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What do you think of these suggested system changes?

Vulcan Hades

Vulcan Hades

Champion
1. Bounce Cancelling costs 1 meter instead of 2

Reason: They are rarely used because of the high cost but I do believe they have potential to help some characters offense. Bounce cancelling is pretty useless in combos so it would mostly be used to make unsafe strings safe, as a FADC and to extend blockstrings/frame traps. I think it's an interesting mechanic but 2 meters might be too much (considering the game has pushblock).


2. Pushblock becomes +5 frame advantage instead of +0

Reason: There are situations in the corner where pushblocking doesn't really help you much. For example vs Doomsday, Superman and maybe Martian Manhunter. Being +0 doesn't help you get out of the corner because the pushblock puts you at a range where these characters excel and you still have to guess/respect their options too much. Making pushblock around +5 frame advantage would turn pushblocking into an actual "alpha counter" and allow characters to reverse pressure instead of simply returning to neutral.
 
GodsLonelyman

GodsLonelyman

Kombatant
Both are really good suggestions. Quite logical. The meterburn cancels and current pushblock aren;t very logical/practical.
 
kronspik

kronspik

Mortal
Do bounce cancels currently have armor? If they do, I would remove the armor if you lower the cost.
 
Lt. Boxy Angelman

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
kronspik said:
Do bounce cancels currently have armor? If they do, I would remove the armor if you lower the cost.
Click to expand...

Meh. Why?
I mean, there's only two times you're gonna use it: mid-combo, or mid-blockstring.
If it's mid-combo, the armor's irrelevant.
But if it's mid-blockstring and they try to interrupt, you just made a right read, and armor is your reward.
 
Circus

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
1. - Dangerous
It costs 2 bars because it's not only giving armor but it is also canceling a move. It's kind of a dangerous thing to make it 1 bar only too because a character like Killer Frost with a 19frame F3 (and slide of course) would become immensely more powerful whereas some would hardly benefit from it at all.

It'd throw balance really out of whack.

2. - Also really dangerous.
Remember, Superman? If he had the ability to just pushblock and be at +anything he could start his free F23 pressure just by spending a meter on block!!

It'd just be wayyyy too powerful for some characters and likewise just be okay or useless for others.
 
Tony at Home

Tony at Home

Master
Number 1... maybe...

I know with Lex I never get enough damage out of extending combos with bounce cancels to justify spending the extra meter. But then

My biggest combo with 1 bar of meter is 40 % (excluding setup damage). Biggest with a bounce cancel (3 bars of meter total) is only 45 percent, so it isn't worth it.

Though I'm not sure how much other characters can get out of it. Might be ridiculously huge for some.

But number 2 feels like it would devastate certain characters that rely on getting up close.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
So, doomsday, a rushdown oriented character has to be indirectly nerfed because he thrives in the corner? Pushblocking does exactly what its supposed to, let you breath for a sec or two to escape the pressure, are you really telling me that the opponent reinitiating pressure requires a system change fix?

You know youll pushblock, your opponent doesn't, plan better so you don't get overwhelmed, sorry that it's not an "escape rushdown forever" button.

not to mention that'd be fucked up, think superman is too good when pushblocked in the corner? How about when all the rushdown character get a free +8 frametrap when their opponent counterpokes them with their back in the corner?

you touched my superman? pushblock and ima f23 yo ass
 
Vulcan Hades

Vulcan Hades

Champion
Circus said:
1. - Dangerous
It costs 2 bars because it's not only giving armor but it is also canceling a move. It's kind of a dangerous thing to make 1 bar only too because a character like Killer Frost with a 19frame F3 (and slide of course) would become immensely more powerful whereas some would hardly benefit from it at all.

It'd throw balance really out of whack.

2. - Also really dangerous.
Remember, Superman? If he had the ability to just pushblock and be at +anything he could start his free F23 pressure just by spending a meter on block!!

It'd just be wayyyy too powerful for some characters and likewise just be okay or useless for others.
Click to expand...
Good points.

Yeah, it might be wiser to just leave things the way they are lol. As much as I would like these changes, some characters might be able to abuse them more than others so it could end up creating more imbalance than anything.
 
kronspik

kronspik

Mortal
Lt. Box said:
Meh. Why?
I mean, there's only two times you're gonna use it: mid-combo, or mid-blockstring.
If it's mid-combo, the armor's irrelevant.
But if it's mid-blockstring and they try to interrupt, you just made a right read, and armor is your reward.
Click to expand...
You can already get a free overhead anywhere in your pressure using it. Some b3s grant advantage on block and I'm sure there are bounce cancel dash cancel situations that lead to advantage on block as well. Having armor on top of that is overkill for 1 bar. I honestly feel like 2 bars is too much and 1 bar is too little.
 
BaronVonRupert

BaronVonRupert

"Mere child's play."
the bounce cancel can stuff pushblock. the way it works right now is you bet 2 bars to blow up their 1. might hurt an already underused mechanic if you were spending equal meter.
 
Vulcan Hades

Vulcan Hades

Champion
Qwark28 said:
You know youll pushblock, your opponent doesn't, plan better so you don't get overwhelmed, sorry that it's not an "escape rushdown forever" button.
Click to expand...
I guess I just don't like pushblock in Injustice.

In other games, alpha counters usually give you a knockdown or frame advantage. So it's worth the meter. In this game I just feel like "keep blocking" and "mash backdash" are better options than pushblocking (except vs a few characters where you don't want to deal with unreactable mixups).

Chris G used like a million pushblocks vs PL's Doomsday and it didn't matter because DD either charges with MB Venom or jump splash and you're back at square zero. Pushblock in a lot of cases is a waste of meter whether people are smart enough to realize it or not.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Vulcan Hades said:
I guess I just don't like pushblock in Injustice.

In other games, alpha counters usually give you a knockdown or frame advantage. So it's worth the meter. In this game I just feel like "keep blocking" and "mash backdash" are better options than pushblocking (except vs a few characters where you don't want to deal with unreactable mixups).

Chris G used like a million pushblocks vs PL's Doomsday and it didn't matter because DD either charges with MB Venom or jump splash and you're back at square zero. Pushblock in a lot of cases is a waste of meter whether people are smart enough to realize it or not.
Click to expand...
The only time you pushblock doomsday is when you have more meter, you need strategy to use it, it's not a straightforward press a button and you're off the hook.

Pushblock has to be used smartly, you don't really need to pushblock unless you wanna hold a lead, make a comeback, force someone to trade bars with you if they get in with a MB move
We haven't even begun breaking down matchups to the full with every chracter, how do you know pushblock won't force a character to spend bars when they don't need to? Meter building will factor into matchups and pushblock will be a good MU deciding factor just like in BA-DD.

And if chris knew how to use pushblock and didn't just find out about it then he'd have used it vs DJT @ evo when he had the bars to spend.
 
Pho Cubic

Pho Cubic

Sérieusement Sabrewulf peut aller en enfer.
It'd be nice with the bounce cancels if cancelling into b3/f3 cost 1 bar of meter & adding armor cost another bar of meter. When the game first came out I was playing Bane & had pretty damaging combos with him w/o venom, but I had to use a bounce cancel. It sucked because on hit I don't need the stupid armor, so I wish you could cancel into f3/b3 by pressing ->-> or <-<- at the end of a string, & if you want the armor then you hit MB along with that.

As others have said above, having the ability to cancel into b3/f3 AND the armor for one bar of meter would be pretty broken, but I think if you could cancel into b3/f3 itself w/o the armor for 1 bar and have the armor for 2 bars, it would definitely improve the game.
 
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