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The Superman Nerf Chronicles

PND i2 Gaug3

PND i2 Gaug3

NERF Everything, LEAVE Nothing
Ok now I usually try to stay away from the clusterfuck that is nerf threads, but the nerf superman banwagon has been going on for a while and you guys haven't invested the brainpower to look at your options.

But before I get to that.

Here are some nerfs people have suggested

No longer allow Superman to cancel into his trait

So you would like superman to either

1. Have his trait active permanently?

2. Activate his trait when he thinks the opponent is going to whiff something......then proceed to punish said whiff?

3. Just remove his trait and get a dmg buff?


normalizes his zoning game as well

Patient players have no problem with his zoning

one laser that is mid 26 frame start up
one laser that is high 38 frame start up

Are you telling me that people still cant duck then stand up when the mid laser is blocked to avoid a being hit with the MB version?

His "zoning" (if you want to call it that) doesn't have any frame traps.

Now as I stated earlier Heat zap is high and starts up at 38 frames recovers pretty quick mainly because it has such a huge start up, the traited dmg that you take from his zoning full screen away is one of 2 things

1. The player isn't blocking

2. The player is stand blocking

Both of these are because The player is stupid, There is no reason to stand block against superman.

Now before people try to hang me for the chip dmg when traited from lasers, if you just block like how you would normally do you take 6% chip off a traited laser (that you can jump)

Let me clarify again you can jump the swooping laser and duck the straight laser.


Make f2 10 frame start up.

I like this idea it will actually make the scrubs feel better about the superman matchup


Make F2 high

People who know how to play against him are ducking all the time but you want to cripple him?


Now lets get to the good shit

I'm only tagging you guys so you can clarify what i'm about to say

AK Smarrgasm
A F0xy Grampa
UsedForGlue
Tom Brady
@pig of the hut
KDZ

F23 arguably his best string

after F23 breath on block the superman player has 3 options

v1.05
1. Dash forward to punish a back-dash

2. Delay slightly to catch people pushing buttons

3. React if you waited to long

All versions before 1.05

1. Instant crossover air dash

Opponents options after F23 breath on block

1. Back-dash if you think he is going to loop the string

2. Press buttons if you think he thinks your going to back-dash

3. Mb B/F3 If you think he is going to loop (obviously not when he is traited your retard)

4. If you really aren't confident in your abilities to not be stupid you can use a bar of meter to push block as well

That is it nothing more to it than that.

What everyone should care about is when superman gets you to the corner and then fucks you for being stupid.

I remember when I started playing superman and I was winning a lot of my matches against Foxy he was complaining about f23 because its too good of a normal, He doesnt complain about it anymore because he adapted.
 
godlessmode

godlessmode

Apprentice
I'd add this to v1.05
4. Do another f23 immediately building some meter, doing some chip, and forcing the other player to do something other than block.

It's the pressure portion that allows the other options to work.

Edit: Also, I would like your post more than once if I could. But my lockedthread sense is tingling.
 
S

shoshinsha

Apprentice
Forget all this buff/nerf talk. I don't care what you pin it on: f23, zoning, mobility, pressure, corner damage, trait combos, etc. It's all part of a package. The simple fact is that Superman is an enormous outlier in this game. He has...

- the mobility, pressure, and mixups of a strong rushdown character
- the damage and resets of a strong bruiser
- the zoning of at LEAST a decent zoner, if not a good one
- one of the best traits in the game
- the best super in the game
- great meter-building ability
- minimal risk in all of his options
- extremely low execution demands

He is great at most things, good at everything else, bad at nothing, and easy to play. How is this ok?

Can you imagine the Flash with Superman's f23? Can you imagine Bane with Superman's mobility? Can you imagine Sinestro with Superman's up-close options? Can you imagine Doomsday with Superman's zoning? Can you imagine Shazam with Superman's trait? Can you imagine Deathstroke with Superman's super?

Sounds ridiculous, right? So why does Superman get all those tools at once? This has nothing to do with nerfing versus adapting. It's simply a question of whether or not you support efforts to make all characters as equally competitive as possible. If you do, there's no way to rationalize Superman's current toolbox.
 
PND i2 Gaug3

PND i2 Gaug3

NERF Everything, LEAVE Nothing
shoshinsha said:
- the mobility, pressure, and mixups of a strong rushdown character
- the damage and resets of a strong bruiser
- the zoning of at LEAST a decent zoner, if not a good one
- one of the best traits in the game
- the best super in the game
- great meter-building ability
- minimal risk in all of his options
- extremely low execution demands
Click to expand...
He only has mix-ups in the corner
His "resets" can be blocked if you know the setup
All of his "options" have risk if you are prepared for them and make the read

Now His trait......I'm sure I don't have to explain what exactly it does

But lets look at other characters traits and you can compare just how good supes trait is

Batman
Bats when 2 bats are active everything batman does is safe
Full screen whiff punish
Bats, Bats, Bats

Flash
Insane 1 meter dmg off a Hit-confirm-able trait (dare I say just like superman's trait), except he can do it anywhere not just in the corner

Nightwing
Staff Stance Stupidity

Raven
Full screen Lock-down, a wake-up option

Waterman
^self explanatory

WW
A F0xy Grampa

African American Adam
Free dmg for trying to hit him

Sinestro
all match-ups turn into his favor until his trait is finished

I only went over some traits
 
SolomonGrundman

SolomonGrundman

Grundy don't stop
shoshinsha said:
Forget all this buff/nerf talk. I don't care what you pin it on: f23, zoning, mobility, pressure, corner damage, trait combos, etc. It's all part of a package. The simple fact is that Superman is an enormous outlier in this game. He has...

- the mobility, pressure, and mixups of a strong rushdown character
- the damage and resets of a strong bruiser
- the zoning of at LEAST a decent zoner, if not a good one
- one of the best traits in the game
- the best super in the game
- great meter-building ability
- minimal risk in all of his options
- extremely low execution demands

He is great at most things, good at everything else, bad at nothing, and easy to play. How is this ok?

Can you imagine the Flash with Superman's f23? Can you imagine Bane with Superman's mobility? Can you imagine Sinestro with Superman's up-close options? Can you imagine Doomsday with Superman's zoning? Can you imagine Shazam with Superman's trait? Can you imagine Deathstroke with Superman's super?

Sounds ridiculous, right? So why does Superman get all those tools at once? This has nothing to do with nerfing versus adapting. It's simply a question of whether or not you support efforts to make all characters as equally competitive as possible. If you do, there's no way to rationalize Superman's current toolbox.
Click to expand...
Don't try to speak sense, it's not common around these forums.
 
S

shoshinsha

Apprentice
PND i2 Gaug3 said:
He only has mix-ups in the corner
His "resets" can be blocked if you know the setup
All of his "options" have risk if you are prepared for them and make the read

Now His trait......I'm sure I don't have to explain what exactly it does

But lets look at other characters traits and you can compare just how good supes trait is

Batman
Bats when 2 bats are active everything batman does is safe
Full screen whiff punish
Bats, Bats, Bats

Flash
Insane 1 meter dmg off a Hit-confirm-able trait (dare I say just like superman's trait), except he can do it anywhere not just in the corner

Nightwing
Staff Stance Stupidity

Raven
Full screen Lock-down, a wake-up option

Waterman
^self explanatory

WW
A F0xy Grampa

African American Adam
Free dmg for trying to hit him

Sinestro
all match-ups turn into his favor until his trait is finished

I only went over some traits
Click to expand...
My central point was that Superman's entire package of tools is the problem, not any one individual thing. He's good to great at everything, bad at nothing, and easy to play. Your counter-argument was to pick apart individual things and show how other characters can theoretically match him in one category or another. Yet none of the characters you listed can match his overall package.

I said, "nobody matches Superman's overall toolbox."
You said, "certain characters can match him on one particular tool."
That is not the issue. Show me someone who matches his entire toolbox.
 
SolomonGrundman

SolomonGrundman

Grundy don't stop
shoshinsha said:
My central point was that Superman's entire package of tools is the problem, not any one individual thing. He's good to great at everything, bad at nothing, and easy to play. Your counter-argument was to pick apart individual things and show how other characters can theoretically match him in one category or another. Yet none of the characters you listed can match his overall package.

I said, "nobody matches Superman's overall toolbox."
You said, "certain characters can match him on one particular tool."
That is not the issue. Show me someone who matches his entire toolbox.
Click to expand...
Responses you will eventually recieve
-Level up
-Cry more
-Pick another character
 
Knoterror

Knoterror

Kombatant
Supermans tools are fine. They seem broken when you apply them to a different character because they have their own tools that work together.

Superman has probably the shortest move list in the game, no low/overhead game, no real frame traps and can't cross up with his jump attacks like most of the cast. He needs a lot of what he has. Could he stand a little normalization? Sure. Is he broken? Not in my opinion.
 
S

shoshinsha

Apprentice
knoterror said:
Supermans tools are fine. They seem broken when you apply them to a different character because they have their own tools that work together.

Superman has probably the shortest move list in the game, no low/overhead game, no real frame traps and can't cross up with his jump attacks like most of the cast. He needs a lot of what he has. Could he stand a little normalization? Sure. Is he broken? Not in my opinion.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but I simply disagree. You can take the worst characters in the game, give them one of Superman's tools, and see how obviously they would shoot up the tier list. Who are the worst characters? Lex Luthor? Lobo? Bane? Joker? Most people will agree with you that they have a lot of poor tools in their toolbox, and few if any good ones. Now give any of those guys f23, or Superman's trait, or his mobility, or his eye lasers. Not all of those things. Just one. Suddenly a terrible character starts sounding MUCH more powerful. Superman's toolbox has all good-to-great tools.
 
SaJa

SaJa

FH_FenriR
shoshinsha said:
Forget all this buff/nerf talk. I don't care what you pin it on: f23, zoning, mobility, pressure, corner damage, trait combos, etc. It's all part of a package. The simple fact is that Superman is an enormous outlier in this game. He has...

- the mobility, pressure, and mixups of a strong rushdown character
- the damage and resets of a strong bruiser
- the zoning of at LEAST a decent zoner, if not a good one
- one of the best traits in the game
- the best super in the game
- great meter-building ability
- minimal risk in all of his options
- extremely low execution demands

He is great at most things, good at everything else, bad at nothing, and easy to play. How is this ok?

Can you imagine the Flash with Superman's f23? Can you imagine Bane with Superman's mobility? Can you imagine Sinestro with Superman's up-close options? Can you imagine Doomsday with Superman's zoning? Can you imagine Shazam with Superman's trait? Can you imagine Deathstroke with Superman's super?

Sounds ridiculous, right? So why does Superman get all those tools at once? This has nothing to do with nerfing versus adapting. It's simply a question of whether or not you support efforts to make all characters as equally competitive as possible. If you do, there's no way to rationalize Superman's current toolbox.
Click to expand...

♥ Nothing more to add. Except this :

Can you imagine Shazam with Superman's trait?
Click to expand...
I'm even dreaming about it dude !
 
J

jrollins2814

Noob
The only that Superman needs nerfing is... Everything. Seriously neuter that ****. So tired of Space Jesus popping up in my Green Lantern comicbooks and saving the collective multiverse... Again. Seriously, literally every other superhero is just there to stall till Supes decides to turn his attention to the threat at hand. Except for Batman who sometimes decides to save the multiverse through the power of deus ex and bad writing. A descendant of Krypton who has the same power set as Supes receives a green ring and has a metricton of willpower and is chosen to inherit the literal embodiment of the god of willpower itself? Trolololo nope nope you're still not as powerful as Supes!!
 
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