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"You're Fired!" -- Joker General Discussion Thread

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Depends on the character; some get hit by teeth if they attempt to punish.

That said you don't do this the first time. First few times flower shuts down everything and gives you a full combo, but is easy to block and if blocked pretty much kills your pressure.
After taking a full combo for attempting to move, they will respect it and just attempt to block, which is when crowbar starts being useful. They jump when they see/react to crowbar, but by then it is often too late or they eat teeth on landing, which if they do it's also a full combo since crowbar misses but you have time to combo off of teeth (not sure if you can B3 though).
so flower combos or are they just not blocking?

why ever block teeth when you can just backdash? 21 teeth flower isnt a frametrap, it can be poked to trade with teeth, it can be mb b3d for full combo, crowbar can also be jumped

i dont understand why youd take the crowbar for 12% which can be mb b3d, jumped, poked, backdashed for 12% when jumping is completely safe
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
I think we're misunderstanding each other.

IDK the exact frame data, but I can tell you that when I do 21 (1st hit)>teeth then flower, I always trade flower with pokes, and flower combos into teeth in that situation (And a few others actually. Far teeth>flower is actually a decent anti-approach) so it's a HUGE win for us.
MB B3 actually beats flower, but then gets hit by teeth, so we actually win out on the damage trade there unless it's someone like Catwoman who also avoids teeth when doing B3.
Most backdashes (Not all though, for example won't catch Zod with this) will get caught by both crowbar and flower at this range.
Crowbar can in fact be jumped, but as I said, with this timing if they jump the crowbar teeth hit right as they land but before they hit the ground, allowing you a full combo punish even after whiffing crowbar.



I am not saying this is a game breaking setup, but it is very strong, and again, when about 2-3 characters lengths from the corner the only way out is to try to poke before crowbar hits, which for many characters means they get hit by teeth in the corner, which is really bad for them.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I think we're misunderstanding each other.

IDK the exact frame data, but I can tell you that when I do 21 (1st hit)>teeth then flower, I always trade flower with pokes, and flower combos into teeth in that situation (And a few others actually. Far teeth>flower is actually a decent anti-approach) so it's a HUGE win for us.
MB B3 actually beats flower, but then gets hit by teeth, so we actually win out on the damage trade there unless it's someone like Catwoman who also avoids teeth when doing B3.
Most backdashes (Not all though, for example won't catch Zod with this) will get caught by both crowbar and flower at this range.
Crowbar can in fact be jumped, but as I said, with this timing if they jump the crowbar teeth hit right as they land but before they hit the ground, allowing you a full combo punish even after whiffing crowbar.



I am not saying this is a game breaking setup, but it is very strong, and again, when about 2-3 characters lengths from the corner the only way out is to try to poke before crowbar hits, which for many characters means they get hit by teeth in the corner, which is really bad for them.
21 first hit into teeth is -2, it should not be trading with pokes offline

mb b3 then still gets 16% damage, same as we do when with a jump they couldve completely wasted the meter while giving us a full combo punish into 55% IIRC, they can also mb b3 dash cancel forward which is what ppl should always be doing during joker setups which you can mb b3 out of.

so crowbar does not even catch backdashes unless theyre shit, gives 12% can be jumped ( neutral, back ) or backdashed into a punish on the -fatality whiffed crowbar and mb f3 dash forward combos you in every single setup unless you jump

how are teeth catching them? you do 21 mid and far teeth and they can very easily jump to full combo you, teeth are nowhere near their landing point unless its close teeth which dont set up the unblockable.

meanwhile, 21 far teeth j2 cannot be armoured, jumped, gives half a lifebars worth of a combo, can only be punished by 1-2 specific characters and the only way out of it without guessing 50/50 is backdashing.

then you have crowbar/teeth which have you worrying about jumps, b3s, backdashes, pokes into full combo by chars like KF and even punishes off of the backdash if the crowbar whiffs by chars like KF, sinestro, aquaman, lantern, WW, DD, etc.

i dont see why you need to expose yourself to so many ways for your opp to punish you just for 12%

even with j2/j3 this is not a strong setup because all you have to do is backdash
 

rehti

Noob
close teeth they can backdash, long teeth they can just jump, what about mid teeth? There must be a good setup for mid teeth as well. Perhaps the key is to make them recognize which teeth we just land.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
close teeth they can backdash, long teeth they can just jump, what about mid teeth? There must be a good setup for mid teeth as well. Perhaps the key is to make them recognize which teeth we just land.
they can backdash all teeth and jump all teeth except far if you do j3 to hit them.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Mid teeth have less purpose than the others. They have a longer timer until they explode, so they can be used to throw off timing for some people, but it can be seen really easily by how much higher they are thrown and adjusted to. There are some spots where corner combos are easier timing-wise with them, but that's all I have found, personally.
 

KonDcnT

KonDcnT
How'd you fair at break. Saw Dartharma bested Rico Suave in the winners bracket and in the finals. Just wondering if you had any footage of your game play, that ccould help the community.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
How'd you fair at break. Saw Dartharma bested Rico Suave in the winners bracket and in the finals. Just wondering if you had any footage of your game play, that ccould help the community.
They streamed soul caliber 2 for most of it, so I didn't make it on stream at all :(. Had to play on a ps3 controller, which I don't usually play with and suck with, because I couldn't get my hands on a converter. Other than that, I drop alot of stuff because I'm not used to the timing difference on a ps3/monitor setup as opposed to a xbox/tv setup and showed up late for casuals. I think I went 1-2 or something. Hopefully I'll get some stuff on stream for you guys to check out next week. Sorry for the let down :(.
 

KonDcnT

KonDcnT
I saw the sc2hd and thought injustice was going to start after. They picked up where kdz got sent to losers bracket. I was hoping to see a joker main in the mix. Ricoaalmost looked happy to lose. I guess it was because he's been killing the break for so long. Can't wait to see your stream. Also, I'm excited to see what Qwark28 has cooked up.
 

KonDcnT

KonDcnT
Still having trouble with DS match up. If I don't get in on him from the beginning I lose an ass load of life. It is a frustrating match up b/c ds can chip until life bars are in his advantage and then sword flip his way into the win. Maybe I just need more experience with him
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Once you get used to punishing, he's not so bad. It does suck online due to lag though. Just remember that sword flip is punishable and you can dash in between blocked gunshots unless they're meterburned. Once you get him to the corner, there's not much he can do about resets and such.
 

KonDcnT

KonDcnT
I was having trouble dashinhg in after block. if I got in early I had no problem outplaying the guy. The guy also played sinestro which online I can't dash boulders to save my life. I realize that I rely too much on jump. Qwark28 is right about the resets. I guess I need to play more DS.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
good luck hitting him out of sword flip after the invincibility of the first hit and before the second online.
Swordflip's tough to reset against in general using MB f3 due to the strictness of that window, but you can always just pushblock him back into the teeth or block (using the teeth to bait the wakeup) and punish since it's -21f on block.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Swordflip's tough to reset against in general using MB f3 due to the strictness of that window, but you can always just pushblock him back into the teeth or block (using the teeth to bait the wakeup) and punish since it's -21f on block.
so? does that mean its ok for online to take away guaranteed damage and allow the ds player to just block low?

offline the timing is not difficult.
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
so? does that mean its ok for online to take away guaranteed damage and allow the ds player to just block low?

offline the timing is not difficult.
Oh, you.
Not saying it's ok, just pointing out that there are options, albeit less favorable ones.
 

KonDcnT

KonDcnT
Online is a different beast imho. Sinestro and DS give me the worst time. Dash is not responsive and dash to block high/low is almost impossible. By the time i get the dash to work I dash into a swordflip or that stupid axe combo sinestro has only to get pushed back and do the same shit again. Tonight, a lot of my problem was not getting proper spacing.