Match-up Discussion Ares match up discussion 1.06

[4x4lo8o]

The patch is out! All our bad match ups are gone!
Well, maybe not. But things are certainly looking much brighter. Black Adam and Superman both look completely winnable or possibly even. Ares probably has many more winning match ups and almost all of his match ups have changed significantly with his new move set and the buffs and nerfs other characters have received.

It's early to tell, but with the exception of Lobo I think every single match up got easier. I'll throw together a basic mu chart over the next few days and keep it updated, and will document my new match up discoveries and experiences, I encourage everyone else to do the same.

Old match ups threads, for anyone interested:
http://testyourmight.com/threads/ares-match-up-discussion.31436/
http://testyourmight.com/threads/my-ares-match-up-chart.36665/





Match ups numbers are dumb and shouldn't be the focus of discussion, but here's a list of them as a reference and starting point for discussion
Any numbers in the op reflect my opinion and not a community consensus.

Aquaman 3-7
Bane 5-5
Batgirl 4-6
Batman 4-6
Black Adam 3-7
Catwoman 4-6
Cyborg 6-4
Deathstroke 4-6
Doomsday 4-6
Flash 4-6
Green Arrow 4-6
Green Lantern 4-6
Harley Quinn 4-6
Hawkgirl 4-6
Joker 5-5
Killer Frost 4-6
Lex Luthor 5-5
Lobo 4-6
Martian Manhunter 3-7
Nightwing 4-6
Raven 4-6
Scorpion 3-7
Shazam 5-5
Sinestro 4-6
Solomon Grundy 4-6
Superman 4-6
Wonder Woman 3-7
Zatanna 4-6
Zod 4-6


numbers last edited 12/11/13

 

[4x4lo8o]

Aquaman 4-6
Bane 7-3
Batgirl 5-5
Batman 4-6
Black Adam 4-6
Catwoman 6-4
Cyborg 6-4
Deathstroke 6-4
Doomsday 6-4
Flash 4-6
Green Arrow 5-5
Green Lantern 4-6
Harley Quinn 5-5
Hawkgirl 6-4
Joker 4-6
Killer Frost 5-5
Lex Luthor 6-4
Lobo 5-5
Martian Manhunter 4-6
Nightwing 3-7
Raven 5-5
Scorpion 4-6
Shazaam 6-4
Sinestro 6-4
Solomon Grundy 6-4
Superman 5-5
Wonder Woman 4-6
Zatanna 5-5
Zod 5-5

I posted some match up numbers. They're more of a prediction/starting point based on mu's prepatch, how I think the patch will affect mu's, and where I see tech and the meta going in the future. Nothing too serious, just some numbers thrown out there while we relearn all the match ups.

I got some good offline experience in today with a few characters:
Bane seems like a really good match up now. Ares gets up really easily, even when in the corner. Running away is really easy, and Axe and MB fireball are really great zoning tools in this match up. I suspect all the grappler mu's will be like this now. Definitely feels like it's in Ares favor. Our Bane player was getting really frustrated.

Wonder Woman
This one is a bit better now that you can get up. The new teleports make it easier to stay out as well, but otherwise this match up feels pretty similar to how it did before. Iadg can punish the far teleports if you're not being careful. Wonder Woman can duck, jump, and parry your zoning and has everything she needs to make your life hard once she gets in. d1 still likes to whiff on her floaty hitbox and her corner game is annoying

Scorpion
This match up actually seems to have gotten worse. All the problems, like not being able to punish mb tele and not being able to zone effectively because of his teleport, are still there plus he does more damage. If the teleport buff helps at all it's going to take some time to figure it out, the teleports everywhere get hectic and it can be hard to tell during matches what caused what.

MMH
This is a frustrating match up. OH teleport really shuts down your zoning options so you have to walk your way in. MB teleport helps a lot, but it still feels like MMH completely controls the flow of the match. You have to know how to punish his overhead teleport and show that you can and will, otherwise he can do whatever he want.

GL
Don't feel like this one changed much. The far teleports make it a little easier to get full screen and to teleport out of his vortexes and mb tele is good for punishing fireballs, but the inability to punish lift from most ranges and GL's dominance of the footsie game are still a problem. Lift can punish far behind teleport.

Black Adam
Didn't get as much experience as I wanted on this one, but it still feels mostly the same. He still has all the stuff that made him a problem for Ares, it's just not as intense. Divekick is still basically unpunishable on block, he still basically out zones you and counter zones the hell out of you, he still hits like a truck, he still run away pretty well, and his pressure up close is still the same. But being able to get up safely and mb teleport in both help a lot and the slower back dash and changes to lightning strike make things feel much more managable for Ares. I feel like it went from feeling like an unwinnable bad match up to a match up that feels annoying and unfavorable but not that big of road block.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

My thoughts on the matchups...

Aquaman. Same as before, disadvantage, but not bad.
Bane. This feels easier thanks to MB teleports and with the new MB B3 mechanics I feel hurt Bane more than everyone else.
Batgirl. Same as before...only without the up close holes.
Batman. Nothing changed, really. Batman's trait is still a bitch to deal with.
Black Adam. I don't think the matchup has changed much, if at all.
Catwoman. Feels the same. Watch put for her buffed Feline evade as it does act like a better WW's parry up close.
Cyborg. Feels the same. His trait is somewhat usable meaning you have to hit him one more time than usual, but other than that, still wins this.
Deathstroke. Still going to get jumped around like a fool, but at least the Oki game is almost eliminated with MB teleport wakeup...we'll see what happens...
Doomsday. I feel like this matchup got somewhat better.
Flash. Not changed, not getting any better...
Green Arrow. MB Stinger may be a threat in this matchup, Sword projectile will no longer hit GA's low arrow, so more MB Dark Energies pls.
Green Lantern. No OTG means this matchup can only get better.
Harley Quinn. Bleh. She feels weak. I don't know...maybe this is better?
Hawkgirl. Same as before.
Joker. Same as before. Watch your gaps in your strings.
Killer Frost. Same as before. Stupid ass safe slide...
Lex Luthor. Unchanged except for the lance blast buff.
Lobo. Don't let him in...
Martian Manhunter. Getting through his zoning shenanigans will be tough to deal with. Paitence is key in this matchup.
Nightwing. The Nightwing buff sucks...but he's still suspectible to zoning. Need more Nightwing experience though ;_;
Raven. Unchanged.
Scorpion. This got worse.
Shazaam. Nothing changed other than longer command grab. Meh.
Sinestro. Definately better.
Solomon Grundy. Grundy no catch Ares.
Superman. A lot better, but I don't think it will ever be even the way he zips around.
Wonder Woman. Hopefully this is a better matchup...
Zatanna. Don't know yet. Better air moves might raise some concerns...
Zod. No clue yet.

 

[4x4lo8o]

Black Adam. I don't think the matchup has changed much, if at all.
Cyborg. Feels the same. His trait is somewhat usable meaning you have to hit him one more time than usual, but other than that, still wins this.
Deathstroke. Still going to get jumped around like a fool, but at least the Oki game is almost eliminated with MB teleport wakeup...we'll see what happens...
Flash. Not changed, not getting any better...
Nightwing. The Nightwing buff sucks...but he's still suspectible to zoning. Need more Nightwing experience though ;_;
Scorpion. This got worse.
Superman. A lot better, but I don't think it will ever be even the way he zips around.
Wonder Woman. Hopefully this is a better matchup...

I agree about Black Adam. Playing against him barely feels any different. Most of the changes were subtle and weren't ones that directly affect this match up in a noticeable way.

I think MB teleport is a big deal in the Cyborg match up. You could already teleport his fireballs on reaction from 3/4 screen and now you can mb it for a punish he gets a little sloppy. You might even be able to punish ground Nova Blast?
Before he couldn't zone the way he wanted, but as long as he was playing smart you were never going to use teleport to get an actual punish on him for it. Also, I would suspect that MB tele on reaction to trait is a big deterrent from him ever using it

Deathstroke's another mu where I feel mb tele is a big deal. If you make a wrong read on guns you can now mb it and he doesn't get a punish. And if sword flip is his go to teleport punish he's going to have a really bad day.

Other than Ares wake up teleports, nothing done to either character has much effect on the Flash match up. It should at least be easier to get out of the corner now...

Nightwing's another one who doesn't really get hurt at all by our buffs, and unlike Flash he got a buff that really helps him in this match up. I already thought this was a problem match up with Ares, and I don't see this patch making it significantly better. On the bright side, Nightwing actually has to know this match up pretty well to blow Ares up really hard and scrubby NW's will always be free to GS while in staff stance.

Scorpion definitely got worse. I don't want to deal with this bullshit, I'm counter picking this character in tournament.

I agree about Superman. But almost every change to both characters directly helped Ares in this match up, so I'm going to stay optimistic for now.

I think Wonder Woman is still a huge pain. I'm really glad I have one in my scene so I can get experience in that match up. I don't think she's necessarily top 5 or Superman tier broken or anything, but WW players haven't started really blowing people up yet in tournaments and I think it's going to start happening soon..



I'm going to go ahead and say that Bane is the first match up in a very long time that I feel like I can confidently say Ares wins. I'm not saying I don't think he had any winning match ups pre-patch, but all the match ups that I felt could have been in his favor were sort 6-4/5-5 type things and I usually felt that it was possible the tech/tools to keep those mu's from being in Ares favor existed but hadn't been found/explored(or at least used against me) yet.
Right now I can say without much hesitation or doubt that I think Ares beats Bane. It feels good, hopefully there's a lot more match ups like that.

 

[Doombawkz]

I disagree, and you know the reasons why. GL can run away too, for longer, and has better tools to keep us out. Even still, he loses in the neutral and meter will only get you so far.

I'm still saying its a 5-5 until we get some tourney results rolling in. I don't see Ares as any more of a challenge than before, maybe a 5.5-4.5 your favour because I feel like you guys deserve it and all but frankly the Mu doesn't feel too different barring the "spending so much meter running away that theres no more meter to do damage".

 

[Hellbringer]

Ill discuss more tomorrow but some mu's i have a different view on.

First of all, catwoman. How are you guys playing vs catwoman to make it even or advantage for ares? I feel totally lost in this mu.

Same for raven and hawkgirl.

The more i play vs lex, the more i think its in lex's favor. Ares mb teleport might be usefull to counter lex's trait.

The bane mu seems alot better now, like been said, our new teleport helps alot in this mu.(in every mu tough but edpecially in this one)

 

[MashPotatoTower]

Ares 5 - 5 the cast

 

[nuttyAFA]

you really think ares has an advantage over hawkgirl? it's always felt the other way to me, and this matchup should be one that doesnt change much. Haven't really played a good ares though, so I would like to know the line of thinking here.

 

[Doombawkz]

With her new patch change, she can mace charge your wake up, MB and it'll track your tele wherever it goes from what I could see.

 

[Hellbringer]

you really think ares has an advantage over hawkgirl? it's always felt the other way to me, and this matchup should be one that doesnt change much. Haven't really played a good ares though, so I would like to know the line of thinking here.

Yeah agreed, altough with 22 not whiffing anymore and being +1 on block will help alot but still it doesnt feel like ares has advantage.

 

[4x4lo8o]

Ill discuss more tomorrow but some mu's i have a different view on.

First of all, catwoman. How are you guys playing vs catwoman to make it even or advantage for ares? I feel totally lost in this mu.

Same for raven and hawkgirl.

The more i play vs lex, the more i think its in lex's favor. Ares mb teleport might be usefull to counter lex's trait.

The bane mu seems alot better now, like been said, our new teleport helps alot in this mu.(in every mu tough but edpecially in this one)

I think Ares lost to Catwoman pre patch. Post patch I haven't played the mu yet, but I think mb teleport and teleport away will be very helpful in that match up. It's something I'm going to play, but I have some ideas that I think should make it better.

Raven is a match up where you want to be either full screen or in her face, and Ares got tools to help him with both. If you stay full screen you out zone her, and I think that's the key to this match up now. I dunno, it's a weird match up and our Raven player quit so I don't have much experience any more.

Hawkgirl's Mace Charge is probably punishable with MB tele on reaction now. If you get a life lead you can stay full screen and she can't do a whole lot. I've always though Ares did fine and the patch makes it better. The 22 thing affects this match up, she was one of the characters that could crouch it.

I don't know where I'm going to find a Raven player, but this weekend I should definitely get some Catwoman and Hawkgirl sets. I'll post more and see if I can get them on stream so you can see what I'm doing right, or tell me what the people I'm playing are doing wrong.

 

[4x4lo8o]

With her new patch change, she can mace charge your wake up, MB and it'll track your tele wherever it goes from what I could see.

haha, damn...
Although she already could Mace Charge our wake up and blow up any teleport so I guess this just maintains the status quo.

 

[nuttyAFA]

haha, damn...
Although she already could Mace Charge our wake up and blow up any teleport so I guess this just maintains the status quo.

actually just messing around, it seems the mb catches you on all wakeup teleports EXCEPT teleport backwards away from hawkgirl. she doesn't cover enough distance as you seem to teleport based on where she ends up after the non meterburn mace charge part. obviously being too close to the corner takes this option away

edit: more messing around, a lot actually depends on whether ares does wakeup teleport right away or waits to the last frame, and when hawkgirl does mace charge and then meterburns. sometimes you can cause her to whiff the mb part on a normal crossup teleport

 

[xInfra Deadx]

So the new teleports avoid MMH's teleport overhead's shockwave hitbox completely, opening up for a projectile punish with the away teleport and a free B3/F3 with the behind teleport. I don't want to say things just got easier, but this is huge.

 

[The Gabriel]

Nightwing matchup is even easier now. Being able to teleport outside of his range is a huge plus, and really the only thing Ares was lacking.

Batgirl still in Ares' favor

Bane 5-5 at best

Joker 6-4 over Ares now convincingly

Scorpion - why the hell was this pos buffed? terrible match-up, stupid character who shouldn't be in the game

Deathstroke can still lame you out pretty easily...mb tele doesn't do that much because he can just j3.

 

[ryublaze]

InFlames great games I can tell you know your Ares. I'm still learning lol. You have to teach me the 3d2 sword cancel combo. Is there a reason why you prefer that over the MB godsmack combo? Ares mirrors are so fun.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

What's your guys take on the GL matchup? The only reason i'm saying anything is that Denzell has it as 7-3 GL and i'm not in agreement with it.

 

[4x4lo8o]

What's your guys take on the GL matchup? The only reason i'm saying anything is that Denzell has it as 7-3 GL and i'm not in agreement with it.

Haha, he's got it at 7-3 GL now? I didn't see that one

In the old Ares match up thread he said he thought it was 5-5 and I told him it was in GL's favor. I dunno that it's 3-7, and the patch helped, but it's a struggle for Ares. Ares gets outfootsied hard, and can't punish lift at most ranges. Full screen is the only place where Ares does well, so Ares is constantly trying to run away and GL's mobility is better than Ares(don't buy that 'GL's mobility is horrible' crap people try to push, his walk speed is good and his dashes are probably better than Ares's, plus in some situations he can use the turbine charge for mobility).
Once he gets you in that dreaded b1/lift range it's so hard for Ares to get out or do anything

 

[The Gabriel]

Have to make a lot of guesses now against GL with MB teleport. The only thing Ares has going for him in this MU is Lantern's wakeups suck against Ares so you have to turn every knockdown into big damage. Otherwise GL is beast up close *and* can start out-zoning you from outside lift range (which most GL's rarely do but the good ones definitely do).

 

[1man3letters]

vs scorpion is at least 3-7

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

I actually don't think the Sinestro MU changed much, if at all. If Ares tries to MB tele in Sin's face, he can check him with a D1 everytime. If he teleports farther away from him, then he just let Sinestro get away with an errant fireball since it is not only farther away but also has more recovery.

 

[4x4lo8o]

vs scorpion is at least 3-7

That match up sucks, but I don't think it's quite that bad

 

[RYX]

Bane didn't switch advantage entirely

It's just 6-4 now

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Bane didn't switch advantage entirely

It's just 6-4 now

You can't hurt what you can't catch. Don't hold your breath...I can see it as a legitimate 7-3.

 

[1man3letters]

That match up sucks, but I don't think it's quite that bad

i know your not trying to say your chart is 100% fact and written in stone, that its your opinion buts lets take off our up play/down play hats that we can all wear at times & lets take a logical look at this..

so far every ares player that has mentioned the mu agrees it got worse, so are your trying to say it was 5-5 before that patch?
you also stated yourself you have no intention of playing this mu in tourny and will go straight to a counter pick (id suggest get a pocket aquaman for that job btw) all this for a apparent 4-6 mu?

vanilla scorpion vs ares was 9-1, scorpion could do what he wanted, when he wanted with little to no risk and all ares zoning tools bar straight sword would result him him losing 23% or 6% and being put in a guessing game,still does.
then the normalization came, also the whole cast got a d2 buff. things slighty improved but still was in scorpions favor.
now with most recent patch scorpion got his damage back and a re-adjusted j3, the changes made to ares didnt effect anything in the scorpion mu, even with the new teleports the best result for ares getting of the ground vs scorpion is to use a bar and eat 3% chip.
ares cant punish mb telepunch and if he presses a button after scorpion can punish him, its might as well be the vanilla mb telepunch vs ares cause nothing has changed about the use of the move in that mu from day 1.
scorpion limits most of ares's tool while ares limits none of his, scorpion can still do what he wants when he wants in the mu but with SLIGHTLY more risk now.

im not even going to stress the point of how much ive played the mu offline (from both sides) just a plain look at tools vs tools shows no way is this a mu were ares is at slight disadvantage, im sorry man but no, like i said at least 3-7