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Why zoning is such a problem in injustice..

Jaku2011

Filled with determination
Why does everyone talk like fighting they are full time job. I'm pretty sure that he did not pay $60 to spend the majority of his time in training mode. He does not need training mode as much as he needs information. What's he going to learn in training mode when he doesn't know what to practice and the cpu spamming projectiles isn't like someone online spamming projectiles waiting to get a full combo on a dash/jump.
umm why aren't you helping him then. Give him the info then lol. I never said spend 1000 hours in training mode I said you have trouble with something test it in training mode and figure out what to do I hardly use training mode anymore I only ever use it when starting a new character or when I find somebody that does something that blows me up like green lantern doing b13 missile. I would have never have figured out to forward dash if I just kept playing the guy. And lol full time job this takes 10-30 minutes tops.
 

K3DC

Noob
umm why aren't you helping him then. Give him the info then lol. I never said spend 1000 hours in training mode I said you have trouble with something test it in training mode and figure out what to do I hardly use training mode anymore I only ever use it when starting a new character or when I find somebody that does something that blows me up like green lantern doing b13 missile. I would have never have figured out to forward dash if I just kept playing the guy. And lol full time job this takes 10-30 minutes tops.
Because I don't like this game nor am I good at it. I'm waiting for Red Hood (if we get him) to take this game seriously. No you never said anything, but go to training mode. Training mode isn't going to help because he's not getting punished for unsafe moves or anything that frame data can solve. There are 3 answers to projectiles: 1. Duck: blocks low, but keeps in the same place. 2. Block then dash, punishable by intractable and some specials, 3. forward jump, full combo punish. A SMART zoner is going to when every time because this isn't a fighting game as much as it a game of positioning. Sure that might but there seems to be this unrealistic expectation that everyone who buys a fighter has to take every single character to training mode, learn every match up, and master every combo. If not, you'll get blown up on the forums.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
The real problem is that there's no useful universal way to counter zoning; aside from jumping, walking and dash blocking. This wouldn't be as bad if the walk speed wasn't atrocious or if the dashes had less recovery. The other option is Meter Burn Dash Cancel, which is a terrible option unless you're close to the opponent and it's not against a multi-hitting projectile. If you're going to make projectiles not interact with each other, you HAVE to give us a universal counter to zoning, such as a parry or a meterless FADC, especially if every character is going to have a projectile. Because right now, it's very DERPY zoning and it looks terrible and incredibly boring. It's not fun to combat zoning in Injustice like it may be in other games. There's very little spacing or timing required, it's just throwing a bunch of crap on the screen until the opponent can wade through it all and get close to you.

None of this would be as big of an issue if only certain characters were good zoners, then were weak up close. Nope, a lot of good zoners also have strong close range game. So you finally make it in on them, and instead of being at a positional advantage, you're now even at best.

The best option NRS could do to "fix" this is a universal walk speed buff. This will not only help with zoning, but also in many other areas including improving the footsie game. colt
 

Gurpwnder

Saikyo Student
The real problem is that there's no useful universal way to counter zoning; aside from jumping, walking and dash blocking. This wouldn't be as bad if the walk speed wasn't atrocious or if the dashes had less recovery. The other option is Meter Burn Dash Cancel, which is a terrible option unless you're close to the opponent and it's not against a multi-hitting projectile. If you're going to make projectiles not interact with each other, you HAVE to give us a universal counter to zoning, such as a parry or a meterless FADC, especially if every character is going to have a projectile.

Yeah from the looks of it, it seems that SF4's focus attacks and KOF's rolls are some of the best designed universal tools I've seen. However, with different games giving different universal abilities, some will end up too powerful (With 3rd Strike parries, I only really see Ryu throw ex fireballs at midscreen and Gouki throw 3 hit Shankanetsu hadokens before throwing a Messatsu Gohadou for chip), and some end up too weak (As you described, Injustice's MB B3 costs meter and doesn't even help VS some projectiles). It's a very delicate balance, to be sure - you want fireballs to have a place, just not an overwhelming presence.
 

Zerosoulreaver

Apprentice
To be fair, I think the real problem is that their is no easy mode way to defend against zoning. You actually have to go about it the bare bones OG way and most people are not willing to put an ounce of effort into that.
This is the one thing I actually loved about Injustice, the transition back to fundamentals.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
The fact that you dont even want to use trainingmode to figure out how to get past zoning tells me that no matter what ppl give you as advice, your just too stubborn to take time to learn it.
 

Peckapowa

Champion
I personally find that I learn best through beatings, perhaps this may help you. After you get beaten down repeatedly by various zoning tactics, you'll eventually find your own way around it and you'll be a much better player for it. However, there are a few different tactics I can recommend (General fighting game strategies, not Injustice specific ones):

Bulldogging - The idea here is to just keep walking forward and block each incoming projectile. Eventually, you'll walk your opponent to the corner, and you'll be in their face. You will eat a lot of chip, but you won't get anti-aired back full screen again.

Jumping - Don't jump excessively, since many anti-airs will send you far away from your opponent again. However, if you make a read on your opponent, you can nail them with a hefty jump-in combo.

Laming them out - Get a small life lead, if possible, then stay fullscreen away. You can react to every projectile they throw, and they'll eventually have to take the fight to you if they want to win.

Armor / Invincibility - Figure out which moves you have that can go through their projectiles, and hit them with it when you predict a projectile. If you manage to hit them enough times, they will eventually throw projectiles more cautiously and you'll be able to close the distance much easier.

However, the most important thing is to be patient. A projectile tosser WANTS you to get impatient, so they can prey on your mistakes and win. Hope this helps.
don't block projectiles if you can avoid them though, block ds's low shots though
 

CHAINSAW305

Jus chill'n
Your first point went out the window when you mentioned "casual players". Just saying, ANY type of keepaway in any 2D game is generally a huge hurdle for anyone who only plays fighting games on an extremely casual level.

The second point doesn't make any sense, considering back to block exists in MANY 2D fighters, where keepaway actually isn't that strong.

Third argument holds actual weight...that is a legit thing boosting keepaway's viability. But considering that most projectiles in the game are either extremely disadvantageous on block, can be crouched, have slow startup, don't control much space, or are a combination of any of these (even all of the above), and on top of the fact that dashes in this game cover huge amounts of ground in such short bursts, results in a game where keepaway can only really thrive from mechanics such as pushblock, clash, and the like if said problems are not directly addressed.
What do u think if all power characters had the ability to air dash and all the rest could double jump or just every character have some sort of air mobility and if they sped up all the characters walk speed????
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
What do u think if all power characters had the ability to air dash and all the rest could double jump or just every character have some sort of air mobility and if they sped up all the characters walk speed????
Then you would have to nerf a bunch of characters lol. There's a reason Grundy, Bane, Flash, etc, aren't given as much mobility as some other characters.
 

CHAINSAW305

Jus chill'n
Then you would have to nerf a bunch of characters lol. There's a reason Grundy, Bane, Flash, etc, aren't given as much mobility as some other characters.
Well I know that. lol ! Maybe some type of mobility added on. I don't think any characters should be nerfed. I think with the right mobility buff characters like Flash, Nightwing, Harley, Shazam, Joker, Ares, Deathstroke, GL, Sinestro and Catwoman would make for more interesting match ups. We saw what a great GL can do against a great Supes. Nothing! That was all Supes bad ass mobility. His air dash and d3 was what sealed that deal. If GL had at least an air dash. It should be a wayyyyy better fight. IDK. Just a thought.
 

@MylesWright_

I'll be back 3ing
Then you would have to nerf a bunch of characters lol. There's a reason Grundy, Bane, Flash, etc, aren't given as much mobility as some other characters.
Three characters with amazing dashes is a terrible example of bad mobility
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Well I know that. lol ! Maybe some type of mobility added on. I don't think any characters should be nerfed. I think with the right mobility buff characters like Flash, Nightwing, Harley, Shazam, Joker, Ares, Deathstroke, GL, Sinestro and Catwoman would make for more interesting match ups. We saw what a great GL can do against a great Supes. Nothing! That was all Supes bad ass mobility. His air dash and d3 was what sealed that deal. If GL had at least an air dash. It should be a wayyyyy better fight. IDK. Just a thought.
For the love of god stop the buffs for flash already. Not that i disagree on walkspeedimprovement but flash buffs is a big NO. lol
 

Fred Marvel

It's actually Freddy Marvel
Well I know that. lol ! Maybe some type of mobility added on. I don't think any characters should be nerfed. I think with the right mobility buff characters like Flash, Nightwing, Harley, Shazam, Joker, Ares, Deathstroke, GL, Sinestro and Catwoman would make for more interesting match ups. We saw what a great GL can do against a great Supes. Nothing! That was all Supes bad ass mobility. His air dash and d3 was what sealed that deal. If GL had at least an air dash. It should be a wayyyyy better fight. IDK. Just a thought.
this man knows. if GL had an air dash he'd probably be top tier lol
 

CHAINSAW305

Jus chill'n
this man knows. if GL had an air dash he'd probably be top tier lol
I didn't say he wasn't a top tier character. It's about the bad match ups that someone like GL or anyone that I mentioned (with some sort of a mobility buff) would make for much closer matches. The best characters IMO are Supes, Bats, Batgirl, Killer Frost and Raven.
 

Fred Marvel

It's actually Freddy Marvel
I didn't say he wasn't a top tier character. It's about the bad match ups that someone like GL or anyone that I mentioned (with some sort of a mobility buff) would make for much closer matches. The best characters IMO are Supes, Bats, Batgirl, Killer Frost and Raven.
i know, im saying he isnt. tops is Supes, Bats, Adam, Aquaman, WW(nobody uses her though ), Batgirl, Flash, and maybe Frost.
 

CHAINSAW305

Jus chill'n
i know, im saying he isnt. tops is Supes, Bats, Adam, Aquaman, WW(nobody uses her though ), Batgirl, Flash, and maybe Frost.
Yea I was gonna say WW but I haven't seen anybody use her. She is top though. Aquaman is very close but he's a little slow and has less mobility. Only reason why Black Adam is up there is coz he's easy to use but I've seen great Supes, Batman, Batgirl players whoop the snot outta great Black Adam players. I think Raven and WW have that match up too. Maybe even Frost.
 

CHAINSAW305

Jus chill'n
How? If they had any extra mobility, they'd be stupid.
It depends on what type of extra mobility. I mean if Bane and Grundy had a air dash. Yes this would be stupid but just give them some more walk speed for pete sakes. Obviously it depends on the character and what type of mobility. Ares teleport is a great example. He does have a teleport and it's a great tool for rushing and finishing. Totally forgot about Ares. My bad ma dewd.
 

Vilén

too smart to play MKX
...Was this... was this a troll thread? Or something?

Because I felt like I was being trolled.

Some nobody: WAAAAH ZONING TOO STRONG
People who know shit: LOL NO, do this this that and this, training mode, lrn2play
Same nobody: NO I REFUSE TO DO ANYTHING TO GET BETTER AT THE GAME

Over four pages. I don't understand how this even stayed open. I've never seen a complainer so actively reject/dismiss advice. And on this forum that's saying something.
 

aj1701

Champion
So he has to play a fighting game all day/every day in order to have an opinion? And then you call him lazy because he likes to do something else besides sit on his ass and do nothing all day? What an amazing example of irony. Those of you that bash someone because they don't dedicate over 50% of their waking hours to a fucking video-game are pathetic.

My answer to the poster. The way I got around projectile spamming is Raven. Play with her for a while and she'll be your new best friend.
He's doing the equivalent of going on a site frequented by MLB players and then saying he wishes the ball was bigger so it was easier to hit and the bases closer so he has less running to do.

And ya he is being lazy playing the game; the only way to get better at something is to practice. If he doesn't want to do that fine, but then he'll probably never figure out how to beat someone that just zones him out all day. If that's how he wants to play he can play only with his friends that agree to his made up rules.
 
...Was this... was this a troll thread? Or something?

Because I felt like I was being trolled.

Some nobody: WAAAAH ZONING TOO STRONG
People who know shit: LOL NO, do this this that and this, training mode, lrn2play
Same nobody: NO I REFUSE TO DO ANYTHING TO GET BETTER AT THE GAME

Over four pages. I don't understand how this even stayed open. I've never seen a complainer so actively reject/dismiss advice. And on this forum that's saying something.
- you obviously didn't read all of the pages then I only rejected one thing which was training mode because I only use it to get down combos because it doesn't help me get past zoners and spammers . But if you would of have ACTUALLY read all the pages before posting this you would of have saw that I was getting help form at least three people and I even thanked them for it ... So please get out