so you wont get away with whiffing a poke just because your opponent doesnt have a mid. traditional footsies are even more in street fighter than in mk.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Who honestly doesn't? I know there are a few, but most can at least do something as far as I can tell. Btw I don't want anyone to think I am just trying to be difficult or whatever, I am just discussing.

Just go through the cast and see who doesn't have a short-frames long/med range advancing or auto-tracking normal or special. Remember, you can't dash up and cancel, so the move has to hit from far enough away for you to not get hit before you use it.

I'll give you one example:

Green Arrow
15-frame standing 3 (too short to be used to whiff punish a lot of things, and not extremely fast either)
19-frame sweep (too slow, and not that great of a punish)
22-frame stinger (too slow for many things)
22-frame arrows (too slow, and you won't get much from landing one anyway)

vs.

Green Lantern
9-frame b3 (short-frame long-range advancing normal with lowered hurtbox)
Lantern's Might (10-frame 60% screen special with gigantic hitbox)

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

well in street fighter pokes actually get whiffed punished because normals/pokes can be as fast a 3 frames add to that street fighter doesnt have 3d hitboxes so you wont get away with whiffing a poke just because your opponent doesnt have a mid. traditional footsies are even more in street fighter than in mk.

The hitbox thing makes sense, that is a good point. And yeah street fighter is kind of the definition for traditional footsies haha.

 

[Laos_boy]

I made a thread on whiff punishing. No one really noticed it. But it covers nearly everyone's best whiff punisher.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Just go through the cast and see who doesn't have a short-frames long/med range advancing or auto-tracking normal or special. Remember, you can't dash up and cancel, so the move has to hit from far enough away for you to not get hit before you use it.

Aquaman - b1, FTD
Ares - I honestly dont know on this one haha.
Bane - Double punch is okay, probably not great.
Batgirl - b1, teleport is good for long range
Batman - relies on trait for sure
Black Adam - b2, lighting hands
Catwoman- whip is pretty fast, catdash situationally
Cyborg - projectile maybe? idk
Deathstroke- quick shots
Doomsday- shoulder charge
Flash- headbutt
Green Arrow- hmmm maybe a standing arrow but thats like nothing
GL - lift, b1
Harley- gunshot i guess
Hawkgirl- mace charge? I dont know her well enough tbh but that is probably way too slow
Joker- gunshot, crowbar
Killer Frost- slide
Lex- Charge
Lobo- hook charge
Martian Manhunter- trait 3
Nightwing- b2 escrima, 1 in staff
Raven - soul crush
Scorpion - ummm lol
Shazam - torpedo, b2
Sinestro - fear blast, b1
grundy - not many options
superman - f2
WoWo - b2 and b1 in lasso, shield bash and toss in SS
Zatanna- maybe her projectile, dont know much about her
Zod- Charge

I mean most of the cast have some pretty obvious options. Not as good as what you would get in SF or Mk9 but most of the cast have things off of the top of the head, and the rest there has to be something, or worst case they take a block string or mixup.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I made a thread on whiff punishing. No one really noticed it. But it covers nearly everyone's best whiff punisher.

I remember that! I will have to look at it again.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

That's not a whiff punish.

It is in this game noob. Once you realize that you will get better.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I mean most of the cast have some pretty obvious options. Not as good as what you would get in SF or Mk9 but most of the cast have things off of the top of the head, and the rest there has to be something, or worst case they take a block string or mixup.

Half of everything on that list is either situational, slow, or says "not that great".. For example Catwoman's straight whip is a 19-frame move. You can't act as if that's a reliable punisher to whiffed normals (or even a good deal of specials) on reaction. That's the difference between copy/pasting stuff on the forums and knowing what is going to work against certain moves in-game.

 

[Protagonist_1]

Pretty interesting and constructive conversation about whiff punishing going on. Good to see, a lot better than some of other threads I read.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Half of everything on that list is either situational, slow, or says "not that great".. For example Catwoman's straight whip is a 19-frame move. You can't act as if that's a reliable punisher to whiffed normals (or even a good deal of specials) on reaction. That's the difference between copy/pasting stuff on the forums and knowing what is going to work against certain moves in-game.

I dont understand what you mean by situational. isnt everything? It is unreasonable to want to be able to punish everything with the same thing. On speed and all, yeah, it was off the top of my head, I admit that I didn't put much thought into it. Maybe you are right and there is nothing there, i was just throwing out possibilities.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Pretty interesting and constructive conversation about whiff punishing going on. Good to see, a lot better than some of other threads I read.

Yeah like I said, not trying to argue, just trying to discuss

 

[CrimsonShadow]

It is in this game noob. Once you realize that you will get better.

I play a character than can actually whiff punish reliably.

I dont understand what you mean by situational. isnt everything?

Situational meaning that it's not a reliable option for most/many situations. It's not as if every character has multiple options that work well in varied set of circumstances. A bunch of characters can only whiff punish well in infrequent circumstances or barely at all. For example, what are Green Arrow's other options?

 

[Vulcan Hades]

starting a blockstring is not a whiff punish.

A whiff punish is simply punishing a whiff. And a blockstring inflicts chip damage and can put you at +frames and lead to 50/50. Injustice players need to change their conception of what whiff punishing is. If you just think about walkspeed and poke range then you will really suck at this game, because you'll keep missing golden opportunities to start pressure, close distance or gain position advantage.

If you dash in they have already recovered from their whiff, jumping in can just be anti aired by lets say aquaman unless they are whiffing something with 50 frames of recovery or so

But you have to commit to strings you can't hit confirm most of them. Which means people will whiff their "50f BnB string" a lot and you need to be ready to take advantage of that whiff even when you are not in range. Even if you can't land a hit in time, dashing, jumping in or throwing a special/interactable is punishing a whiff.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

A whiff punish is simply punishing a whiff. And a blockstring inflicts chip damage and can put you at +frames and lead to 50/50. Injustice players need to change their conception of what whiff punishing is.

Chip damage is negligible in most cases in this game, and neither a blockstring nor being at + frames is a 'punish'. That's called 'pressure'. Two different things.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Chip damage is negligible in most cases in this game, and neither a blockstring nor being at + frames is a 'punish'. That's called 'pressure'. Two different things.

You really don't get the point of this thread do you.

The point is not every character has GL's b3 and you have to be creative to whiff punish in Injustice. If you keep thinking you need good walk speed or Superman's f23 to whiff punish you will struggle at midrange. Don't take it from me just watch good players like Theo and watch how they react to big whiffs.

 

[Qwark28]

Aquaman - b1, FTD
Ares - I honestly dont know on this one haha.
Bane - Double punch is okay, probably not great.
Batgirl - b1, teleport is good for long range
Batman - relies on trait for sure
Black Adam - b2, lighting hands
Catwoman- whip is pretty fast, catdash situationally
Cyborg - projectile maybe? idk
Deathstroke- quick shots
Doomsday- shoulder charge
Flash- headbutt
Green Arrow- hmmm maybe a standing arrow but thats like nothing
GL - lift, b1
Harley- gunshot i guess
Hawkgirl- mace charge? I dont know her well enough tbh but that is probably way too slow
Joker- gunshot, crowbar
Killer Frost- slide
Lex- Charge
Lobo- hook charge
Martian Manhunter- trait 3
Nightwing- b2 escrima, 1 in staff
Raven - soul crush
Scorpion - ummm lol
Shazam - torpedo, b2
Sinestro - fear blast, b1
grundy - not many options
superman - f2
WoWo - b2 and b1 in lasso, shield bash and toss in SS
Zatanna- maybe her projectile, dont know much about her
Zod- Charge

I mean most of the cast have some pretty obvious options. Not as good as what you would get in SF or Mk9 but most of the cast have things off of the top of the head, and the rest there has to be something, or worst case they take a block string or mixup.

15f gunshot and 23f crowbar as whiff punishers? wtf?

and shazams slow ass torpedo to whiff punish?

 

[Big Pampering]

You really don't get the point of this thread do you. Someone ban this troll because he isn't contributing anything lol.

The point is not every character has GL's b3 and you have to be creative to whiff punish in Injustice. If you keep thinking you need good walk speed or Superman's f23 to whiff punish you will struggle at midrange. Don't take it from me just watch good players like Theo and watch how they react to big whiffs.

yeah go tell crimsonshadow to go ban himself!!!... btw do you know what punish means?

 

[Zoidberg747]

Half of everything on that list is either situational, slow, or says "not that great".. For example Catwoman's straight whip is a 19-frame move. You can't act as if that's a reliable punisher to whiffed normals (or even a good deal of specials) on reaction. That's the difference between copy/pasting stuff on the forums and knowing what is going to work against certain moves in-game.

Even if it doesnt punish it keeps the opponent in check. Sometimes thats better than nothing. Catwoman uses b3 to whiff punish most of the time IIRC

 

[The PantyChrist]

Yeah I'd take those positive frames over nothing