Can someone explain wake up attack system in this game?

[IFA Sadistt]

Tom Brady's explanation was very sub-par, couldn't tell what he was trying to say - mainly, the whole "impact frame." Is he trying to say first ACTIVE frame of the move?

'some moves have invincibility on their start up while some moves have it until the first frame of impact' 'If your invincible wake up attack does not make contact on the first impact frame, the move loses its invincibility and can be beat out by or trade with your opponents attack'

So is he trying to say some special moves have invincibility only on start-up while some special moves have invincibility that extends to the FIRST Active frame that makes "impact" (whatever that means)

Still confused. Also, how do you know exactly which special have what kind of properties on wake up? It seems like nobody understands it clearly enough to really explain it.

 

[GodsLonelyman]

Simply put, the wakeup system is garbage.

 

[IFA Sadistt]

"If your invincible wake up attack does not make contact on the first impact frame, the move loses its invincibility and can be beat out by or trade with your opponents attack"

Okay so I've been trying to wrap my head around his cryptic language, so correct me if i'm wrong here.

He's saying that there are 2 types of wake-up attack properties:

1. Some moves only have invincibility on the start-up frames.
2. Some moves' invincibility extends to the first ACTIVE frame, so if it does not make contact (hit or not) on the first active frame, there is no longer invincibility on it.

So for example, Batman's slide starts at 16 frames. If it is the 2nd property, the invincbility lasts 17 frames right? (extending to the first active frame)
And if it is the first property, it would only have 16 frames (startup) of invincbility?

So, a delayed meaty (accounting for the speed of the wake-up attack, so it's active after the wake-up attack's invincibility finishes) would always trade with the first property, and get beat out by the 2nd?

 

[TheRFG]

i think impact means the blow the opponent lands on the character waking up

 

[CrazySlasher]

Wait, there's a wake up system in the game?

 

[tataki]

So for example, Batman's slide starts at 16 frames. If it is the 2nd property, the invincbility lasts 17 frames right? (extending to the first active frame)
And if it is the first property, it would only have 16 frames (startup) of invincbility?

So, a delayed meaty (accounting for the speed of the wake-up attack, so it's active after the wake-up attack's invincibility finishes) would always trade with the first property, and get beat out by the 2nd?

If something has a 9 frame startup it means it starts hitting on frame 9. If the invincibility is up to the first active frames this means the move stops being invincible at frame 10.

 

[IFA Sadistt]

If something has a 9 frame startup it means it starts hitting on frame 9. If the invincibility is up to the first active frames this means the move stops being invincible at frame 10.

lol, no, that's simply wrong.

 

[tataki]

lol, no, that's simply wrong.

What's wrong about it? That's how you read frame data in fighting games. If NRS chose to present things differently from the standard then lol have fun with that...

Also why are you opening a thread asking questions, and then telling me I'm wrong when I answer them? If you have such confidence in your knowledge why did you open a thread and ask questions?

 

[Alien Substance]

Okay so I've been trying to wrap my head around his cryptic language, so correct me if i'm wrong here.

He's saying that there are 2 types of wake-up attack properties:

1. Some moves only have invincibility on the start-up frames.
2. Some moves' invincibility extends to the first ACTIVE frame, so if it does not make contact (hit or not) on the first active frame, there is no longer invincibility on it.

So for example, Batman's slide starts at 16 frames. If it is the 2nd property, the invincbility lasts 17 frames right? (extending to the first active frame)
And if it is the first property, it would only have 16 frames (startup) of invincbility?

So, a delayed meaty (accounting for the speed of the wake-up attack, so it's active after the wake-up attack's invincibility finishes) would always trade with the first property, and get beat out by the 2nd?

The first one means a move has invincibility on the start-up frames, but may lose it before the active frames kick in.
Second one is correct.

Still confused. Also, how do you know exactly which special have what kind of properties on wake up?

You don't: You learn from trying it out and whether or not you consistently get blown up for it.

 

[Rampage254]

Just mash wake up attacks

 

[Minh Giang]

it mean the moves have invicinble frames from its first start up frame. example: If wakeup attack version has 10 invincible frames, and the move has 8 frame on start up, so 2 frames of the first active frames have invincibility too.
hope you guys won't bash me if i'm wrong lol.

 

[IFA Sadistt]

What's wrong about it? That's how you read frame data in fighting games. If NRS chose to present things differently from the standard then lol have fun with that...

Also why are you opening a thread asking questions, and then telling me I'm wrong when I answer them? If you have such confidence in your knowledge why did you open a thread and ask questions?

Because the standard which is pretty much set by Capcom fighters are like that. 3f start up means its start up is exactly that - 3f. it doesn't mean it's active on the 3rd. THAT's how you read frame data in fighting games buddy, so unless NRS chose to present things differently from the standard, you're wrong.

Also, my question had nothing to do with how to read frame data, which i know how to do.

 

[tataki]

Because the standard which is pretty much set by Capcom fighters are like that. 3f start up means it's start up is exactly that - 3f. it doesn't mean it's active on the 3rd. THAT's how you read frame data in fighting games buddy, so unless NRS chose to present things differently from the standard, you're wrong.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/content.php?104-Reading-and-Using-Frame-Data-Part-1
"Startup is the time starting from when a move initiates to the first hitting frame."
May's 5K data:

Startup: 9
Active: 6
Recovery: 9
Static Difference: -3

1st active frame as you can see in the picture: 9



This is for Japanese fighting games, including Capcom titles.

If you took your "startup" definition from eventhubs or something, the way they described it is MISLEADING!

 

[Famous Amos]

Start-up frames: the number of frames of animation which take place before the move is capable of hitting.

 

[IFA Sadistt]

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/content.php?104-Reading-and-Using-Frame-Data-Part-1
"Startup is the time starting from when a move initiates to the first hitting frame."
May's 5K data:

Startup: 9
Active: 6
Recovery: 9
Static Difference: -3

1st active frame as you can see in the picture: 9



This is for Japanese fighting games, including Capcom titles

If you took your "startup" definition from eventhubs or something that the way they described it is MISLEADING!

But that can't be true, because the only reason why the fastest reversal you can truely-safe jump in SF4 is 4f reversals is the fact that the landing frame of a jump-in is 4f... If what you say is true, it should be impossible to safe jump 4f reversals with a jump-in attack in sf4, because what you're saying is that it becomes active on the 4th frame, which in sf4, you're still recovering from your landing frames of your air attack.

How do you explain that??

 

[Famous Amos]

http://testyourmight.com/threads/injustice-frame-data-is-not-correct-confirmed.30335/
well apparently this is a thing :S

 

[tataki]

But that can't be true, because the only reason why the fastest reversal you can truely-safe jump in SF4 is 4f reversals is the fact that the landing frame of a jump-in is 4f... If what you say is true, it should be impossible to safe jump 4f reversals with a jump-in attack in sf4, because what you're saying is that it becomes active on the 4th frame, which in sf4, you're still recovering from your landing frames of your air attack.

How do you explain that??

You can't NORMALLY safe jump 3 frame reversals purely via safe jump timing in SF4. What you do is you use very specific setups that enable your hitbox to reach, but keeping your hurtbox too far away for the 3 frame reversal hitbox to reach you back, resulting in the reversal only being able reach you on the 5th+ frame, allowing for a safe jump.

Start-up frames: the number of frames of animation which take place before the move is capable of hitting.

You have simply repeated the eventhubs half-assed definition which I clearly stated is misleading.

 

[IFA Sadistt]

You can't NORMALLY safe jump 3 frame reversals purely via safe jump timing in SF4. What you do is you use very specific setups that enable your hitbox to reach, but keeping your hurtbox too far away for the 3 frame reversal hitbox to reach you back, resulting in the reversal only being able reach you on the 5th frame, allowing for a safe jump.

I never said anything about safe jumping a 3f reversal. There's a reason why I said the fastest reversal you can TRULY safe jump in SF4 is 4f reversal. Like I said, how do you explain it? SF4 has 4 frames of landing frame from an air-attack, so if what you say is true, it is impossible to safe jump 4f reversals, because you're saying 4f reversals become active on the 4th frame.

Also, THAT's the reason why you can't truly-safe jump 3f reversals, it is BECAUSE the start up is 3f, and it becomes active on the 4th. It is hitting the last frame of landing recovery of a jump-in attack.

I would love to hear your explanation on this.

 

[tataki]

Your response makes NO SENSE...
Landing recovery=4 frames.
Ryu's DP=3 frames. Can't safe jump.
Sagat/Cammy's DP=5 frames. Can safe jump.
If a character had a 4 frame DP you wouldn't be able to safe jump it either.

But how THE FUCK does this raw data suddenly make Ryu's DP 4 frames and not 3?

Here's yet another clear explanation:
http://sf4answers.com/questions/324/what-is-a-safe-jump
from the 1st table:
"3rd startup/1st active frame of SRK, hit opponent"
3rd startup frame IS the 1st active frame.

 

[Famous Amos]

Why are we talking about start up frames for a different game?
Although the way they should apply should be universal, for injustice, as pig said the data is wrong (at least for deathstroke) so who's to say its not wrong for batman or whoever else and that you all just mean the same thing but re arguing over a one frame difference when you're talking about the same frames

 

[smokey]

Impact Frame = The first frame a move can hit on.

i12 = Hits on frame 12 (becomes active)

I wont even start trying to understand what you are arguing about regarding Startup and Active frames, because you are both trying to reference different sources, which could both be correct, but what Toms explanation was saying is basically this;

Example attack;
i10 move. Impacts on frame 10.

The move has invincibility up until its impact frame. So it is considered invincible until frame 10. From that point onwards, it is no longer invincible, and you can hit or trade with it.

 

[IFA Sadistt]

Your response makes NO SENSE...
Landing recovery=4 frames.
Ryu's DP=3 frames. Can't safe jump.
Sagat/Cammy's DP=5 frames. Can safe jump.
If a character had a 4 frame DP you wouldn't be able to safe jump it either.

But how THE FUCK does this raw data suddenly make Ryu's DP 4 frames and not 3?

Here's yet another clear explanation:
http://sf4answers.com/questions/324/what-is-a-safe-jump
from the 1st table:
"3rd startup/1st active frame of SRK, hit opponent"
3rd startup frame IS the 1st active frame.

You CAN safe jump 4f DPs. I've safe jumped Guile's flash kicks, Dudley's EX dp, and Deejay's Ex dp, literally countless times.

It makes perfect sense.

Landing recovery frame from a jump in = 4 frames. Meaning, you can get hit any where in those 4 frames.

Ryu's DP = 3 frame START up. Can't safe jump because it'll hit you on the 4th frame of your recovery.
Guile's Flash kicks = 4 frame START up. CAN safe jump because it becomes ACTIVE on the 5th frame, which means you're able to block because the 4 frames of landing recovery has ended.
Fei Long's DP = 5 frame start up. CAN safe jump because the reason above, except that it becomes active on the 6th.​

 

[IFA Sadistt]

If you're done google-fuing like a mad man and listing wrong sources from 2009, let me know, because the game's been out for quite a while, and last time i checked, there's a reason why you can safe jump 4f reversals and above and not 3f and below.

 

[tataki]

I give actual sources and explain everything in detail (including why safejumping can work against reversals that are "too fast") while your reasoning is "I'm right because I decided I'm right."

I'm done here.

 

[IFA Sadistt]

I give actual sources and explain everything in detail (including why safejumping can work against reversals that are "too fast") while your reasoning is "I'm right because I decided I'm right."

I'm done here.

LOL and those sources are wrong, just like you. You still can't explain why you can safe jump 4f reversals can ya? The fact that you said "If a character had a 4 frame DP you wouldn't be able to safe jump it either," speaks volume of your actual knowledge of SF4 series if you had any. Anyone can google-fu like you did in 5 minutes without having any real knowledge of the game and sound like you're on to something hahaha.

Do you really want me to give you a video of a 4f safe jump in Sf4 series? I didn't think so kid.

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV_AE/Guile

just in case you don't think there's 4f dp in this game lolol...