Are Clashes Killing Hype?

[godlessmode]

Preface and a small plug –
This all came about as a result of reviewing the EVO top 8 matches in order to start defining, and tracking stats for the DojoSports 5v5 League – which you should check out if you are interested in a more structured competitive FGC environment. Link is ---> http://dojosports.com/

First up, to get it out of the way, I don’t have the stats ready for public consumption yet, and may not ever for EVO2013 due to a need to focus on the program/platform as a priority.

However, while I was reviewing the matches and tracking “significant” events I noticed a particularly interesting trend. The Clash system as it is currently implemented seems to be a hype killer.

Once the opponent has clash available the gameplay alters drastically at high level play, people stop pushing for combos (there is actually a turning point for this that happens closer to ~60% into the opponent's second health bar), MB moves are used less, and projectiles and other non-clash-able attacks are used more.

Things I have observed relating to Clash in the top 8 of EVO (though mind they may be correlation, causation or coincidence).

If a player had access to their clash the other player on average did less damage per combo.

If a player had access to their clash both players were less likely to spend meter for anything.

Also there seemed to be a strong correlation between placing well and using the clash system correctly (which is a completely different topic altogether and requires far more data to support the supposition than I can make available at this time).

I feel like based on what I have seen so far in the wild that the clash system failed to do what a comeback mechanic should do, instead of creating hype and tension it seems to reduce both.


Despite the fact that clashes seem to do poorly as a comeback mechanic, they do add a layer of complexity to meter management and in that I would call them a success. I just hope that if they return in some form in the future that Clashes are strongly reviewed and adjust to help boost the hype.

What do you guys think about the clash system? Good for Hype? Bad?

What would you suggest to improve it?

 

[HardlyWalken]

I think it should stay, but if people really feel like it's a hype-killer then change the bars to 10/15/18/20.

There, now it's good for getting out of a killer combo and any damage/life is secondary and costly.

 

[haketh]

Stop worry about people obbsessed moreso with hype than good gameplay.

 

[kabelfritz]

yeah clash can work anticlimatic. but i think the metagame around clash is just evolving right now, i wanna see how it turns out.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Yeah it kills the hype but it is totally necessary and does better the overall gameplay.

It does make some MUs really bad though, wouldnt mind if they toned down the percentages a little.

 

[godlessmode]

Stop worry about people obbsessed moreso with hype than good gameplay.

This is a healthy viewpoint from a "I play games for fun perspective". It's a less healthy viewpoint from an E-Sports perspective, a critical part of E-Sports is excitement, or hype, and being entertaining to the viewer regardless of their investment in actually playing.

For the FGC to become a place where people can make money as players, then viewers need to WANT to watch it for entertainment purposes.

 

[Vagrant]

I actually think the sudden stop in gameplay adds to the hype and gives both the audience and the players a second to catch their breaths and think about what to adjust/reset space/ speculate etc.

It's a unique to injustice and I think you do the originality of the game a disservice by taking it out.

 

[haketh]

Only part of Clash that might need to be changed is how far apart characters are after, it's the only part that really benefits one character archetype over the other. How players aproach the MU when CLash is in play is interesting to me, alot of players have different ways to approach Clash, some go in hella hard, trying to nail their biggest combos to force people to clash early, some go for smaller ones and don't expend resources, other go straight for unclashable damage and getting damage off of whiff punishing with singular strong hits. It's an interesting development to matches.

I'm one who will never be for this whole appealing for spectators shit that seems to be more rampant in the scene, miss when the most important things about a game were "is this fun to play and is it a good comeptetive game".

 

[FrothyOmen]

I think they are pretty lame. The clash itself is cool but the wager mechanic too heavily influences normal gameplay. If it were a plain 'ol breaker it might be too powerful since you are guaranteed one for free on your second lifebar... i dunno. Not like it'll ever change so at least I can say this on-topic: they are definitely hype killers more often than they bring hype.

 

[Tony at Home]

Interesting statistics there

But why would one consider clashes a "comeback mechanic"?

I don't think you can grade their effectiveness by how much they encourage comebacks, given that is not their only purpose. Clash without meter and you risk losing health.

 

[FrothyOmen]

I actually think the sudden stop in gameplay adds to the hype and gives both the audience and the players a second to catch their breaths and think about what to adjust/reset space/ speculate etc.

It's a unique to injustice and I think you do the originality of the game a disservice by taking it out.

I don't think that's what he means though. I think it's the wager mechanic in particular, the fact that the clashes are a long animation isn't really the problem. Screen positioning after wagers is also a factor

 

[187x]

YES!

 

[Tony at Home]

I don't think that's what he means though. I think it's the wager mechanic in particular, the fact that the clashes are a long animation isn't really the problem. Screen positioning after wagers is also a factor

Quote from original post that I'm addressing:

"I feel like based on what I have seen so far in the wild that the clash system failed to do what a comeback mechanic should do, instead of creating hype and tension it seems to reduce both. "

 

[Tony at Home]

^^^ Sorry, meant to add that to my original post, ended up quoting yours for whatever reason. Editing posts seems to be a bit wonky today.

 

[godlessmode]

I don't think that's what he means though. I think it's the wager mechanic in particular, the fact that the clashes are a long animation isn't really the problem. Screen positioning after wagers is also a factor

It's not a single facet of the clash mechanic that is the problem.

But, the actual clash animation/break animation is a positive aspect of it to be honest, it creates a dynamic change from action to rest and back to action.

The resulting spacing? Not so much. And the impact it has on the meta of the gameplay during the second half of the opponents life bar even less so.

 

[godlessmode]

Quote from original post that I'm addressing:

"I feel like based on what I have seen so far in the wild that the clash system failed to do what a comeback mechanic should do, instead of creating hype and tension it seems to reduce both. "

What would you define it as if not a comeback mechanic? The fact that it has a game theory element to it doesn't alter the underlying intent of the mechanic.

 

[FrothyOmen]

It's not a single facet of the clash mechanic that is the problem.

But, the actual clash animation/break animation is a positive aspect of it to be honest, it creates a dynamic change from action to rest and back to action.

The resulting spacing? Not so much. And the impact it has on the meta of the gameplay during the second half of the opponents life bar even less so.

I'm confused. You say it's not a single facet of the clash mechanic then go on to break it down into the same points I used lol

 

[Rathalos]

The only time they bug me is when they happen back to back, which is thankfully pretty rare.

I find them less annoying then breakers in MK9.

 

[Tony at Home]

What would you define it as if not a comeback mechanic? The fact that it has a game theory element to it doesn't alter the underlying intent of the mechanic.

I'd say it's not a "second chance" in the sense of other comeback mechanics. If you spent all your meter on MB attacks that didn't do much to the opponent, a clash is more a threat to you than your opponent. However, if your opponent spent alot of meter on you, but didn't make the most of the damage, a clash works in your favor.

For it to be a comeback mechanic, it has to have some bias towards the player that is losing. But clashes are neutral. They favor the person who has meter, and that person is not always the one losing.

 

[godlessmode]

I'm confused. You say it's not a single facet of the clash mechanic then go on to break it down into the same points I used lol

I like to confuse people! I was agreeing with you.

 

[Tony at Home]

In your data, do you by chance have a record of who had health advantage and who initiated each class on each occurrence?

That would be really useful to examine.

 

[kabelfritz]

This is a healthy viewpoint from a "I play games for fun perspective". It's a less healthy viewpoint from an E-Sports perspective, a critical part of E-Sports is excitement, or hype, and being entertaining to the viewer regardless of their investment in actually playing.

For the FGC to become a place where people can make money as players, then viewers need to WANT to watch it for entertainment purposes.

hype in injustice is different. its so much going on to understand, like working around clash, combo scaling and stuff like that. its more like looking at a piece of art. you enjoy it, but it doesnt make you shout around.

 

[godlessmode]

In your data, do you by chance have a record of who had health advantage and who initiated each class on each occurrence?

That would be really useful to examine.

Rough Data Dump:
26 matches in top 8
21 clashes
8 games with 0 clashes
4 games where both players clashed
1 tied clash

For Player 1 initiated clashes Player 1 won 10 out of 11 clashes losing one self initiated clash by 2 bars of meter
For Player 2 initiated clashes Player 2 won 7 out of 10 clashes with 1 tie and 2 losses (1 by 1 bar and 1 by 2 bars)

I'll need to do some work to figure out who had more health at the time of the clash, I have their key health amounts as events and the times for both those and the clash, but I need to do some work to get it into a visible format.

 

[godlessmode]

hype in injustice is different. its so much going on to understand, like working around clash, combo scaling and stuff like that. its more like looking at a piece of art. you enjoy it, but it doesnt make you shout around.

I guess. And don't get me wrong, I still enjoy watching Injustice. I just think the clash system doesn't help make the game appeal to the spectator, which is relevant if you want E-Sports.

 

[kabelfritz]

I guess. And don't get me wrong, I still enjoy watching Injustice. I just think the clash system doesn't help make the game appeal to the spectator, which is relevant if you want E-Sports.

yeah theres quite a lot of things going on a unknowing spectator might not understand and therefore think the game is boring