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F23 and the rest of the cast.

TH3DISTURBED1

TH3DISTURBED1

"Never say 'never'
Lt. Box said:
The Lasers, the Air Throw + Laser, MB Freeze combos, Trait damage, F2D1...he wouldn't be COMPLETELY screwed, lol.
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F2D1 leads to 20% combos without meter, air throw + laser screws up positioning (that's why you see most Supermans ending with 3 BF3).

Trait damage is useful, but it's only a few % midscreen. I want to say its only between 6 and 8%
 
Foreskin Fissure

Foreskin Fissure

Noob
I stopped reading the op after the joker comment and thats why I really just hate superman players.

People get so used to f23 that they forget they have safe mixups in 223 and f2d1, and correct me if im wrong but if i'm correct f2d13 gives a hard knockdown which sets up for oki. Let's also not forget his ridiculous mobility, safe zoning and the fact that his corner dammage would be completely unaffected by f23. Oh and his absolutely ridiculous trait and even though breath is negative 1 (ahahahah "nerfed") it still pushes you too far back to punish.

Superman becomes joker without f23 strong troll thread this is.
 
Red Venom

Red Venom

The Main Man of TYM
Foreskin Fissure said:
I stopped reading the op after the joker comment and thats why I really just hate superman players.

People get so used to f23 that they forget they have safe mixups in 223 and f2d1, and correct me if im wrong but if i'm correct f2d13 gives a hard knockdown which sets up for oki. Let's also not forget his ridiculous mobility, safe zoning and the fact that his corner dammage would be completely unaffected by f23. Oh and his absolutely ridiculous trait and even though breath is negative 1 (ahahahah "nerfed") it still pushes you too far back to punish.

Superman becomes joker without f23 strong troll thread this is.
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I'm sure you've heard this before but....

Dat username

Sounds so painful lmao
 
TJ Casters

TJ Casters

Apprentice
Foreskin Fissure said:
I stopped reading the op after the joker comment and thats why I really just hate superman players.

People get so used to f23 that they forget they have safe mixups in 223 and f2d1, and correct me if im wrong but if i'm correct f2d13 gives a hard knockdown which sets up for oki. Let's also not forget his ridiculous mobility, safe zoning and the fact that his corner dammage would be completely unaffected by f23. Oh and his absolutely ridiculous trait and even though breath is negative 1 (ahahahah "nerfed") it still pushes you too far back to punish.

Superman becomes joker without f23 strong troll thread this is.
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22 scoop is not a mix-up. Scoop is like, -1000000 on block. He doesn't have many other safe strings. The only others he has are 11 and 111 which are high and super-close range. I'm SO down for zoning nerfs, but I don't think F23 should be nerfed.
 
TJ Casters

TJ Casters

Apprentice
Foreskin Fissure said:
I never said 22scoop in my post but it is a mix up. Force them to respect 223 and you can go for a scoop, god forbid there should be risk in a fighting game.
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1. If you didn't mean 22 scoop then what were you going for?
2. Could you clarify this? Based on what I read, I will say this: scoop does not lead to many high damage combos.
 
Foreskin Fissure

Foreskin Fissure

Noob
TJ Casters said:
1. If you didn't mean 22 scoop then what were you going for?
2. Could you clarify this? Based on what I read, I will say this: scoop does not lead to many high damage combos.
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I apologize for the confusion i'll edit my last post I'm just frustrated from the superman down playing.

GL does 32% damage I'm correct at most with one meter and is still a top 5 character. Why does supes have to have high damage on ALL his strings. 223 still leads to 40+ percent so if you're opponent consistently blocks it you can definately throw in a scool for a safe whatever percent even if its only 20. Superman doesn't need f23 to be viable, he needs it to be played in a braindead, mindless manner. He has so many tools people don't need to use from how utterly stupid that string is.
 
Vulcan Hades

Vulcan Hades

Champion
I agree with:

-more pushblock on breath so the next immediate F2 will whiff (except in the corner)
-slower startup (not by much though)

Either of those should fix it I think.

But in addition I would also reduce the amount of meter gain from lasers. He shouldn't be able to build up his Super so quickly and easily. It's just too powerful.

Other than Supes:

-I would nerf Black Adam's backdash. But I would make it slower and/or travel less distance instead of adding substantial recovery to it.
-I would make Wonder Woman's corner OTG +0 or -1 instead of +6 on block.
-I would nerf all combos doing over 50%.
-I would make all traits and all supers godlike.
 
TJ Casters

TJ Casters

Apprentice
Foreskin Fissure said:
I apologize for the confusion i'll edit my last post I'm just frustrated from the superman down playing.

GL does 32% damage I'm correct at most with one meter and is still a top 5 character. Why does supes have to have high damage on ALL his strings. 223 still leads to 40+ percent so if you're opponent consistently blocks it you can definately throw in a scool for a safe whatever percent even if its only 20. Superman doesn't need f23 to be viable, he needs it to be played in a braindead, mindless manner. He has so many tools people don't need to use from how utterly stupid that string is.
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I had to point out the spelling errors, sorry. I truly believe if F23 is nerfed and people have to use the other strings, they'll be forced to use a lot more heat vision. Nerfing his strings would drive people to do a lot more of what more people hate more than F23.
 
Foreskin Fissure

Foreskin Fissure

Noob
TJ Casters said:
I had to point out the spelling errors, sorry. I truly believe if F23 is nerfed and people have to use the other strings, they'll be forced to use a lot more heat vision. Nerfing his strings would drive people to do a lot more of what more people hate more than F23.
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Heat vision is also ludicrous, it can be meter burned for an overhead AND +11 on block. If you nerf both you have a 100% fair charcter.

I'm only talking about him because this is a superman thread. Every one of these supossed S-tiers are almost as braindead and stupid as he is. That i happen to think he's the dumbest is another story.
 
TJ Casters

TJ Casters

Apprentice
Foreskin Fissure said:
Heat vision is also ludicrous, it can be meter burned for an overhead AND +11 on block. If you nerf both you have a 100% fair charcter.

I'm only talking about him because this is a superman thread. Every one of these supossed S-tiers are almost as braindead and stupid as he is. That i happen to think he's the dumbest is another story.
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Heat vision normal is not safe at all up close. But yeah, nerf the zoning and I'll be fine. Leave F23 alone.
 
Foreskin Fissure

Foreskin Fissure

Noob
TJ Casters said:
Heat vision normal is not safe at all up close. But yeah, nerf the zoning and I'll be fine. Leave F23 alone.
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Why would anyone use any of his zones up close? I'd have to disagree with not nerfing f23 if they nerf both then he'd finally have to zone intelligently and use all of his great footsies tools cause he has way more than just f23.
 
S

shoshinsha

Apprentice
TH3DISTURBED1 said:
I hope that's on the nerf bat instead of the F23 string.. In all reality, what else does he have?
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THIS is the problem. You shouldn't be able to say, "If you take away [1 thing], what else does [character] have?" That's the epitome of lazy design. I frankly think that f23 should be ALMOST destroyed. I love the idea of making it a high. I also love the idea of making breath -2 on block AND of adding falling frames to the end of air laser. BUT, in return, I think Superman should have several of his other strings buffed to usability status and have the hitbox on laser sweep improved. Make him an actually diverse character.
 
A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
TH3DISTURBED1 said:
Imo that's an unfair comparison only because WW actually has a low starter that isn't punishable on block, but is actually plus frames. WW's B1 is positive on block, B11 is positive on block, and B113 isn't even punishable by Superman's super. WW has advantage on block in exchange for normals that are only SLIGHTLY slower startup. 33 is advantage on block. That's just lasso stance. Superman has one useful string.

Superman only has 2 strings plus on block, those being 11 and 111. These have very little reach and a high starter. The only string with any reach is F23.

If Superman is nerfed, I feel it should be his zoning ability over F23. Every other rushdown character has several useful strings. Superman has 1.
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Its not an unfair comparison tbh, think about it.

It doesnt matter if Supermans F2 is 8f, or 12f, it will still have the reach, and will still be 0 on block if you confirm it into breath. No character can outreach him STILL, so it basically means that he has to respect a few more options from other characters. At the same time this will give him more whiff punish opporunities if the superman player makes the right read, it wont really be that big of a deal.

Also, it has nothing to do with having a low starter or not. WW is + on everything because her normals are nearly twice as slow as everybody else.

Overall though, IDC if he gets nerfed or not, I think he's alright as he is, but I also know that his metagame doesnt change much, even with around 4 extra frames start up on F23.
 
A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Foreskin Fissure said:
22scoop is a mix up. Force them to respect 223 and you can go for a scoop, god forbid there should be risk in a fighting game.
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22scoop is not a mixup though.

Against superman always block low first, then high, just like Kung Lao in MK.
You can react to the 3 in 223, you never have to react to the scoop in 22scoop.
 
John Grizzly

John Grizzly

The axe that clears the forest
Am I reading this right? Are you saying every character gets a D1 into special off a blocked F23~Breath? Because they certainly don't.
 
M

M-Aran-X

Mortal
A F0xy Grampa said:
22scoop is not a mixup though.

Against superman always block low first, then high, just like Kung Lao in MK.
You can react to the 3 in 223, you never have to react to the scoop in 22scoop.
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this, actually they should make the 223 come faster so it becomes a mixup. Then they can nerf f23 and heat v &z however they want. God forbid a character to have a mixup like batman, green lantern and so on.
 
M

M-Aran-X

Mortal
A F0xy Grampa said:
Its not an unfair comparison tbh, think about it.

It doesnt matter if Supermans F2 is 8f, or 12f, it will still have the reach, and will still be 0 on block if you confirm it into breath. No character can outreach him STILL, so it basically means that he has to respect a few more options from other characters. At the same time this will give him more whiff punish opporunities if the superman player makes the right read, it wont really be that big of a deal.

Also, it has nothing to do with having a low starter or not. WW is + on everything because her normals are nearly twice as slow as everybody else.

Overall though, IDC if he gets nerfed or not, I think he's alright as he is, but I also know that his metagame doesnt change much, even with around 4 extra frames start up on F23.
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the speed of f2 is not the problem. The problem is the loop, if you are gonna start nerfing the startup then let's nerf green lantern b1 because that thing is a low, 9 frames and has way more reach than f2 and is epic for whiff punish. The loop is what botters people not the reach.
 
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