Balance Suggestions: Perfect Legend, M2Dave, Forever King, THTB and PLAYING TO W1N

[NightwingDayZero]

I think this is one of those use vs abuse cases like with Wonder Woman's advantage specials. It certainly helps his matchups with the top tier but the bottom characters are abused by this very same tactic and have few options to get around it. It'd help if you'd explain the fringe cases in why it is necessary and how it isn't abusive against the bottom characters.

Perfect Legend @PLAYING TO W1N @THTB @FOREVER KING @general m2dave

So bottom tier characters are less capable of push blocking that top tiers?


Outside of the corner, MB Staff spin would be absolutely useless. You suggest that MB staff spin be taken from +18 to +6, yet Nightwing's only reaching normal at the distance MB staff spin leaves him on block - is 8 frames. What you're asking for is Nightwing's staff stance to be entirely useless mid screen. The move is DESIGNED to work as a buffer for block strings. How do I know this? Because in the launch copy of Injustice MB staff spin used to wall bounce. Yes, it allowed Nightwing to combo effectively mid screen while maintaining advantage on block. They have since changed MB staff spin to send the opponent full screen, and granted MB Ground Pound it's combo potential. This change made staff tremendously less viable mid screen, but complimented the character heavily in the corner.

Back to the subject at hand.

While everyone is so quick to push block Aquaman's trident rush - Nightwing's staff spin has people going full fucking mouth breather.

But say you decide not to push block? The only way you're getting opened up for a combo is either a 22 frame Standing 2 (-2 on block.) or 1db2MB which after having been blocked effectively ends Nightwing's pressure outside of another db2. If you can't occasionally react to a 22 frame overhead, maybe you should reconsider your video game genre?

Or if you still feel so strongly about this suggested nerf. Maybe we could reach a compromise? Myself and a growing number of members in the Nightwing community would be willing to part with Staff stance entirely if you're ready to make Escrima functional with a 1/3 screen 9frame low starter with a phantom hitbox, a nearly non-existent hurtbox, that leads into 30-35% and an extremely ambiguous mixup that stuffs a strong multitude of wakeups or leaves me at +9 on block.

We're not asking for too much are we? (Hint: I'm alluding to a certain green ringed bastard who may have been used to place 2nd at the fighting game world championships who - by the way - is totally fair.)

If it seems at all that I'm being sarcastic or that I'm coming off as an asshole, it's simply because with the suggested nerfs what you're saying is, "You can go fuck yourself Nightwing community, I'd rather that staff stance be a gimmick than push block your character in the corner."

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[rev0lver]

Wait for real though this isn't like being mailed to Ed Boon it's just suggestions. This is getting too srs

 

[Jimmypotato]

Wait for real though this isn't like being mailed to Ed Boon it's just suggestions. This is getting too srs

Ed cares about all of us Revolver, he said so himself, NRS cares about the frame counters.

 

[SZSR]

Revolver is right, this isn't like an end all be all actual patch notes these are simply suggestions, maybe none of these at all will make it into the next patch, who knows. As long as the discussion is insightful and constructive, there's no need to jump to conclusions and take it too seriously.

NightwingDayZero, I admit I do not know a lot about Nightwing, that's why I staged the question to you. I am not making the suggestion so do not ask me to make conjectures as to why someone else wanted it changed. The only reason I mentioned fringe cases in my original response is because not every situation and match up is so cut and dry, you explained it to the best of your ability and I have an understanding from your perspective now.

 

[K7L33THA]

Lex doesn't need zoning buffs gtfo. He's a rushdown/setup character. With that trait and top zoning he'd be broken.

I agree 100 percent on Cyborg buffs. He'd be sooo much better with instant trait and faster target squired.

As a BA main I'd actually be fine with a dmg nerf to mb low lightening rather than its adv. 18 percent for a projectile is a bit crazy.

 

[merc03]

wow making black Adam have 3 ranges for lightning makes no sense. The only thing he has is lightning and dive kicks. NRS already nerf or normalized his dive kick to make it more punishable on block, and now you're trying to make his lightning 3 ranges plus asking to increase Scorpions damage too? Why am I not surprised. These suggestions sound biased to me.

 

[Qwark28]

Tom has lex as bottom 1 though.

i'm going to be on the train with him tomorrow so i'll tell him otherwise until he starts going off about Man of Steel again

its better than offering buffs n Nerf suggestions because of not wanting to learn the matchup or maining that char

 

[1man3letters]

@pkaying to win could u add tarit cooldown buff to the scorpion section please.
feel he needs that more than slightly better damage scaling, 10 seconds for what it is is too long

 

[Qwark28]

Lex doesn't need zoning buffs gtfo. He's a rushdown/setup character. With that trait and top zoning he'd be broken.

I agree 100 percent on Cyborg buffs. He'd be sooo much better with instant trait and faster target squired.

As a BA main I'd actually be fine with a dmg nerf to mb low lightening rather than its adv. 18 percent for a projectile is a bit crazy.

the only thing ex lightnings frames on block do is have a divekick threat on forward dashes.

 

[Qwark28]

wow making black Adam have 3 ranges for lightning makes no sense. The only thing he has is lightning and dive kicks. NRS already nerf or normalized his dive kick to make it more punishable on block, and now you're trying to make his lightning 3 ranges plus asking to increase Scorpions damage too? Why am I not surprised. These suggestions sound biased to me.

so I'm not the only one... This is why you don't even consider people who you know will be biased for any suggestions.

 

[K7L33THA]

the only thing ex lightnings frames on block do is have a divekick threat on forward dashes.

You can check them with a black magic or another lightning off blocked mb low lightning.

 

[Duck Nation]

Mostly a strong list. There's some really goofy shit in here, though, and some things that were omitted that really should be addressed. Just off the top of my head, for example - how does this fix some bad losses, like Hawkgirl against Sinestro or Deathstroke? She'd still be the star of ANAL BIRD BITCHES 5 in those matches. Also, is there any reason at all to keep Superman's trait armor-breaking? Is there some particular reason he should be allowed to suddenly get a huge step up on Bane, Doomsday and Lex?

 

[Qwark28]

You can check them with a black magic or another lightning off blocked mb low lightning.

only on 4 chars or so. Still doesn't make him any easier to deal with. Mb lightning shouldn't chip as much or do more than 12%

 

[M2Dave]

I would like to mention again that the fact that Deathstroke has a great anti-zoning 10 frame special move, the best f+3 in the game, a very good anti aerial attack, superb wake up options, a safe 50/50 mix up, and above average (albeit worthless in many match ups) zoning and is still outside the top 10 speaks volumes about the game's lack of balance. The same is not just true for Deathstroke, but several other characters.

Here are some facts that are mind-boggling.

- Superman zones better in many match ups than Cyborg, Deathstroke, and Sinestro, who are supposed to be zoning characters by design.

- Batman has a better corner game than Lobo and Shazam, who are supposed to be rush down characters by design.

- Aquaman, a footsie based character, has a special move that automatically tracks you anywhere on the screen. Sinestro, a zoning character, has a similar special move, but it does not track automatically, is a lot slower, and twice as punishable.

- Martian Manhunter has a safe teleport that is an overhead to approach his opponents. Lex Luthor, who has the largest hitbox in the game, the worst dashing in terms of recovery, and very slow projectiles that hardly do any damage, has no such special move.

No wonder you only see a handful of characters at tournaments.

 

[deg222]

For Harley:
-Her b2 hitbox needs to be slightly increased in height. It's a great a poke against characters who stand, but when fighting a floating character, the range is decreased by half. Here's a vid I made a while back demonstrating this:

-Her throw range needs to be increased, you cannot throw someone unless they're point blank. Prime example of this, you're not in range to throw Killer Frost after a blocked slide.

 

[RunwayMafia]

Tiger Wong Espio Boodendorf @AspyxiaDyslexia DanCock EmInEnTShAdOw regulas Eternal Blaze Konqrr HawkGirl's...
Few things we've all discussed in a nut shell:
1.) B2 is not a true mid...it has some weird properties that allow it to whiff over a crouched opponent due to the exhale/inhale of the opponent (not kidding)
2.) B3 needs to be slightly faster. It's inconsistent to connect after 123, 12~Wing Evade 2, 32~MB Mace toss, etc., etc., and the MB version of B3 get's stuffed CONSTANTLY by jump in attacks and their follow ups...thus robbing the HG player of a perfectly good armored B3.
3.) The pop up animation/recovery from a whiffed MB Mace Toss is absolutely wretched...-100 or some shit...needs to go...

 

[rev0lver]

- Martian Manhunter has a safe teleport that is an overhead to approach his opponents. Lex Luthor, who has the largest hitbox in the game, the worst dashing in terms of recovery, and very slow projectiles that hardly do any damage, has no such special move.

Wait how are you comparing these things haha. I don't get it.

 

[KombatNerd]

Mostly a strong list. There's some really goofy shit in here, though, and some things that were omitted that really should be addressed. Just off the top of my head, for example - how does this fix some bad losses, like Hawkgirl against Sinestro or Deathstroke? She'd still be the star of ANAL BIRD BITCHES 5 in those matches. Also, is there any reason at all to keep Superman's trait armor-breaking? Is there some particular reason he should be allowed to suddenly get a huge step up on Bane, Doomsday and Lex?

Supes' villains (and Bane) must not be allowed to win!

 

[M2Dave]

Circus, for the most part, each of us only talked about the characters we play and know. FOREVER KING has a very good Raven, and I do not believe that he made any suggestions.

Anyway, the following characters definitely do not need any buffs.

Batgirl
Batman
Black Adam
Doomsday
Killer Frost
Green Lantern
Martian Manhunter
Superman
The Flash
Wonder Woman
Zod (the trait glitches must be removed, though).

 

[M2Dave]

Wait how are you comparing these things haha. I don't get it.

Both are set up characters.

But I was told that you believe Lex Luthor to be tournament viable.

LOL.

 

[TJ Casters]

Circus, for the most part, each of us only talked about the characters we play and know. FOREVER KING has a very good Raven, and I do not believe that he made any suggestions.

Anyway, the following characters definitely do not need any buffs.

Batgirl
Batman
Black Adam
Doomsday
Killer Frost
Martian Manhunter
Superman
The Flash
Wonder Woman
Zod (the trait glitches must be removed, though).

See my post regarding midscreen meterless damage and other strings besides F23.
These go along with the OP's suggestions, except for the damage nerf. I made another post to fix corner damage.

 

[REO]

I would like to mention again that the fact that Deathstroke has a great anti-zoning 10 frame special move, the best f+3 in the game, a very good anti aerial attack, superb wake up options, a safe 50/50 mix up, and above average (albeit worthless in many match ups) zoning and is still outside the top 10 speaks volumes about the game's lack of balance. The same is not just true for Deathstroke, but several other characters.

Here are some facts that are mind-boggling.

- Superman zones better in many match ups than Cyborg, Deathstroke, and Sinestro, who are supposed to be zoning characters by design.

- Batman has a better corner game than Lobo and Shazam, who are supposed to be rush down characters by design.

- Aquaman, a footsie based character, has a special move that automatically tracks you anywhere on the screen. Sinestro, a zoning character, has a similar special move, but it does not track automatically, is a lot slower, and twice as punishable.

- Martian Manhunter has a safe teleport that is an overhead to approach his opponents. Lex Luthor, who has the largest hitbox in the game, the worst dashing in terms of recovery, and very slow projectiles that hardly do any damage, has no such special move.

No wonder you only see a handful of characters at tournaments.

did you seriously just say a "handful of characters at tournaments" and make a post about imbalance and then brought up mmh as one of ur points? seriously?

my bad mmh is all over the tournament scene and has been stocking up on the top 8s

lex has armor, a 6f punisher that gives a hard knockdown and probes to allow him to maneuver in a little easier

do u even play any good lex?

mmh and lex are 100% not comparable at all

thats like saying shazam and bane are alike cause they have command grabs

its better 2 hold off on posting on characters u dont know extremely well to avoid spreading poor information

 

[Duck Nation]

Both are set up characters.

But I was told that you believe Lex Luthor to be tournament viable.

LOL.

Tournament viability is a fuzzy question. It's probably not a phrase that should be getting tossed around in this thread, since its exact definition is open to interpretation.

Lex is one of those characters who does pretty well for himself in a lot of matches, but has a few which are damn near impossible. I worry that this list doesn't really necessarily address those incredibly weak matchups, for the characters who have them (and there are number of those).

 

[AssassiN]

Who made the suggestion to nerf his Staff Spin MB?
+6 would make that move utterly useless midscreen and it's the only thing he can fall back on.

This shit was already discussed in the NW forums where WE don't ask for buffs or for nerfs but fixes where Escrima Fury whiffs and Staff Spin MB whiffs on some characters. And it would be nice if Flipkick would cross-up the big characters in this game.

That is all we require, if you take away the use of Staff Spin MB then I want his Escrima D1 to be 6-7 frames.

 

[Akromaniac27]

I agree with most aside from Wonder Woman(yes I main her). Point is though, her lasso grab is a high hit, easily duckable and leaves her open. OTG isn't plus on block expect only if you hit then at the very tip of their feet, which then leaves for almost no follow up due to the distance. The OTG itself if a topic of however you want to decide though, I have to input on that