What "normal" gaming enthusiasts think of injustice EVO finals

[AA25Mamba]

"I know this is probably a lost cause because most of you are all casuals. But I'm still gonna try and educate some people here.
What you guys call "spam" is in reality "zoning" which consists in controlling space and limiting options. You do it by occupying the ground or the air with something. e.g. Black Adam has good ground control and Deathstroke has good air control. It can be a projectile like in Superman's case, or it can be limbs (Dhalsim in SF) or it can be any move that presents an obstacle to the opponent.
Players mainly do this to build meter, protect a life lead, keep rushdown characters away etc. It is also part of "footsies" or the mid-range game. It's a conditioning tactic. For example in SF4 when Ryu keeps doing hadokens, you get tired of it and decide to try and jump over one but then he uppercuts you. The Ryu player is not the one lacking skill here, it's you. You were impatient and fell right in his trap. At closer range, you can't jump over fireballs on reaction, you either have to predict them or walk and block or focus dash cancel etc.
Casuals will never improve at fighting games until they realize that spamming is
not a stupid or noob thing, it's an obstacle/challenge that you have to get through like in any other game. For example, in Mario you have those cannon balls and fire balls moving around the screen. People don't complain that the AI is just spamming. They suck it up and accept that those obstacles are part of the level, it's what makes it challenging and rewarding. You just try to avoid the fireballs/cannon balls by playing smart and being patient.
In FPS you have snipers. Of course the same noobs that complain about spammers also complain about snipers. They say that they are just campers but real players like the challenge. You know you have to respect snipers, you know you have to take cover, you know you can't just run around in open field and be a sitting duck. You go around, you get inside houses, follow the walls, go underground etc. until you finally make your way behind the sniper, cut his throat and tea-bag him.
Well it's the same thing in fighting games! You have to work to get around zoning and start your pressure/combos. There is no reason to play fighting games if you just want to do your flashy combos without working a little to land it. If you don't want to deal with any projectile obstacle then you might as well stick to practice mode where there is no challenge to overcome.
Pro tip for Injustice: vs most characters, after avoiding or blocking a projectile you can do a full dash safely and block the next projectile in time. There are only a few exceptions to this rule (like Cyborg for example). Vs Cyborg's instant air fireball zoning, you have to walk, crouch, walk crouch more than dash or jump. Eventually you'll close the distance and it's up to you to keep them cornered or punish them if they try to jump over you.
There, I hope you all learned something today. If I just made 1 noob smarter then it was worth it.
So the next time you lose to a spammer, just accept that he was better
than you and try to do better next time. Otherwise you will always suck at everything in life."

lol Educate the noobs!!

You didn't. I wish you had, but all of that will fall on deaf ears as this thread becomes a, "MK was better," thread.

 

[Metzos]

I actually really like Injustice's zoning. From what I've seen lately as I've actually been paying a little more attention to other games, there are many FGs out there with unique zoning styles, and Injustice is just another one of those styles. I'm really liking Zod at the moment and the options that he brings. Where at first glance it seems at if he is "weak" in many areas, that is the best part as you have to be creative and "patch-up" the holes so to speak, and it is fun to figure stuff out.

True, Zod looks really interesting, but i was talking about IGAU's zoning in general. In MK9 you actually had to think and form a strategy before you started to zone. Spacing in MK9 was superior in all aspects (counter-poking, whiff punishing etc) and in general MK9 was a more riskier game, unfriendly to spammers, or whatever you wanna call them. This does not apply with IGAU IMO. Counter poking is none existent, whiff punishing rarely happens, if at all, and spacing is thrown out of the window with so many gap closing and safe abilities many characters have. Now, dont get me wrong there are characters in IGAU which require skill and thinking to play with, but the majority of the cast is brain dead. In general IGAU is a much much safer game than MK9.

 

[Linkuei82]

Would you guys think the zoning would be as bad if injustice zoning was like SF? Where projectiles could cancel each other out?

 

[Groove Heaven]

"I go by a + policy online where if I have so many wins over losses I'm okay for the day. Today I played nothing but superman spammers and scorpion bull...I couldn't achieve my +10 today due to outright frustration. I ended up about -1 today in about 15/16 matches. Do something NRS. Make this game fun for everyone to play like you promoted pre-release."

This is what I see the casual player-base in this comments section as. People who really just care about their online record. Some people play to have fun and get better with the competitive spirit, i.e. high level players. Some people play competitive games just to cow people and assert their dominance. The people who blow your inbox up with racial slurs do it because they're suffering some kind of horrible cognitive dissonance about losing, and they have to rationalize it by reducing their opponents' accomplishments to "spamming."

 

[Hellbringer]

True, Zod looks really interesting, but i was talking about IGAU's zoning in general. In MK9 you actually had to think and form a strategy before you started to zone. Spacing in MK9 was superior in all aspects (counter-poking, whiff punishing etc) and in general MK9 was a more riskier game, unfriendly to spammers, or whatever you wanna call them. This does not apply with IGAU IMO. Counter poking is none existent, whiff punishing rarely happens, if at all, and spacing is thrown out of the window with so many gap closing and safe abilities many characters have. Now, dont get me wrong there are characters in IGAU which require skill and thinking to play with, but the majority of the cast is brain dead. In general IGAU is a much much safer game than MK9.

Counter poker non existent? whiff punishing rarely happens? You are playing the game wrong my friend

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

True, Zod looks really interesting, but i was talking about IGAU's zoning in general. In MK9 you actually had to think and form a strategy before you start zoning. Spacing in MK9 was superior in all aspects (counter-poking, whiff punishing etc) and in general MK9 was a more riskier game, unfriendly to spammers, or whatever you wanna call them. This does not apply with IGAU IMO. Counter poking is none existent, whiff punishing rarely happens, if at all, and spacing is thrown out of the window with so many gap closing and safe abilities many characters have. Now, dont get me wrong there are characters in IGAU which require skill and thinking to play with, but the majority of the cast is brain dead.

I hear you, but at the same time I couldn't disagree more.

1. I've seen so many wiff punishes in this game that you lost me as soon as I read that.
2. Counter poking as it was in MK9 may not exist as a whole, but Zod can counter poke, GA can counter poke, as well as many other characters. This game is just different, and allows for many other options in the footsie range than MK9 did. Note, I said "other options" not better options, so if MK9's more you style (I like both), that is fine.
3. Spcaing is insanely important in this game, and I'll just refer to the Injustice GFs for an example. SM dominates GL upclose and from a far, for GL to have advantage he MUST stay mid screen so he can wiff punish and zone from that distance. It makes the match-up pretty tough I realize, but that is where the skill comes in, and the ability to have good reads on your opponent.

Overall, IGAU is just a very young and an underdeveloped game as far as strats and tech go. As more people level up and get more comfortable with match-ups at the highest level, things will even out thoroughly. Of that I am completely confident.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

As a person that understands zoning, and its purpose in fighting games,
this was still a boring grand finals. Its sad to see Superman so dominant because well... he's Superman.
Its almost as if NRS is reluctant to really normalize Superman or he'll stop being Superman.

As a whole, this game is too safe. When so much is safe, there's no risk.
When there's no risk, there's no blow up for taking said risk.
So as a spectator, it goes from being an entertaining idea to Tekken6 Bob vs Bob top8 all over again

This x 10,000.

I'm still always going to be a zoner at heart.
And more comfortable destroying from a distance than up in the proverbial grill.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

Would you guys think the zoning would be as bad if injustice zoning was like SF? Where projectiles could cancel each other out?

I actually think that is why many people dislike Inujistice's/MK's style. IMO it makes it a little tougher as you can trade at full screen so eventually one side is going to have to make a move to get in. In SF, 2 shotos can stay back all day...ALL day, and be "safe" for the most part.

 

[BaronVonRupert]

True, Zod looks really interesting, but i was talking about IGAU's zoning in general. In MK9 you actually had to think and form a strategy before you started to zone. Spacing in MK9 was superior in all aspects (counter-poking, whiff punishing etc) and in general MK9 was a more riskier game, unfriendly to spammers, or whatever you wanna call them. This does not apply with IGAU IMO. Counter poking is none existent, whiff punishing rarely happens, if at all, and spacing is thrown out of the window with so many gap closing and safe abilities many characters have. Now, dont get me wrong there are characters in IGAU which require skill and thinking to play with, but the majority of the cast is brain dead. In general IGAU is a much much safer game than MK9.

whiff punishing happens all the time. i have to agree with injustice haters on some( a lot of) points but you guys honestly take it too far sometimes.

 

[Metzos]

Counter poker non existent? whiff punishing rarely happens? You are playing the game wrong my friend

You havent see me play, so i dont really think you should say that. I was comparing MK9 counter-poking and whiff punishing styles, and trust me, in MK9 it was much harder to whiff punish anything compared to IGAU. How do you counter-poke someone's down poke when its +f on block ? NW's, GL's etc etc ? Thats what i meant.

 

[Metzos]

whiff punishing happens all the time. i have to agree with injustice haters on some( a lot of) points but you guys honestly take it too far sometimes.

You misunderstood me. I like IGAU. I just dont think its just as technical as MK9. Thats all.

 

[Qwark28]

Do you understand what happens in Smash bros? Youd calling it just jumping arround like a bunny with hit and run and it wouldn't seem like a game to you as a filthy casual.

Same with Injustice from a filthy casual viewpoint

Hey, did the kid PND_Ketchup found write that article?

 

[G4S Claude VonStroke]

As a person that understands zoning, and its purpose in fighting games,
this was still a boring grand finals. Its sad to see Superman so dominant because well... he's Superman.
Its almost as if NRS is reluctant to really normalize Superman or he'll stop being Superman.

As a whole, this game is too safe. When so much is safe, there's no risk.
When there's no risk, there's no blow up for taking said risk.
So as a spectator, it goes from being an entertaining idea to Tekken6 Bob vs Bob top8 all over again

Finally someon else gets it on here!! Nice post sir.

 

[Hellbringer]

You havent see me play, so i dont really think you should say that. I was comparing MK9 counter-poking and whiff punishing styles, and trust me, in MK9 it was much harder to whiff punish anything compared to IGAU. How do you counter-poke someone's down poke when its +f on block ? NW's, GL's etc etc ? Thats what i meant.

Stop comparing it to mk9 and you might like injustice.

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

You havent see me play, so i dont really think you should say that. I was comparing MK9 counter-poking and whiff punishing styles, and trust me, in MK9 it was much harder to whiff punish anything compared to IGAU. How do you counter-poke someone's down poke when its +f on block ? NW's, GL's etc etc ? Thats what i meant.

Some characters are made so they have advantage in those situations, that is all that that means. If NW get close and get advantage, push block and make some space. That is all just part of the metagame that differentiates Injustice from MK9.

Regardless, why bring up NW as a bad thing when MK9 has JC? At least in Injustice you have an option to get him off you, in MK9 you are just kinda screwed.

 

[M2Dave]

No different than what 90% of you hypocrites said about pre-patch Deathstroke.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

whiff punishing rarely happens, if at all, and spacing is thrown out of the window with so many gap closing and safe abilities many characters have. Now, dont get me wrong there are characters in IGAU which require skill and thinking to play with, but the majority of the cast is brain dead. In general IGAU is a much much safer game than MK9.

I think there's a lot of whiff punishing in Injustice. Superman vs Black Adam is a whiff punish fest. Obviously since they have such great mid-range normals and are so safe on block, they have to open each other up by baiting and whiff punishing. Most matches are like that but it's just more apparent with those 2 I think.

But yeah, I agree that some strings/moves that are currently safe or +frames should be punishable or more negative and some punishable moves should be safe or safer.

Not sure if I agree that IGAU is really "safer" than MK9 though. I mean you can dash block/dash d1 all day in MK9 and even spam with a few characters without a care in the world. The only time you have to start caring is when they start getting really close. Plus you have all those baby armored wake up combo starters. But in IGAU every time you have to commit to a full vulnerable dash. You have to commit to shit wake ups with most characters and you have to pay more attention to position advantage (unblockable interactables) and meter.

 

[migosan]

I 100% agree however I also agree that Superman's zoning (just superman) needs to be toned down. A character that can out damage every other character in the game should not have the best zoning tools as well. Yes, I will say best zoning in the game because frankly it is.


If anyone dares to try and pull that frame data talk about how easy they are to avoid then I can refer you to the hundreds of superman laser spamming wins the character brought for a ton of people at EVO.

You have to understand there is a guessing game to it. He builds INSANE meter (can literally spam you and MB every 2-3 lasers).

His zoning is top notch. The air laser is a great AA and when it is used along the ground so FAST, you can confuse opponents to think it is the heat zap.


The mind game is sick but something about those lasers (just lasers honestly because superman's full screen presence is way too strong).


And please don't bring up characters that have an easier time than others dealing with it (ie. reflects and teleports, etc) because that is not the case with a lot of the cast.




#NormalizeKalEl.

totally agree with this one, ive been saying this for the longest time with my fellow injustice players here in the ph, nrs is normalizing the wrong moves for supes,no freeze breath adv? damage scaling? they dont matter, all supes needs is that f23 string, and he is all good, but one thing i think that needs to be nerfed for supes is his zoning, esp that crazy heat zap, im ok with the ground and air lasers hitting overhead when burned, you can manage with that, but that heatzap spam is just crazy, first, its recovery is soo fast, even a clean jumpin punish from bats didnt work, reminds me of buffed jax ground pound recovery, you can spam it very fast, builds a lot of meter, great damage, even on block, have you seen what happened to theo when he wasnt moving agains slayer, that was crazy, damage on chip, has knockdown, even pushes you far back, and virtually has no scaling when used in corner combos, normalize either the heatzap or his mb air laser, its all good, he's still going to be ok.

 

[Metzos]

Some characters are made so they have advantage in those situations, that is all that that means. If NW get close and get advantage, push block and make some space. That is all just part of the metagame that differentiates Injustice from MK9.

Regardless, why bring up NW as a bad thing when MK9 has JC? At least in Injustice you have an option to get him off you, in MK9 you are just kinda screwed.

Cause in MK9 you could escape from JC's pressure if you knew when to counter poke. His force ball frame traps could be avoided and he could be punished with a full combo afterwards. His zoning was shit, while NW's zoning is one of the best in the game, his down pokes were punishable, while NW's are +f on block, JC didnt have full screen frame traps, while NW has. Those are some of the differences those two characters have.

 

[Metzos]

I think there's a lot of whiff punishing in Injustice. Superman vs Black Adam is a whiff punish fest. Obviously since they have such great mid-range normals and are so safe on block, they have to open each other up by baiting and whiff punishing. Most matches are like that but it's just more apparent with those 2 I think.

But yeah, I kind of agree that some strings/moves that are currently safe or +frames should be punishable and some punishable moves should be safe or safer.

Not sure if I agree that IGAU is really "safer" than MK9 though. I mean you can dash block/dash d1 all day in MK9 and even spam with a few characters without a care in the world. The only time you have to start caring is when they start getting really close. Plus you have all those baby armored wake up combo starters. But in IGAU every time you have to commit to a full vulnerable dash. You have to commit to shit wake ups with most characters and you have to pay more attention to position advantage (unblockable interactables) and meter.

Agreed, but most of those armored wake ups, could be crouched or jumped on reaction, and the character would get a full combo punish. The majority of IGAU has at least one good wake up though, except some characters who dont need it (Batman for example). I agree with you on the dashing and interactables issues.

 

[ColdBoreMK23]

They're virgins.


Zoners get more women.

 

[Hellbringer]

Cause in MK9 you could escape from JC's pressure if you knew when to counter poke. His force ball frame traps could be avoided and he could be punished with a full combo afterwards. His zoning was shit, while NW's zoning is one of the best in the game, his down pokes were punishable, while NW's are +f on block, JC didnt have full screen frame traps, while NW has. Those are some of the differences those two characters have.

Look thats why i say you need to stop comparing it to mk9. When someone uses a string in injustice or a poke thats safe on block, you have OTHER options then in mk9 to counter it.

 

[DanableLector]

LOL I get so mad when I read comments like that. I know it's not even worth replying to them but I just can't stand the ignorance. Especially when EVERYONE is saying the same stupid things and getting like +70 likes. There was just too much fraudulence going on I had to say something.

Don't know why my post is all fucked up like that.

Haha I saw you got sucked into all that. At least you aren't alone lol. I made a few posts on that Chris G comeback video :-(

 

[Onilordasmodeus]

Cause in MK9 you could escape from JC's pressure if you knew when to counter poke. His force ball frame traps could be avoided and he could be punished with a full combo afterwards. His zoning was shit, while NW's zoning is one of the best in the game, his down pokes were punishable, while NW's are +f on block, JC didnt have full screen frame traps, while NW has. Those are some of the differences those two characters have.

It's all in what angle you come at these characters and games.

1) Escaping f+3333333, is not done through counter pokeing. Yes some characters can escape FB pressure with the right poke at the right time, but again, that is if they chose not to just f+33333333 all day long.

2) JC's zoning may be crap, and NW may have full screen frame traps making him one of the better zoners, but NW's mobility is crap in that stance, so depending on the character you can expolit that to your benifit both up close, in the mid game, and from a far. In contrast, JC is highly mobile all the time, with one of the best dashes in the game, one of the best AAs, and once he gets in, he built to say in, keep you on you feet evern from jusggle states, and counter EVERYTHING. While NW can switch stances (which can leave him open if done at the wrong time) and gain more mobility and zoning options on the fly, JC is just a machine with rapid fire CQC frame traps.

Like I said, it is all in how you come at the game. Overall, Injustice just gives all the characters more options than those in MK9 in the close, mid, and far ranges. Not having to rely soley on counterpokeing to releave CQ pressure is not a bad thing, if you don't like it, it's a style preference more than anything else.

 

[Pakman]

{snip}...and spacing is thrown out of the window with so many gap closing and safe abilities many characters have.

This all day.

I think literally every character in this game has at least 1 move, string or otherwise, that closes gap and is safe. Why this is I have no idea but it completely screws up the spacing game. I can't properly space anyone out for fear of an interactable; a safe travel; and/or in some cases a track-able low.

I guess these all help to keep you on your toes, which fine I can deal with. But when the hell can you play the neutral game? Heck, does the neutral game even exist?!