Imbalance isn't the real problem - Short-sightedness is...

[tataki]

When a game is young, NO ONE really knows how to play it. Sure, people do their best with their few months of experience with it, but no one can know now how the game will look like a year or two from now, when the level of play is more refined and less sloppy, and when people UNDERSTAND the game better.

When a game is young, some characters and simple tactics seem dominant at first, but may later fall off as everyone's level of play increases.

http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/06/guest-editorial-wesker-not-overpowered-by-renegade/

How are your current complaints any different from those 2011 complaints the article in the link is addressing? They aren't...

The hard part isn't to admit "yeah I overreacted" in hindsight, but to realize you are overreacting RIGHT NOW and be able to realize the future will be different as you improve in the game, without the game itself needing to change. Any minute you spent bitching on a forum or a stream is a minute you could be spending exploring the game further. Learn from other communities' mistakes instead of letting history repeat itself.

The people at NRS work really hard and really want their "baby" to be good, but they are also still inexperienced to know when to change and what to change, compared to Japanese FG developers who have been dealing with careful balancing for 10+ years. The fact that the publisher forces them to do all the changes early instead of letting the games develop for, let's say, a year before each patch makes the problem much worse. (This would be a good time for a Super MK9: Balance and Glitch Fixes Edition but it's not happening any time soon...)

While you can't change that, you can indeed decrease the amount of needlessly hysterical "noise" you create and make your feedback better and more focused compared to "nerf flavor of the month tactic I don't know how to deal with."

Look at that UMVC3 article again and please give it some thought...

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Fix Superman, and you have a much better game.

Plain and simple, and I know I'm not the only one who thinks so.

That being said, I agree. There's too much bitching and not enough logic or reason.

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

Hey, a thread that actually makes sense, but it has no business on tym. You see, we normalize our problems early, nip it in the butt sort of speak, because who really has the time to sit and wait around for a yearly patch? Not here, we nerf our problems every two weeks. Your next Supes. Hopefully by the time NRS is finally done patching this game everyone vs everyone will be a 5vs5 to insure absolutely no one character will excel over another.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Fix Superman, and you have a much better game.

Plain and simple, and I know I'm not the only one who thinks so.

That being said, I agree. There's too much bitching and not enough logic or reason.

"Let me just do exactly what the thread says not to do, and then claim to agree"

OP you are totally right but prepare to be flamed.

 

[trufenix]

Hey, a thread that actually makes sense, but it has no business on tym. You see, we normalize our problems early, nip it in the butt sort of speak, because who really has the time to sit and wait around for a yearly patch? Not here, we nerf our problems every two weeks. Your next Supes. Hopefully by the time NRS is finally done patching this game everyone vs everyone will be a 5vs5 to insure absolutely no one character will excel over another.

Do you really think if NRS "normalized" problems with the frequency and intensity inflamatory posts like this seem to iterate characters like Aquaman and Frost and Stroke and BA would be where they are? For all the bitching about bitching about patching that goes on here there is little actual evidence that supports OH NO NRS HAS RUINED THE GAME again.

Superman is just the latest standout, lets see what NRS actually does with him before we get all M2Dave about what NRS MIGHT do to him.

 

[Tim Static]

It's not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent but the ones most responsive to change. - Darwin

 

[shaowebb]

I dont see a reason why Superman should be so plus on block. I'm sorry, but with damage like that and tools for everything ...just no.

Cmon +20 on block heat zap that leads to dashup +5 on block F2D13 , +2 on block 11, +1 on block 111 all from full screen. Plus, his other strings average only -2 if they are negative on block at all which means if you answer with anything of more than 8 frames he still gets off his 6 frame low which turns stuff into a trade or punish scenario for him a lot of times. Thats just a bit much when you average around 50% with a trait that lets you destroy armored moves which messes with wakeup. Dont Forget he can mix up his pressure strins with low zap as well to screw with the just block it crowd and he advances too far forward for the just back dash it crowd. Also he can box dash for crossups just for kicks.

He is allowed to be good, but this much advantage on everything with options to screw your block up during his strings AND 50% damage mid screen alongside of an armor ignoring trait and 2 frame super that stuffs everything is too good. No amount of frame argument and match footage can prove otherwise.

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

Do you really think if NRS "normalized" problems with the frequency and intensity inflamatory posts like this seem to iterate characters like Aquaman and Frost and Stroke and BA would be where they are? For all the bitching about bitching about patching that goes on here there is little actual evidence that supports OH NO NRS HAS RUINED THE GAME again.

Superman is just the latest standout, lets see what NRS actually does with him before we get all M2Dave about what NRS MIGHT do to him.

I'm just being sarcastic dude haha. I don't think the game is being ruined or anything. I'm just stereotyping what I see on here that's all.

 

[Protagonist_1]

I do agree with this post, for example, there wasn't a single superman at UFGT top 8, and he was a lot better during that time. The only reason why superman is creating such hysteria now is because of EVO, and prior at CEO it was scorpion. If they do nerf Supes, the community will move on to jump on the next character.

It's practically MK9 all over again, and the same WILL happen to MK10. This is why I'm not getting my hopes up, and jumping on the mk10 bandwagon just yet.

I'll just end with this quote from George Santayana:
"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it"

 

[THTB]

I dont see a reason why Superman should be so plus on block. I'm sorry, but with damage like that and tools for everything ...just no.

Cmon +20 on block heat zap that leads to dashup +5 on block F2D13 , +2 on block 11, +1 on block 111 all from full screen. Plus, his other strings average only -2 if they are negative on block at all which means if you answer with anything of more than 8 frames he still gets off his 6 frame low which turns stuff into a trade or punish scenario for him a lot of times. Thats just a bit much when you average around 50% with a trait that lets you destroy armored moves which messes with wakeup. Dont Forget he can mix up his pressure strins with low zap as well to screw with the just block it crowd and he advances too far forward for the just back dash it crowd. Also he can box dash for crossups just for kicks.

He is allowed to be good, but this much advantage on everything with options to screw your block up during his strings AND 50% damage mid screen alongside of an armor ignoring trait and 2 frame super that stuffs everything is too good. No amount of frame argument and match footage can prove otherwise.

Heat zap can be ducked. 1 is a high as well.

 

[kabelfritz]

crying for buffs & nerfs is playing to win layer 4

 

[Relaxedstate]

Heat zap can be ducked. 1 is a high as well.

It is amazing to me that this continues to be knowledge people need to be told... sigh

 

[Zoidberg747]

I dont see a reason why Superman should be so plus on block. I'm sorry, but with damage like that and tools for everything ...just no.

Cmon +20 on block heat zap that leads to dashup +5 on block F2D13 , +2 on block 11, +1 on block 111 all from full screen. Plus, his other strings average only -2 if they are negative on block at all which means if you answer with anything of more than 8 frames he still gets off his 6 frame low which turns stuff into a trade or punish scenario for him a lot of times. Thats just a bit much when you average around 50% with a trait that lets you destroy armored moves which messes with wakeup. Dont Forget he can mix up his pressure strins with low zap as well to screw with the just block it crowd and he advances too far forward for the just back dash it crowd. Also he can box dash for crossups just for kicks.

He is allowed to be good, but this much advantage on everything with options to screw your block up during his strings AND 50% damage mid screen alongside of an armor ignoring trait and 2 frame super that stuffs everything is too good. No amount of frame argument and match footage can prove otherwise.

Why the hell would he ever use those strings? Why the hell qould you ever be blocking heat zap(duck, then dash. Quite simple). Block advantage is not everything when it comes to a string, you also have to look at its range, startup, holes in the string, and what the character can get off that string. If NRS were to nerf those strings it would literally change nothing about the character.

 

[Impractical Joker]

I dont see a reason why Superman should be so plus on block. I'm sorry, but with damage like that and tools for everything ...just no.

Cmon +20 on block heat zap that leads to dashup +5 on block F2D13 , +2 on block 11, +1 on block 111 all from full screen. Plus, his other strings average only -2 if they are negative on block at all which means if you answer with anything of more than 8 frames he still gets off his 6 frame low which turns stuff into a trade or punish scenario for him a lot of times. Thats just a bit much when you average around 50% with a trait that lets you destroy armored moves which messes with wakeup. Dont Forget he can mix up his pressure strins with low zap as well to screw with the just block it crowd and he advances too far forward for the just back dash it crowd. Also he can box dash for crossups just for kicks.

He is allowed to be good, but this much advantage on everything with options to screw your block up during his strings AND 50% damage mid screen alongside of an armor ignoring trait and 2 frame super that stuffs everything is too good. No amount of frame argument and match footage can prove otherwise.

Superman has only one good overhead that is difficult to react to and it's off a jump air dash. Literally every other move he has can be duck blocked. Watch Rico Suave play KDZ and see how he just let him pressure him with f23 breath in the corner for like 30 seconds straight before finally reacting and hitting Superman. There is not that much chip in this game.

Also, if you are blocking heat zap high then you aren't doing it right. Duck or jump it and if he's close you get a full d2 combo

 

[nfdsallwd]

+5 on block F2D13

dude, you are a moderator and you don't even try to check your stuff before typing. f2d13 is possible only on hit, on block it will stop after f2d1 which is minus on block.

 

[Vote4theGote]

I dont see a reason why Superman should be so plus on block. I'm sorry, but with damage like that and tools for everything ...just no.

Cmon +20 on block heat zap that leads to dashup +5 on block F2D13 , +2 on block 11, +1 on block 111 all from full screen. Plus, his other strings average only -2 if they are negative on block at all which means if you answer with anything of more than 8 frames he still gets off his 6 frame low which turns stuff into a trade or punish scenario for him a lot of times. Thats just a bit much when you average around 50% with a trait that lets you destroy armored moves which messes with wakeup. Dont Forget he can mix up his pressure strins with low zap as well to screw with the just block it crowd and he advances too far forward for the just back dash it crowd. Also he can box dash for crossups just for kicks.

He is allowed to be good, but this much advantage on everything with options to screw your block up during his strings AND 50% damage mid screen alongside of an armor ignoring trait and 2 frame super that stuffs everything is too good. No amount of frame argument and match footage can prove otherwise.

In roughly 1hr, you shall pay dearly for such bold statements, lol!

 

[NY_Jailhouse]

To be honest the game isn't sandboxy enough for the meta to change as drastically as it did with marvel 3. That game is crazy
Injustice is just kinda straightforward

 

[xWildx]

The real problem is how fucking bland the game is.

 

[shaowebb]

dude, you are a moderator and you don't even try to check your stuff before typing. f2d13 is possible only on hit, on block it will stop after f2d1 which is minus on block.

I used this for that so I did check stuff before typing dude, and yes I know to duck. If the 3 is only possible on hit then I do apologize for that and then the move list needs some updates.
http://testyourmight.com/wiki/index.php/Superman

Doesn't change my stance at all. He is way too good on his frame data. He advances forward enough to get in and start his pain and he is always really safe due to how well he is on block or hit. I pointed this out already in the last part of my post earlier but I guess we all knew that stuff already. I avoided talk on his resets though because he's ridiculously high damage without them if that helps here. Any way you slice it though there wouldn't be this many folks against the character in majors and across multiple boards unless Superman was a bit ridiculous so for the 1 thing I got wrong using our Guide I apologize, but I'm right on the rest.

His strings and moves have incredible frame data, he has enough low startup moves and advantage that to have 50% damage with such easy execution that he's silly.

In roughly 1hr, you shall pay dearly for such bold statements, lol!

They're not bold and I dont even use Bread N Butters yet for the person I play you with. I'm free, but hey I dont mind losing so long as I learn my character. You were the one who helped point out some of his stuff to me lol.

 

[TH3DISTURBED1]

I dont see a reason why Superman should be so plus on block. I'm sorry, but with damage like that and tools for everything ...just no.

Cmon +20 on block heat zap that leads to dashup +5 on block F2D13 , +2 on block 11, +1 on block 111 all from full screen. Plus, his other strings average only -2 if they are negative on block at all which means if you answer with anything of more than 8 frames he still gets off his 6 frame low which turns stuff into a trade or punish scenario for him a lot of times. Thats just a bit much when you average around 50% with a trait that lets you destroy armored moves which messes with wakeup. Dont Forget he can mix up his pressure strins with low zap as well to screw with the just block it crowd and he advances too far forward for the just back dash it crowd. Also he can box dash for crossups just for kicks.

He is allowed to be good, but this much advantage on everything with options to screw your block up during his strings AND 50% damage mid screen alongside of an armor ignoring trait and 2 frame super that stuffs everything is too good. No amount of frame argument and match footage can prove otherwise.

Looking specifically at the second paragraph talking about the blocked heat zap, what do you mean by "all from full screen"? Not to mention, his low zap (if referring to B1) is 17 frames and negative on block or if referring to F2D1, is still negative on block. F2D1 leads to 20% meterless midscreen, and with trait and meter (trait can only be activated after the Freeze B3), it's around 30%. It's like BA but opposite: why are you blocking SM high for any reason? His overheads are fuzzy guardable (223) or really slow (F3). If you are picked OTG by his divebomb, learn to block it. It's the same everytime.

 

[Peckapowa]

this game is systemically awkward, the lack of walk speed and few characters having footsie tools and the awkward anti-air game make it near impossible to play footsies especially against chars like GL and superman... those are the major issues

nonetheless moves need risk/rewards, superman has 1 good string but it happens to have retarded reach be 8 frame and hit mid and launch.... it needs a trait off and his other strings need more rewards to make him less braindead... this game doesn't at this point reward intelligent play, excellent spacing, zoning fundamentals, and sometimes good reads

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

The problems have absolutely nothing to do with character balance. The issues lie in the game design.

 

[Peckapowa]

I dont see a reason why Superman should be so plus on block. I'm sorry, but with damage like that and tools for everything ...just no.

Cmon +20 on block heat zap that leads to dashup +5 on block F2D13 , +2 on block 11, +1 on block 111 all from full screen. Plus, his other strings average only -2 if they are negative on block at all which means if you answer with anything of more than 8 frames he still gets off his 6 frame low which turns stuff into a trade or punish scenario for him a lot of times. Thats just a bit much when you average around 50% with a trait that lets you destroy armored moves which messes with wakeup. Dont Forget he can mix up his pressure strins with low zap as well to screw with the just block it crowd and he advances too far forward for the just back dash it crowd. Also he can box dash for crossups just for kicks.

He is allowed to be good, but this much advantage on everything with options to screw your block up during his strings AND 50% damage mid screen alongside of an armor ignoring trait and 2 frame super that stuffs everything is too good. No amount of frame argument and match footage can prove otherwise.

f213 cannot be done on block... back 1 isnt 6 frames.. ill agree heat zap has retarded recovery

 

[shaowebb]

f213 cannot be done on block... back 1 isnt 6 frames.. ill agree heat zap has retarded recovery

Down 1 sorry. But look folks all I did was post the frame data from the guide. I didn't bring up how to play vs his stuff, when to jump when to dodge whatever. To be honest I'm really just tired of all this. If you cant dash up from zap and go into his plus on block strings forgive me for assuming plus 20 on block in the one scenario I posted (which was just how good he was even on block) isn't enough to do them. Point I tried to make by just listing worst case scenario on block frame data is that even his worst tools aren't even that bad with only 1 to 2 negative frames. He has insane damage and can ignore armor and is either always positive on block or very very tight to punish on block.

What I'm getting at is you generally have to play a match where you are at a permanent footsie disadvantage. He can swipe the ground low with lasers which makes it rough for stuff like dashups, he progresses forward with F23 and you either run into it or have trouble getting out of its way, he can AA grab, he has a TON of wakeup options, and in general he just always stands a good chance off one hit destroying you. In character or not this isn't exactly very balanced. Sorry if quoting worst case block scenario frame data had folks thinking that was all his gameplan is. If you've seen me post about this in other threads before you already know that not to be the case, though.

TLDR
Superman needs some tweaks to be fair. Downplaying dont change that fact.

 

[TH3DISTURBED1]

Down 1 sorry. But look folks all I did was post the frame data from the guide. I didn't bring up how to play vs his stuff, when to jump when to dodge whatever. To be honest I'm really just tired of all this. If you cant dash up from zap and go into his plus on block strings forgive me for assuming plus 20 on block in the one scenario I posted (which was just how good he was even on block) isn't enough to do them. Point I tried to make by just listing worst case scenario on block frame data is that even his worst tools aren't even that bad with only 1 to 2 negative frames. He has insane damage and can ignore armor and is either always positive on block or very very tight to punish on block.

What I'm getting at is you generally have to play a match where you are at a permanent footsie disadvantage. He can swipe the ground low with lasers which makes it rough for stuff like dashups, he progresses forward with F23 and you either run into it or have trouble getting out of its way, he can AA grab, he has a TON of wakeup options, and in general he just always stands a good chance off one hit destroying you. In character or not this isn't exactly very balanced. Sorry if quoting worst case block scenario frame data had folks thinking that was all his gameplan is. If you've seen me post about this in other threads before you already know that not to be the case, though.

TLDR
Superman needs some tweaks to be fair. Downplaying dont change that fact.

The laser has ridiculous long start up. It can be seen online which laser it is (straight or sweep) AND reacted to. If you block the straight laser, that's your fault. It has a slow start up and does not trade if Superman is hit before the beam hits you.

As far as the frame data goes, that is how ALL of the top tier characters are. Using Black Adam as an example,

the strings people use in tournaments are plus on block or safe. He has many strings with advantage on block. B23 is +3, 113 is +3, 13 is +5, cancelling into orbs gives advantage with a free ~5% on block. This is in addition to him having better mobility and zoning than Superman. The only normals or strings he has that are punishable (-6 or more) are D2 and D3.

What makes Black Adam so much worse than Superman?