Can someone explain the NRS balance philosophy

[CrimsonShadow]

If you had as many Banes as you did Supermen, I can promise you he would've been in the top 8. How many doomsday players are there in contrast to Banes? It has a lot to do with statistics because you have a character with 10x the representation, odds are one of them will make it farther than the Bane because theres 10 different possible routes, some easier and harder, and 10 different opponents some of which may or may not know the MUs. If you swapped it and put 10 Banes and 1 Doomsday in a tourney, I'd wager money that at least one Bane would get further in the tourney.

You missed what I said. 2 players, 1 Bane, 1 Doomsday. Both high level players. Train with the same people. Completely different results. Both of them have tested their characters in tournament and training against some of the best in the game, and both of them agree that there's a massive difference in the available toolset.

Probability has nothing to do with it.. It's a 1-1 situation.

Like I said, if someone proves otherwise, that's great. But until someone does, theory fighting means a lot less than the experiences of people who have actually gone through what the OP is describing.

 

[The Borax Kid]

The game is not balanced enough where any character can make the top 8, not with the current metagame at least.

 

[Critical-Limit]

If you had as many Banes as you did Supermen, I can promise you he would've been in the top 8. How many doomsday players are there in contrast to Banes? It has a lot to do with statistics because you have a character with 10x the representation, odds are one of them will make it farther than the Bane because theres 10 different possible routes, some easier and harder, and 10 different opponents some of which may or may not know the MUs. If you swapped it and put 10 Banes and 1 Doomsday in a tourney, I'd wager money that at least one Bane would get further in the tourney.

The key to your point is "I know 2 Banes", how many Doomsday players do you know? I fought a good Doomsday at EVO, redgie I think his name was, and I feel in all honesty that I could've beaten him. I lost to a Nightwing in the end, that was just my bad luck.

ya early high tiers always get the advantage of being developed the quickest because of how many people are working. while lower-mid tiers take many times longer to develop simply because of use-age.

Since bane started at the bottom, he's got a low showing.


To show a good example of this I know it's a different game but in SSBM, Pikachu was low tier. there was like 3 people working on tech for 10 years.... within the last 4 years or so, a pikachu player named Axe has made top 4 in a few national tournaments. Adn the game has had zero patches since it's release.

a character climbed this tier list this late into the game simply because it didn't get the attention that the higher mid-top tiers had.

 

[Doombawkz]

You missed what I said. 2 players, 1 Bane, 1 Doomsday. Both high level players. Completely different results. Both of them have tested their characters in tournament and training against some of the best in the game, and both of them agree that there's a massive difference in the available toolset.

Probability has nothing to do with it.. It's a 1-1 situation.

Like I said, if someone proves otherwise, that's great. But until someone does, theory fighting means a lot less than the experiences of people who have actually gone through what the OP is describing.

Thought you meant you knew 2 banes, my apologies for misunderstanding.

Doomsday isn't as good as Bane imo, but he has better results. That's all. People pretty universally admit Doomsday is a "works until they know about it" from what I've heard. Bane is a "works until you do something else that works."

Add also, you said they've been going from the beginning of the Game? Most people have, no one except a select few picked Bane in the beginning and yeah, he was the literal worse. By now, Bane has more than a select bit of tools but who is going to drop their 2 month anybody for a week 1 Bane?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Thought you meant you knew 2 banes, my apologies for misunderstanding.

I do know 2 banes -- but one of them is in a very easy 1-1 comparision situation with a Doomsday. Both of the Banes have had similar results, though.

And as far as anything "working" with Bane -- what's an example where someone good knew the matchup and that was the case? If anything it's been the other way around; Bane players grab an early lead by surprise, and then the adjustment finds them getting flattened and eliminated.

 

[Hellbringer]

Doomsday has done a lot more damage than Bane.. I mean it's not quite tough talk to compare the character that won Toryuken to a character who's barely been able to get out of pools.

Not saying that Doomsday is #1, because he has issues, but there's plenty of tourney play to back up anything anyone says about Doomsday.

Bane on the other hand, is an entirely different story.

And as far as Gen, that's due to execution issues -- not the character tools. If Bane was as hard to execute with as Gen (or as Skarlet was in MK9) you'd have a case. But that's a different issue entirely and doesn't have anything to do with what Bane players are saying about their main.

Just because bane hasnt made top 8, doesnt mean hes not viable. Its only 3 months and how long ago was the last patch?
By that logic green arrow is s tier

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Just because bane hasnt made top 8, doesnt mean hes not viable. Its only 3 months and how long ago was the last patch?
By that logic green arrow is s tier

It's not about making top 8, and I never said that it was. I'm speaking strictly about character tools and how they translate in matchup in general. Chris G could pick him up and make Top 8 with some otherworldly level of play, and that still wouldn't change the situation the character is in.

 

[Doombawkz]

I do know 2 banes -- but one of them is in a very easy 1-1 comparision situation with a Doomsday. Both of the Banes have had similar results, though.

And as far as anything "working" with Bane -- what's an example where someone good knew the matchup and that was the case? If anything it's been the other way around; Bane players grab an early lead by surprise, and then the adjustment finds them getting flattened and eliminated.

Nah, the opponent can never find out all of the tools because theres always more. My first opponent knew Bane, but he didn't know enough. I caught him in more b.23 fast stands, 113 charge dash overs, d.2 d.2 links, d.2BPs, n.t.c.g.'s, OHVCS, b.23 dash under splashes, MBDP f.3s, and the like than he was even close to being able to react to.

What does doomsday have to figure out? d.1 earthshaker, and armor venom/grab? Maybe some "corner input reversal" etc? We have that too, we have j.3 command grab which rolled some heads, b.23 roll traps that I even caught redgie in. Hell, even Scar and GRR took rounds off of people, with GRR snagging one off of the EVO champ. GRR isn't even a great Bane by Bane standards. A good one, but we have better.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Nah, the opponent can never find out all of the tools because theres always more.

Unless more tools are being added to the game, there aren't "always more". Each character has what they're given to work with.

 

[Hellbringer]

It's not about making top 8, and I never said that it was. I'm speaking strictly about character tools and how they translate in matchup in general. Chris G could pick him up and make Top 8 with some otherworldly level of play, and that still wouldn't change the situation the character is in.

Thats just theory fighting. Ive seen some good banes and trust me, they have the tools available.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Thats just theory fighting. Ive seen some good banes and trust me, they have the tools available.

I know 2 of them, and both of them have actually tested this out vs. some of the best the game has to offer and agree with me. So who is "theory fighting?"

 

[Hellbringer]

Unless more tools are being added to the game, there aren't "always more". Each character has what they're given to work with.

Yeah but not everything is found or correctly used when the game is still new

 

[Doombawkz]

Unless more tools are being added to the game, there aren't "always more". Each character has what they're given to work with.

http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/dirty-venom-the-bane-tech-discussion.31748/

We got about 4 pages of "always more", and that's not even all of them because we also have blockstrings and frame traps and other techs we are putting into the super guide.

As I said before, GRR has taken a round off of the Evo champ's superman with Bane and he isn't even a good Bane. Its also supposedly a 3-7 MU in superman's favor. That's not including all of his better tech and traps which really put the heat on...

Soooooo your 2 Banes are nice, but results show that an ok-not-great Bane stole a round off of KDZ, which is more than some of the top 8 at Evo can say.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/dirty-venom-the-bane-tech-discussion.31748/

We got about 4 pages of "always more", and that's not even all of them because we also have blockstrings and frame traps and other techs we are putting into the super guide.

And at the same time, other characters are finding more things to make the matchups harder for Bane. You pointed out Grr, which was a great example -- it took KDZ 1 game to learn the matchup after never having played a Bane before. Then it was a wrap.

 

[Hellbringer]

I know 2 of them, and both of them have actually tested this out vs. some of the best the game has to offer and agree with me. So who is "theory fighting?"

I dont its just what i see online and on stream...

 

[Hellbringer]

And at the same time, other characters are finding more things to make the matchups harder for Bane. You pointed out Grr, which was a great example -- it took KDZ 1 round to learn the matchup. Then it was a wrap.

Are you really saying that after 3 monts your character is fully explored?

 

[Doombawkz]

And at the same time, other characters are finding more things to make the matchups harder for Bane. You pointed out Grr, which was a great example -- it took KDZ 1 game to learn the matchup after never having played a Bane before. Then it was a wrap.

Grr isn't a great Bane, pretty much every Bane in the forum watching was proud for one round where he didn't even leave grey, and then facepalming the rest of the time at his misuse of venom and attacks.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Are you really saying that after 3 monts your character is fully explored?

Are you really saying that after 3-months the anti-Bane tech from other characters is fully explored?

In MK9, people are still learning things about their characters. However, that doesn't make Baraka a would-be great character.

Grr isn't a great Bane, pretty much every Bane in the forum watching was proud for one round where he didn't even leave grey, and then facepalming the rest of the time at his misuse of venom and attacks.

I know two great banes, who agreed. So that point is moot. I'm not basing this off of random online Bane's who haven't actually tested out their claims.

If you believe differently, then you should prove it and I'll accept it. Until then, I'd take the word of the people that have been there.

 

[Doombawkz]

I know two great banes, who agreed. So that point is moot. I'm not basing this off of random online Bane's who haven't actually tested out their claims.

I know more than two who would disagree, so your point is moot too.
A character doesn't win a 3-7 against the EVO champ just because "he didn't know the MU", especially one who has less character mastery than the average Bane. If Bane is as bad as you say, then any superman without needing to know the MU can beat a Bane because his tools far outclass Banes. They wouldn't need to "take a round to figure out" the Bane player's non-use of tech or tactics.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I know more than two who would disagree, so your point is moot too.
A character doesn't win a 3-7 against the EVO champ just because "he didn't know the MU", especially one who has less character mastery than the average Bane. If Bane is as bad as you say, then any superman without needing to know the MU can beat a Bane because his tools far outclass Banes.

Any good tournament player (including KDZ) will tell you that's 100% untrue. I've seen what his first-time-outings look like against a number of characters, and it's taken him a match or so to learn the MU in most cases. Sometimes a whole set. Chris G likewise.

So again, I'm basing this off of what's happening in practice; prove otherwise and I'll accept it. Until then, what the OP is saying makes more sense than people sitting on a forum arguing with him.

 

[trufenix]

To speak directly to the OP (Though I do appreciate your efforts Doombawkz, not that I think you should have bothered with a thread like this) the only insight we've ever been given into Injustice design philosophy is that they wanted the characters to be "OD". IMO, that sentiment means instead of making a game where all the characters are safe and samey like SF or KoF, they wanted to make a game where characters represent extremes and don't really resemble each other in playstyle, similar to a GG or BlazBlue.

That said, this "discussion" as to why NRS would deliberately gimp some characters vs others is fucking pointless. No developer can tell before a game is released just what is or isn't broken. Even with a hundred betas and an army of testers. Its just impossible to simulate the kind of rigorous play a fighter gets out in the wild. For all we know, a month before release it was Supes and BA and Batman on the bottom of the pile and Bane and Sinestro and Hawkgirl on top.

 

[Doombawkz]

Any good tournament player (including KDZ) will tell you that's 100% untrue. I've seen what his first-time-outings look like against a number of characters, and it's taken him a match or so to learn the MU in pretty much all cases.

So you are saying he has never in his existence of the game played a Bane of any skill level? Or seen one A.K.A. Scar at evo who is a better Bane overall than GRR.? He's never looked into a character like Bane and said "I need to be prepared"? Why do his amazing footsies suddenly fail when, fundamentally and by your claim, he should've been able to best Bane without the match needed.

Just off of what he saw from Scar, that alone should've told him all he needed to know. Your claim that the EVO champion would lose a 3-7 MU against an average-at-best Bane because he needed a match to download him is more asinine than my assumption that Bane is somewhat viable as most people would agree.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

So you are saying he has never in his existence of the game played a Bane of any skill level? Or seen one A.K.A. Scar at evo who is a better Bane overall than GRR.? He's never looked into a character like Bane and said "I need to be prepared"? Why do his amazing footsies suddenly fail when, fundamentally and by your claim, he should've been able to best Bane without the match needed.

If you don't believe him, that's on you -- but he's never had a reason to lie.

If you can't see the drastic turnaround that happened after he figured out what to do, then it's probably a waste of time to even argue this point.

 

[godlessmode]

So you are saying he has never in his existence of the game played a Bane of any skill level? Or seen one A.K.A. Scar at evo who is a better Bane overall than GRR.? He's never looked into a character like Bane and said "I need to be prepared"? Why do his amazing footsies suddenly fail when, fundamentally and by your claim, he should've been able to best Bane without the match needed.

Why would he feel a need to be prepared for Bane when the consensus among the top level players is that Bane isn't or at least wasn't a threat?

 

[trufenix]

CrimsonShadow, so is Wonder Woman bad or good and why?