Well, I'd better just go ahead and put this out here...

[Duck Nation]

I'm not really ready to post this, but I've been quietly tooling away for some time consulting people and doing my homework in general, trying to get a good all-around handle on the balance in Injustice. I think I've still got a long way to go and I don't think I'm necessarily right about any of this (except my thoughts on Deathstroke ), but with Boon hinting at the patch coming up I don't think I can sit on it any longer, half-finished or not.

This is not all material I came up with myself, and in fact almost all of it (everything not related to the character I personally play) comes from other players. I'm not going to tag anybody because I am well aware this is a pandora's box and I have no interest in sucking people who were very kind, helpful and informative into a mess entirely of my own making.

Most of my goal here is to solve the really bad matchups in the game - anything worse than a 6-4. I did try to get a bit of that in here, since a game that's nothing but 5-5s is ideal, but 6-4s are winnable enough that I didn't make them a priority. I also tried to restrain myself on the scope and number of changes wherever possible, though I realize there are some radical alterations here. I could see no other alternative in those cases.

At any rate, here comes the stuff sure to cause anger...


Ares: No thoughts, deficient information

Aquaman:
Preferably - retool trait completely. Change it so that if his trait is active, Aquaman can block during any move, effectively being able to turn unsafe attacks into safe ones - much the same way he uses it now for certain situations. Removes the issue of his trait randomly and irregularly being useful, based entirely on whether a character can get him airborne first hit, and replaces it with something that reflects its current most legitimate and intelligent use.

Otherwise - significantly lengthen trait cooldown. Eight seconds is not nearly enough for a free combo breaker, especially given the lopsided effect it has on a number of his matches.

Bane: Solved by corrections to other characters - changing Adam’s lightning, GL’s minigun, and Nightwing’s wingdings to behave as projectiles.

Batgirl: Solved by correcting Aquaman.

Batman: Worst match solved by correcting Aquaman. Batarangs turned into a high, retaining all other properties including mid hit on meter burn.

Black Adam: Decrease pushback on MB lightning bolt on block. Make trait no longer do chip damage. Preferably also make trait end if he goes for a throw and is teched.

Catwoman: No thoughts, deficient information

Cyborg: No changes needed.

Deathstroke: Necessary: At least 5 frames of block advantage back on blocked low shots. Ideal: Reverted to vanilla form.

Doomsday: Bad match against Superman solved by changes to Superman. Batman, deficient information.

Flash: No changes needed.

Green Arrow: No thoughts, deficient information.

Green Lantern: No changes needed.

Harley Quinn: Unknown if changes to Black Adam will sufficiently address her worst matchup. Her second worst evened out via changes to Aquaman. Probably needs no changes.

Hawkgirl: The ability to block projectiles in the air. Possibly the ability to spend meter to get armor while in flight mode.

The Joker: No thoughts, deficient information.

Killer Frost: No changes needed.

Lex Luthor: No thoughts, deficient information.

Lobo: No thoughts, deficient information.

Martian Manhunter: No thoughts, deficient information.

Nightwing: No thoughts, deficient information.

Raven: No thoughts, deficient information.

Scorpion: No thoughts, deficient information.

Shazam: Uninterruptible 2,2 and some form of air control at bare minimum. Probably needs a lot more than that.

Sinestro: Faster startup on shackles by just enough to punish Aquaman trident and KF iceberg when blocked, much like DS can with quick shots.

Solomon Grundy: No thoughts, deficient information.

Superman: Armor breaking on trait eliminated to make match more winnable for Doomsday. Also will help Lex and Ares, who both have hard matches against him. Scaling increase on heat zap to bring down his corner damage slightly.

Wonder Woman: No thoughts, deficient information.

Zatanna: No thoughts, deficient information.

Zod: No thoughts, deficient information.

Bring me your vitriol. I am as ready for it as I will ever be.

 

[Duck Nation]

Final note: I had more here until recent conversations caused me to throw out some chunk of my material, which I dismissed as no longer valid. I realize this doesn't actually look like much of a comprehensive list in it current form.

 

[Odoyle]

I saw nerf Aquaman's trait to the ground but give Deathstroke his vanilla low shots and that's where you lost me.

 

[Duck Nation]

I saw nerf Aquaman's trait to the ground but give Deathstroke his vanilla low shots and that's where you lost me.

And I am happy to rationalize either. Aquaman would still be a top ten character with his trait outright deleted from the game. His trait is not a tool in any sense like the others in the game - it is nothing but a combo breaker in a game where nobody else has one, and serves no purpose except to rob other characters of fairly earned damage. It also does so in a way that's really very poorly designed, which without any reason or logic decimates a number of characters lacking good (or any) openers that launch on first hit. The rest of his tools, even trait aside, are good enough as to not need it, and the proposed alteration I included lets him keep his fairest, smartest use of it and would even make him subtly better in some matches.

Here's the rub about Deathstroke's guns - they're not really good unless he's reading or reacting to what you're doing and actually catching you mid-action. Even if he didn't get his old chip damage back, the frames are extremely important. Everyone always could dash between gunshots, even in the vanilla build, and the only thing the patch changed in that respect was that people now have more frames for error and don't have to dash quite as tightly. What it cost for DS, on the other hand, was that he suddenly became very punishable by a large part of the cast, making his guns very unreliable across a huge portion of the screen. The nerf gave no real help to people who had trouble with Stroke, while seriously impacting him in a large number of matches. It was a decision based on internet play, and only really wound up harming things for non-scrubs.

 

[LEGEND]

Sinestro can already punish Killer Frost's Iceberg with shackles btw

 

[Duck Nation]

Sinestro can already punish Killer Frost's Iceberg with shackles btw

Really? I was told by another (tournament winning!) Sinestro player that was not the case! Duly noted. Anything else to add?

 

[YOMI Trepound380]

hawkgirl blocking during flight would make her op. trust me that is not what yall want to happen lol

 

[FCP/EMP SCAR]

I agree with your suggestions for the most part, but let me add something if i may.

Superman: Ability for armor break only on MB laser projectile, not during regular attacks or breathe, This will help bane contend better in this matchup, no longer making it 10-0.

Cyborg- Make b3 startup faster, giving him the ability to combo after a landed ji2, just as he does after an landed grapple hook j2, this will push his mid screen damage a little more since he does weak damage mid screen without burning 2 bars.

 

[Duck Nation]

hawkgirl blocking during flight would make her op. trust me that is not what yall want to happen lol

You briefly made me panic thinking I hadn't said "projectiles," but no, phew, I did.

Truth is, that change would only affect a handful of people who currently beat her pretty convincingly, specifically because they rob her of her greatest asset - air control. Most characters' projectiles are already going to completely miss her to begin with, but for the people who can hit her and clip her wings from a distance, she's no longer basically literally a sitting duck. Just like with zoning on the ground, she'd still have to be actually blocking, and she would be incapable of blocking any attack NOT a projectile. I went over that one pretty carefully and I stand by it proudly.

 

[Red Reaper]

Black Adam's Backdash should be punishable like everyone elses.

Superman's F23 needs something changed. Everyone has differing opinions on what that is though....


The more I read these threads, the less I want a patch. This one is waay better than most but if even we kan't get it right how kan we expect non-kompetitive players at NRS to balance things out.

 

[zuurrkk]

Thank you for not requesting a ridiculous gl nerf like "make trait lift uncomboable" or some of the other ridiculous things I see.

Also, more superman nerfs. F2 3, 2 frame super, brain dead meter building, mb laser pushback, chip on heat zap (why does it need to do 5%?). Not saying nerf all of that, but given that he's a character that has literally everything, he could lose a lot more than you request and still be good.

 

[YOMI Trepound380]

You briefly made me panic thinking I hadn't said "projectiles," but no, phew, I did.

Truth is, that change would only affect a handful of people who currently beat her pretty convincingly, specifically because they rob her of her greatest asset - air control. Most characters' projectiles are already going to completely miss her to begin with, but for the people who can hit her and clip her wings from a distance, she's no longer basically literally a sitting duck. Just like with zoning on the ground, she'd still have to be actually blocking, and she would be incapable of blocking any attack NOT a projectile. I went over that one pretty carefully and I stand by it proudly.

but thats what makes her fair that she just cant fly all over the place and it will turn some of her MUs very lopsided. plus it makes hg mainers to learn how to use her ground mobility

 

[LEGEND]

Really? I was told by another (tournament winning!) Sinestro player that was not the case! Duly noted. Anything else to add?

only thing Sinestro could use without being too good imo, is either a safe poke or making F2 neutral on block with zero block stun so he could get some kind of mix-up game without trait or risking his life on a b13 trying to catch dashes. The mix-ups from F2 wouldn't even get that much damage, they'd just be a way to send people full screen and take the life lead. He would need this if the top tier stay the way they are, otherwise i'm fine with a poke that doesn't risk half my life

For Deathstroke, only thing he needs is for his gunshots to be significantly more plus on hit. This would dual as a buff to his keep away and give him a way to start his offense if you wiff punish someone. Thats always the one thing that stands out to me about playing as DS, i don't feel like i get enough reward for making people wiff things (low shots shouldn't be more than +5 frames or so on hit, but high shots should be around +20 or more with MB)

Flash needs his D2 fixed, too braindead

 

[Soulofsuikoden]

And I am happy to rationalize either. Aquaman would still be a top ten character with his trait outright deleted from the game. His trait is not a tool in any sense like the others in the game - it is nothing but a combo breaker in a game where nobody else has one, and serves no purpose except to rob other characters of fairly earned damage. It also does so in a way that's really very poorly designed, which without any reason or logic decimates a number of characters lacking good (or any) openers that launch on first hit. The rest of his tools, even trait aside, are good enough as to not need it, and the proposed alteration I included lets him keep his fairest, smartest use of it and would even make him subtly better in some matches.

Here's the rub about Deathstroke's guns - they're not really good unless he's reading or reacting to what you're doing and actually catching you mid-action. Even if he didn't get his old chip damage back, the frames are extremely important. Everyone always could dash between gunshots, even in the vanilla build, and the only thing the patch changed in that respect was that people now have more frames for error and don't have to dash quite as tightly. What it cost for DS, on the other hand, was that he suddenly became very punishable by a large part of the cast, making his guns very unreliable across a huge portion of the screen. The nerf gave no real help to people who had trouble with Stroke, while seriously impacting him in a large number of matches. It was a decision based on internet play, and only really wound up harming things for non-scrubs.

I like the superman nerfs because his trait is good enough with the damage boost, fast recovery, being able to do it in a string and having a fast cooldown. He really doesn't need to break armour on top of that. It just makes certain match ups unfair, no to mention stopping everyone's universal b/f3 MB.

I approve of the DS buff on low gun shot. You won't be able to dash if he stand gun shots afterwards but you could read it and stay ducked, then dash in anyway. Seems fair to me.

Bane buff being BA and GL having their projectiles count as projectiles is good.

 

[Duck Nation]

Superman: Ability for armor break only on MB laser projectile, not during regular attacks or breathe, This will help bane contend better in this matchup, no longer making it 10-0.

Armor break with trait active? I already suggested removing armor breaking from Superman's trait altogether. I'm told by Bane mains that the biggest issue here is that Superman simply outfootsies Bane, and I'm not sure that's a solvable problem. Hopefully bringing down Superman's damage would help that some, too.

Cyborg- Make b3 startup faster, giving him the ability to combo after a landed ji2, just as he does after an landed grapple hook j2, this will push his mid screen damage a little more since he does weak damage mid screen without burning 2 bars.

While I'm not opposed to these kinds of changes, I have to ask, what match would this be relevant to? Cyborg already seems to do pretty well for himself and I can't imagine how a buff to his midscreen damage would really impact anything major.

Black Adam's Backdash should be punishable like everyone elses.

Why? Adam's mobility is basically the crux of his design. He's a godlike (hee hee) whiff punisher, which is probably the single best thing he has going for him and arguably the thing that makes him the most unique among the cast. I do agree that he needs a nerf, being the unquestionable number one in the game at the moment, but my bent was to take away some of his zoning power and try to cut into his turtling because that's the stuff that makes him really, REALLY unfun to play against.

Superman's F23 needs something changed. Everyone has differing opinions on what that is though....

To what end? I realize people have a lot of salt for f23, but it's his only truly reliable option. His zoning is middling and gets bopped by any character with decent projectiles or anti-zoning tools as it is, and his mixups are fuzzy guardable and unsafe. His best tool for any kind of mixup might actually be ambiguous airdash crossups, and that says a LOT about how poorly he can actually do so. I mostly tried to leave Superman alone because I am very afraid that if f23 gets nerfed, he immediately takes a nosedive into low tier.

This one is waay better than most

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

His zoning is middling and gets bopped by any character with decent projectiles or anti-zoning tools as it is,

ugh

 

[Duck Nation]

only thing Sinestro could use without being too good imo, is either a safe poke or making F2 neutral on block with zero block stun so he could get some kind of mix-up game without trait or risking his life on a b13 trying to catch dashes. The mix-ups from F2 wouldn't even get that much damage, they'd just be a way to send people full screen and take the life lead. He would need this if the top tier stay the way they are, otherwise i'm fine with a poke that doesn't risk half my life

So, same question I keep asking, what matches does this relate to? I'm told Sinestro does very well for himself except against Frost and Aquaman. Does he need this to compete in those matches, and if so, why?

For Deathstroke, only thing he needs is for his gunshots to be significantly more plus on hit. This would dual as a buff to his keep away and give him a way to start his offense if you wiff punish someone. Thats always the one thing that stands out to me about playing as DS, i don't feel like i get enough reward for making people wiff things (low shots shouldn't be more than +5 frames or so on hit, but high shots should be around +20 or more with MB)

He needs block advantage back far, far more. Gunshots are already plenty good on hit, and with that kind of advantage you're talking about being able to catch people in insane frame traps everywhere. It would mostly equate to additional damage, and what Deathstroke is in dire need of is additional safety. Nothing else is going to help him, and as I said, it's not going to do anything to his other matches except make people be tighter on their dash timing.

Flash needs his D2 fixed, too braindead

That's vague. In what way?

 

[Duck Nation]

ugh

I agree, that's how I feel about people making bitchy, unhelpful posts with zero rationalization or explanation too.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I agree, that's how I feel about people making bitchy, unhelpful posts with zero rationalization or explanation too.

it was still better than your post though

 

[Duck Nation]

it was still better than your post though

Waiter? Please take this food back. There's far too much salt in it.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Armor break with trait active? I already suggested removing armor breaking from Superman's trait altogether. I'm told by Bane mains that the biggest issue here is that Superman simply outfootsies Bane, and I'm not sure that's a solvable problem. Hopefully bringing down Superman's damage would help that some, too.


While I'm not opposed to these kinds of changes, I have to ask, what match would this be relevant to? Cyborg already seems to do pretty well for himself and I can't imagine how a buff to his midscreen damage would really impact anything major.


Why? Adam's mobility is basically the crux of his design. He's a godlike (hee hee) whiff punisher, which is probably the single best thing he has going for him and arguably the thing that makes him the most unique among the cast. I do agree that he needs a nerf, being the unquestionable number one in the game at the moment, but my bent was to take away some of his zoning power and try to cut into his turtling because that's the stuff that makes him really, REALLY unfun to play against.


To what end? I realize people have a lot of salt for f23, but it's his only truly reliable option. His zoning is middling and gets bopped by any character with decent projectiles or anti-zoning tools as it is, and his mixups are fuzzy guardable and unsafe. His best tool for any kind of mixup might actually be ambiguous airdash crossups, and that says a LOT about how poorly he can actually do so. I mostly tried to leave Superman alone because I am very afraid that if f23 gets nerfed, he immediately takes a nosedive into low tier.

I don't care if his lasers get faster start up, I just want them to have more recovery.

I'm also not quite understanding what you're saying about aquaman's trait. Is the nerf just that he has longer cool down?

 

[Duck Nation]

I don't care if his lasers get faster start up, I just want them to have more recovery.

I don't think anybody wants his lasers faster...

I'm also not quite understanding what you're saying about aquaman's trait. Is the nerf just that he has longer cool down?

That would be the more realistic angle, yes. The optimistic angle would be to completely rework it, so that he could activate trait while attacking and if somebody tries to punish him during an unsafe move, he becomes able to guard while still in recovery. His trait as it is is already sometimes selectively used that way so that he can minimize his risk, hence my suggestion of altering the trait to preserve that use, while removing the part that allows him to so completely shut out certain characters.

 

[LEGEND]

So, same question I keep asking, what matches does this relate to? I'm told Sinestro does very well for himself except against Frost and Aquaman. Does he need this to compete in those matches, and if so, why?


He needs block advantage back far, far more. Gunshots are already plenty good on hit, and with that kind of advantage you're talking about being able to catch people in insane frame traps everywhere. It would mostly equate to additional damage, and what Deathstroke is in dire need of is additional safety. Nothing else is going to help him, and as I said, it's not going to do anything to his other matches except make people be tighter on their dash timing.


That's vague. In what way?

Sinestro has about 5-6 slightly bad mus, with Aquaman/killer frost being very difficult. In all his MUs he struggles with ways to open up his opponent and/or build trait. So the F2 mix-up buff solves that pretty well imo but could cause problems in the MUs he already wins, he really needs a safe poke though

as for Flash's D2. . . its 9 frames, +3 on block, lowers his hitbox under mids, launches for 30% combos, and recovers so fast that only a few characters can even punish it on wiff. As a former flash player, it disgusted me

 

[Pan1cMode]

I don't think anybody wants his lasers faster...


That would be the more realistic angle, yes. The optimistic angle would be to completely rework it, so that he could activate trait while attacking and if somebody tries to punish him during an unsafe move, he becomes able to guard while still in recovery. His trait as it is is already sometimes selectively used that way so that he can minimize his risk, hence my suggestion of altering the trait to preserve that use, while removing the part that allows him to so completely shut out certain characters.

Oh, I don't want them faster, but if the trade off for more recovery is faster start up, I'll take it.

Also, as much as I would love that nerf to aquaman as a batgirl main, it would be quite a substantial nerf. If trait was fixed so that he could only use it like 3 times per match (lots of cool down, you can increase duration if you want) I'd be completely ok with it. As it stands, you have to bait out the trait, hopefully get a hard knock down, and then rush him for 8 seconds while he uses his superior footsies to stuff you over and keep you out then repeat as it comes back hella fast.

Even if it was just made so he couldn't activate it during hit stun, that would be much better.

 

[Duck Nation]

Also, more superman nerfs. F2 3, 2 frame super, brain dead meter building, mb laser pushback, chip on heat zap (why does it need to do 5%?). Not saying nerf all of that, but given that he's a character that has literally everything, he could lose a lot more than you request and still be good.

Missed this post. Whiner_Chef aside, I have no real argument against the validity of toning down some of his tools. Most people want to destroy f23, but if that happens it takes away the single most unique and powerful tool in his gameplay and he would struggle to have all the rest of his tools make up that difference. I'm not sure I'm willing to plunge myself into that particular mess at this point, though, and I don't think a few frames of nerfing or some damage tuning on his lasers is going to have a grand effect on matchups, which is again what I'm really tilting this thread at. If you look at the characters who are going to have the hardest time with lasers, it's also characters who just have problems dealing with zoning period. Superman is a symptom of that, rather than the cause.