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VxG: The Chronicles

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CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Icebaby:

I don't want to blow it up totally until we get more info, to be fair. But in general, people should never ask players to consult on brackets/seeding for a tournament those players (or their teams) are actually playing in.
 
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funkdoc

Apprentice
MortySeinfeld said:
Am I the only person that thinks seeding in general is kind of bullshit?
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nop

i've felt for a while that the ONLY skill-based seeding that should be used at all is something 100% objective and based on numbers, like evo points. if people on this site really care that much about not having chris g vs KDZ in round 2, make your own numerical tournament ranking system for NRS games! without this i would only use regional seeding, as any other attempt at skill seeding is subject to bias and potential rigging.
 
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funkdoc

Apprentice
here's a great example on why evo scrapped skill seeding before coming up with the evo series idea:

at evo 2003, i happened to witness the TOs attempting to determine the top seed for one one of the guilty gear pools. both floe & elvenshadow were in this pool; both always played in chicago's weekly tournaments for GG, and elvenshadow won practically every one of those. but the evo TOs hadn't really heard of elvenshadow, but knew floe since he was one of their main IRC buddies and a known strong player in multiple games...so they just assumed floe would be the top seed. that got some midwest GG players to come up to them and bring up tournament records, which eventually convinced them to make elvenshadow the top seed.

in that one case you have both TO bias and bias from friends of a player - i don't believe they were trying to rig brackets, but how could outsiders know that or trust anyone involved? if this had blown up you could've even had floe take flack for it, when he did nothing wrong at all and was just caught in the middle of all this!

there's just too much downside with this type of system to be worth it imo
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
funkdoc said:
here's a great example on why evo scrapped skill seeding before coming up with the evo series idea:

at evo 2003, i happened to witness the TOs attempting to determine the top seed for one one of the guilty gear pools. both floe & elvenshadow were in this pool; both always played in chicago's weekly tournaments for GG, and elvenshadow won practically every one of those. but the evo TOs hadn't really heard of elvenshadow, but knew floe since he was one of their main IRC buddies and a known strong player in multiple games...so they just assumed floe would be the top seed. that got some midwest GG players to come up to them and bring up tournament records, which eventually convinced them to make elvenshadow the top seed.

in that one case you have both TO bias and bias from friends of a player - i don't believe they were trying to rig brackets, but how could outsiders know that or trust anyone involved? if this had blown up you could've even had floe take flack for it, when he did nothing wrong at all and was just caught in the middle of all this!
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Yeah.. If you don't just base it on the facts, there's room for whoever is involved to influence it one way or the other, and like you said sometimes it's accidental or due to unfamiliarity.

There are so many issues that can come up -- you see it a lot with players who were dominant at one time, but haven't been performing as well; they go to a tourney and get seeded over guys that have a better recent tourney record but not as big of a 'name'.
 
CurlyW

CurlyW

Noob
When I seed by skill, I try to make tiers of players instead of actually going and ranking everyone 1 through whatever. For a tournament with 16 pools, say, I try to pick the top 16 players and randomly as possible put 1 in each pool, then take the next 16 best and randomly put 1 in each pool, then randomize everyone else into all the pools. Using tiers to "seed" people allows for more flexibility in determining who the top placers will eventually be and mitigates the effects of potential bias. For deciding who those top 32 players are, I do my best to go by past results. (And yes, I seed by geography as well.) However, when I was doing the pool assignments for this tournament back in May (that shall remain nameless), Injustice gave me a problem since the game was barely a month old and there were very few results to base seeding on. But now, when Evo just happened, seeding should've been simple to do and do fairly.
 
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funkdoc

Apprentice
coolwhip said:
Shouldn't we wait till we actually get some information beyond "he said/she said" before blowing up someone about "rigging" brackets?
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agreed for sure, which is actually why i've been making these posts! i'm just trying to make the point that if we don't want actual rigging OR baseless accusations, we need to change the entire system.
 
Pig Of The Hut

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
AK Smarrgasm said:
I hope this isnt true but if it is its kinda effed up.

Either way unless the paths looked as bad as Crimson said then them being seeded 1-6 doesnt really matter who is where. As long as all 6 got seeded the number next to the name really doesnt matter. In a bracket this small it did seem to make a difference though seeing as they would run into each other a little earlier.

Anyway, so did bit not make top 8? Did Dizzy even play?
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dizzy quit injustice

so did reo
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Icebaby said:
Excuse me for possibly believing it could be true.

I mean it's not like there was VIDEO EVIDENCE on GGA 16bit getting caught saying he was going to rig NEC to favor his ways. And then it happened at the event where everything he said in the video became apparent.

If there's one thing that makes me lose respect on a player, it's one who would want to rig and ease his way to victory.

I'm sorry if I came off rude, but it really displeases me when high members of the community do such things...
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I hear you -- but it's way too early to accuse anyone of rigging. The only thing we can talk about now, is the fact that seeding for major events needs to be done in a way that doesn't allow for that kind of influence in the first place. Otherwise you leave the door open for mistakes, misunderstandings, and problems to occur.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Cat said:
you made the accusation when you posted it here, before getting all the facts first
LBSH you wanted a blow up
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I wanted to raise the issue, because I think it needs to be discussed -- and I actually confirmed everything I posted before posting it, and even got hard examples to show.

I think everyone involved should be able to say their piece; so I think it's pointless to jump to further conclusions at this point. That's why I asked that everyone stay patient and wait to hear more. But tournament brackets in general are something we all need to have a serious talk about, as there were major bracket issues in both MK9 and IGAU -- and that's not fair to the players.

In any case, I don't want people to take it the wrong way -- so I'm going to clean up the thread a bit, just so it doesn't get out of control before everyone has a chance to talk.
 
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