"You're Fired!" -- Joker General Discussion Thread

[Gilbagz]

You got some cool things there, but I don't understand how you make your opponent respect your options so hard if they can poke you when you throw teeth, and than jump attack.

Hmmm which set up is this?

 

[CommonNick]

Hmmm which set up is this?

Wow I don't remember, I'm not even sure that they can do it, I'm just talking about my experience with Joker (just learned his basics and tried him online to see what I need to improve)

 

[Gilbagz]

Wow I don't remember, I'm not even sure that they can do it, I'm just talking about my experience with Joker (just learned his basics and tried him online to see what I need to improve)

ahhh. Well his wake up set ups (if you're using proper ones) come down to waking up or not waking up in most cases. Its character specific and some characters you have options to be safe against the wake up too. But in general you just need to make them scared to wake up.

In the neutral game, you make them scared to poke by using push block. Once they respect the push block it opens up your other options. But again there are a lot of levels to the mind game and the neutral game teeth set ups don't work on all characters.

 

[CommonNick]

ahhh. Well his wake up set ups (if you're using proper ones) come down to waking up or not waking up in most cases. Its character specific and some characters you have options to be safe against the wake up too. But in general you just need to make them scared to wake up.

In the neutral game, you make them scared to poke by using push block. Once they respect the push block it opens up your other options. But again there are a lot of levels to the mind game and the neutral game teeth set ups don't work on all characters.

Thanks, will take more time than I thought to learn him. Oh well, I got some hours to spare (not going to drop Injustice anywhere soon)
Push block into his teeth- should I use close,mid range, or far chattering teeth?

 

[Gilbagz]

Thanks, will take more time than I thought to learn him. Oh well, I got some hours to spare (not going to drop Injustice anywhere soon)
Push block into his teeth- should I use close,mid range, or far chattering teeth?

The main neutral game teeth set up is 2,1,2 far teeth
If they try to pressure push block sends them into the teeth
You can also do similar things on wake up, however its more free style and you just get a feel for it from experience.

 

[Zino]

I'm interested in the clowns lately (Harley, she's fun as hell), and Joker is really interesting as well, but I'm struggling with his Chattering Teeth special attack, can you link me to some good matches? (yours or good tournament players)

This isnt one of my best matches and neither are the other two vids on the finest fighters youtube channel but here you go. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

CommonNick, I'll be putting up a guide soon so watch for that- there will be a lot of teeth setup info. In terms of general stradegy, Joker (IMO) requires the most matchup knowledge of any character in this game. You have to play very patient a lot of the time and get your opponent to make mistakes. Otherwise he struggles to open people up.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

This isnt one of my best matches and neither are the other two vids on the finest fighters youtube channel but here you go. Let me know what you guys think.

Damn, that was a heartbreaker lol. Good play though. Few things:
Fire arrows on block aren't a frametrap, there were some spots you coulda punished him up close.
Waking up with crowbar can be good, but I would use it sparingly. There are very few invulnerable frames. The only time it is solid that I've seen is using it when people are jumping at you and their attack will hit as it starts, making it safe, or if they aren't pressuring. Otherwise you'll get blown up.

Good play though man. Nice conversions, good crowbaring in the corner, just gotta stay calm at the end

 

[Rathalos]

So per the thread by CrimsonShadow about new BnB/combo threads.

A lot of them need to be revamped.

Obviously Joker is one of them, since that thread is a mess, and the OP has been MIA since August.

Does anyone wish to volunteer to make the new one? Someone willing to update it for the foreseeable future?
If not, I don't mind doing it myself, I don't really play Joker, but all the relevant information is here in these threads. I just have to make it coherent and presentable, and if I got anything wrong, I'm sure you all will be more then willing to let me know.

StevoSuprem0
OnlineRon91
Gilbagz
Fromundaman
Qwark28
Zino

And anyone else I probably forgot.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Hey Rathalos, I think if no one else wants to, I can put something together sometime this week or late next week (I'm going to be travelling to San Diego for work Nov 9-13). It definitely does need quite a bit of updating, and it'd be nice to get more people interested in Joker .
I'm also working on a new guide video (recorded a bunch of stuff last weekend, but have been pretty busy since then). That should be finished sometime mid November.

 

[Gilbagz]

Hey guys
Took a break from studying today and did some frame data mining
Qwark28, what was your data on j3 again?

From what I could find
insta j3 is minimum -7, was getting punished by reversal corps charge
j3 at the max height is +1-2~ (standing 1 could not beat out corps charge but d1 could)
j3 at the optimal height +5-6~
j3 at the deepest point +12~ (j3 into 2,1,2 was a frame trap and there was no gap at all for reversal corp charge to even come out. Standing 3 was also beating out corps charge)

Some other stuff I found
- on green lantern, cross up j2 from any range. Standing 2 and standing 3 always connect. There were a few instances where standing 2 whiffed, but these incidents were few and far between.
So this stuff with 2 and 3 whiffing after blocking a ranged cross up j2 is character specific. We should get a list of the characters it whiffs on to help figure out match ups.
I know it whiffs on catwoman for sure. (may just be the characters that 2,1,2 whiffs on. I'll test more thorougly after my exam period)

Also found a way to punish/escape sinestro's vortex on a read.
Universal in application, but our punish does get punished once sinestro catches on. Might be able to confirm and then go for the punish, but it depends on your reactions and ability to visually confirm.

Edit: Also I can help with cleaning up the combo thread and stuff after my exam period finishes on the 18th.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I noticed that about the character specificity of the j2/3 crossup ranges. I'm with you on thinking that it might be the same characters as the ones who some of the mid strings whiff on. It would probably be good to add redo that thread with that information included (still can't believe they haven't fixed that shit yet, and probably won't be at this point...). Much to do.

 

[Qwark28]

Hey guys
Took a break from studying today and did some frame data mining
Qwark28, what was your data on j3 again?

From what I could find
insta j3 is minimum -7, was getting punished by reversal corps charge
j3 at the max height is +1-2~ (standing 1 could not beat out corps charge but d1 could)
j3 at the optimal height +5-6~
j3 at the deepest point +12~ (j3 into 2,1,2 was a frame trap and there was no gap at all for reversal corp charge to even come out. Standing 3 was also beating out corps charge)

Some other stuff I found
- on green lantern, cross up j2 from any range. Standing 2 and standing 3 always connect. There were a few instances where standing 2 whiffed, but these incidents were few and far between.
So this stuff with 2 and 3 whiffing after blocking a ranged cross up j2 is character specific. We should get a list of the characters it whiffs on to help figure out match ups.
I know it whiffs on catwoman for sure. (may just be the characters that 2,1,2 whiffs on. I'll test more thorougly after my exam period)

Also found a way to punish/escape sinestro's vortex on a read.
Universal in application, but our punish does get punished once sinestro catches on. Might be able to confirm and then go for the punish, but it depends on your reactions and ability to visually confirm.

Edit: Also I can help with cleaning up the combo thread and stuff after my exam period finishes on the 18th.

just the fact you used corp charge means your number at 2-4 frames off

corp charge has travel time



J3 deep as possible =17-18
instant J3 = -3
max height = +4
J3 at a height during which is beats AA unless preemptively done = +5

this advantage only applies from moves with 0-2 travel time at this specific angle and at 6 frames

which means that on everyone else we are at least 3-6f more + on everything.

 

[OnlineRon91]

Hey guys
Took a break from studying today and did some frame data mining
Qwark28, what was your data on j3 again?

From what I could find
insta j3 is minimum -7, was getting punished by reversal corps charge
j3 at the max height is +1-2~ (standing 1 could not beat out corps charge but d1 could)
j3 at the optimal height +5-6~
j3 at the deepest point +12~ (j3 into 2,1,2 was a frame trap and there was no gap at all for reversal corp charge to even come out. Standing 3 was also beating out corps charge)

Some other stuff I found
- on green lantern, cross up j2 from any range. Standing 2 and standing 3 always connect. There were a few instances where standing 2 whiffed, but these incidents were few and far between.
So this stuff with 2 and 3 whiffing after blocking a ranged cross up j2 is character specific. We should get a list of the characters it whiffs on to help figure out match ups.
I know it whiffs on catwoman for sure. (may just be the characters that 2,1,2 whiffs on. I'll test more thorougly after my exam period)

Also found a way to punish/escape sinestro's vortex on a read.
Universal in application, but our punish does get punished once sinestro catches on. Might be able to confirm and then go for the punish, but it depends on your reactions and ability to visually confirm.

Edit: Also I can help with cleaning up the combo thread and stuff after my exam period finishes on the 18th.

Day 1 Tech

No seriously, this is good to know that our 2 is like 7F lol

 

[Gilbagz]

just the fact you used corp charge means your number at 2-4 frames off

corp charge has travel time



J3 deep as possible =17-18
instant J3 = -3
max height = +4
J3 at a height during which is beats AA unless preemptively done = +5

this advantage only applies from moves with 0-2 travel time at this specific angle and at 6 frames

which means that on everyone else we are at least 3-6f more + on everything.

Ok assuming you are correct and you travel time into account
If corp charge has 6f start up and including the time to travel, it would take 8-10 frames to connect
the fact that this was punishing my insta j3 means insta jump 3 would be -8 to -10 then~
So going from my numbers everything should be even more negative
Max Height, -1 to -3~
Optimal Height, +1 to +2~
Deep j3, +8 to +9~

And for deep j3 this shouldnt even travel time shouldnt even affect it because deep j3 into 2,1,2 is a true block string. There is zero gap for the reversal to even begin coming up out. Therefore it must me minimum +12 so that the 11f standing 2 connects while they are still in block stun.

Also I don't believe you need to take travel time in this case because the distance is so minute. Lex already travels far enough during the start up to punish, only for longer distances do we need to consider travel time.

Also im not sure what you mean by having frame advantage that only applies in this specific case.
Frame advantage/disadvantage is fixed for the most part (unless you alter the timing like in this case with j3). The numbers are set, the only thing that changes is what the opponent is capable of because of their own frame data. Moves wont magically become more plus because someone doesnt have a 6f advancing special.

I think i know what your saying but you're understanding of frame data is a bit off, at least in this case.

 

[Qwark28]

Ok assuming you are correct and you travel time into account
If corp charge has 6f start up and including the time to travel, it would take 8-10 frames to connect
the fact that this was punishing my insta j3 means insta jump 3 would be -8 to -10 then~
So going from my numbers everything should be even more negative
Max Height, -1 to -3~
Optimal Height, +1 to +2~
Deep j3, +8 to +9~

And for deep j3 this shouldnt even travel time shouldnt even affect it because deep j3 into 2,1,2 is a true block string. There is zero gap for the reversal to even begin coming up out. Therefore it must me minimum +12 so that the 11f standing 2 connects while they are still in block stun.

Also I don't believe you need to take travel time in this case because the distance is so minute. Lex already travels far enough during the start up to punish, only for longer distances do we need to consider travel time.

Also im not sure what you mean by having frame advantage that only applies in this specific case.
Frame advantage/disadvantage is fixed for the most part (unless you alter the timing like in this case with j3). The numbers are set, the only thing that changes is what the opponent is capable of because of their own frame data. Moves wont magically become more plus because someone doesnt have a 6f advancing special.

I think i know what your saying but you're understanding of frame data is a bit off, at least in this case.

deep J3 can be from anywhere, not just jump range.

corps charge is 6f the second it starts, any travel time after it is extra frames, max distance corp charge is like 10-12, any travel time at all is frames lost

what I mean by saying jump ins are more plus is that this only applies to corp charge and flying uppercut and assuming they are willing to do it

vs other moves we have priority because they arent 6f advancing specials which means its like we actually are that +, they cannot do anything to negate that.

 

[Gilbagz]

deep J3 can be from anywhere, not just jump range.

corps charge is 6f the second it starts, any travel time after it is extra frames, max distance corp charge is like 10-12, any travel time at all is frames lost

what I mean by saying jump ins are more plus is that this only applies to corp charge and flying uppercut and assuming they are willing to do it

vs other moves we have priority because they arent 6f advancing specials which means its like we actually are that +, they cannot do anything to negate that.

ahhh right i get what your saying
from max jump 3 range, nothing connects anyway so having the plus frames there doesn't really mean much for us.

and yes your right I get what your saying. its similar to mk where if you didnt have a 6f poke, its like everything johnny cage did was positive since his 6f d1 would always beat out your options, creating the illusion of frame advantage even though he was at neutral.

 

[Qwark28]

ahhh right i get what your saying
from max jump 3 range, nothing connects anyway so having the plus frames there doesn't really mean much for us.

and yes your right I get what your saying. its similar to mk where if you didnt have a 6f poke, its like everything johnny cage did was positive since his 6f d1 would always beat out your options, creating the illusion of frame advantage even though he was at neutral.

i usually gunshot from max J3

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Any reason to not just go for far teeth on a max distance j3? If they don't tech it (which is often the case against a j3 connecting), it is a somewhat decent setup in most matchups until they start back dashing. Or are you just going for wall carry?

 

[Qwark28]

Any reason to not just go for far teeth on a max distance j3? If they don't tech it (which is often the case against a j3 connecting), it is a somewhat decent setup in most matchups until they start back dashing. Or are you just going for wall carry?

max j3 on block

ppl always tech j3 on hit, i just dash in and jump in or d2 crowbar the tech

 

[StevoSuprem0]

max j3 on block

ppl always tech j3 on hit, i just dash in and jump in or d2 crowbar the tech

Doesn't d2 xx crowbar whiff (that is, d2 hit then crowbar whiffs) or is that just space dependent?

 

[Qwark28]

Doesn't d2 xx crowbar whiff (that is, d2 hit then crowbar whiffs) or is that just space dependent?

its depending on if they jump or crouch but when i d2 crowbar i do it because i know itl be blocked or i wanna be extra safe and not at -12

 

[Qwark28]

grand finals in an online tournament, god games 3

next month well have another igau tournament but my joker wont be as fresh, got KI to play and finals in december

 

[StevoSuprem0]

That's what I thought. Just checkin'.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Good stuff. Not sold on KI yet... Not sure that I like the way it plays. I'm finicky that way . Also not sure I want an Xbox One over PS4...