"You're Fired!" -- Joker General Discussion Thread

[MetaSkipper]

Joker does one thing rather well: making people guess. We need to see if we can make him do it extremely well. Find things like that wall-bounce setup or background-bounce setups.

 

[Qwark28]

Not sure if this setup is new

Normal BnB up to the B3, as theyre bouncing u go under them and do far teeth

in that situation they can do:

wakeup
tech roll
block

vs tech roll= ji3 that will always catch the roll and force em to block at nearly the same time as teeth hit, you can tweak the timing if you want

vs wakeup= bait invincible punishable ones and do an instant neutral j3 to push the non invincible ones into the teeth for a combo

block=b13/b1 flower will throw them onto teeth, so will B2 which is an overhead, both grant combos

safe guessing game in favour of joker if youre willing to drop 14% damage off of the normal bnb

 

[Qwark28]

Cat

 

[MetaSkipper]

Do you have to dash under or should you just walk under?

 

[Cat]

Not sure if this setup is new

Normal BnB up to the B3, as theyre bouncing u go under them and do far teeth

in that situation they can do:

wakeup
tech roll
block

vs tech roll= ji3 that will always catch the roll and force em to block at nearly the same time as teeth hit, you can tweak the timing if you want

vs wakeup= bait invincible punishable ones and do an instant neutral j3 to push the non invincible ones into the teeth for a combo

block=b13/b1 flower will throw them onto teeth, so will B2 which is an overhead, both grant combos

safe guessing game in favour of joker if youre willing to drop 14% damage off of the normal bnb

i thought of that one before.. but im staying away from set ups like that .. i rather do
21, lTankMB, b3, d2, teeth, j2, teeth, 3 flower, sweep, and go for a jump in kick.or dash in pressure..

 

[Qwark28]

Do you have to dash under or should you just walk under?

dash

 

[Jack White]

Here's a cheap Joker trick I like to pull a lot lol:

b13, dash up, and throw. People fall for this all the time. Make sure it's a forward throw though since it puts them really close to Joker. Try forward jump 3 immediately after the forward throw. It beats almost any AA, a lot of back dashes, and shuts down every attempted jump back.

There's honestly a lot of different dumb stunts you can pull like this on unsuspecting players that seem like they shouldn't work but they do.

 

[FixdSwine]

Here's a cheap Joker trick I like to pull a lot lol:

b13, dash up, and throw. People fall for this all the time. Make sure it's a forward throw though since it puts them really close to Joker. Try forward jump 3 immediately after the forward throw. It beats almost any AA, a lot of back dashes, and shuts down every attempted jump back.

There's honestly a lot of different dumb stunts you can pull like this on unsuspecting players that seem like they shouldn't work but they do.

Does this work on wake-ups such as Lex Corps Charge, Flash's Dash or DS's Sword spin?
If it does, Might do that instead of b13 dash b13 to condition people to try break the grab instead, opening them up to mixups.

 

[Jack White]

Does this work on wake-ups such as Lex Corps Charge, Flash's Dash or DS's Sword spin?

Haven't tested it all, but I know it does work on certain wake ups if you time it right. Definitely not going to get corpse charge though lol. The intention however is to use the grab as a surprise. You have to condition your opponent. After a b13 your opponent is in a hard knock down state and you have enough time to dash up and:

1) Attempt a cross up (which can beat certain wake up moves)
2) Do a meaty b13 combo which can actually beats or trades with certain wake ups.
3) Do a b2
4) Grab them (Mostly go for a forward grab)
5) Meter burn F or B 3. They both have a surprisingly big vertical hit box and b3 even hits behind you a little.
6) Neutral jump attack
7) Go for a frame trap 21 into RLG combo. Can be jumped out of but it will surprise people who aren't blocking low or trying to reversal

Against people who are wake up happy, dash up, block, and punish or try to adjust to the character you're fighting. For example, if I'm fighting a Killer Frost, I like to b13, dash, and then jump back 2 for a full combo punish. If you do this once or twice, they will hesitate on sliding on wake up and you can just grab which will likely get them. Against characters like Sex Luthor or Batgirl, blocking and punishing their wake ups normally will suffice.

In reference to the 21xxRLG frame trap, if your opponent grows wise to it they start to block low, however you can instead do 213 which hits overhead and has the exact same hit properties of b13. This means you can dash right up in front of them and do whatever you and mess with them again on wake up.

Speaking of ghetto frame traps for Joker, I feel like 212xxRLG, f23xxRLG, 32xxRLG, and 21xxRLG. Canceling on both the first and second parts of the 21 combo is really effective. You can cancel into RLG on both knife swipes and your opponent has to either jump or block low to avoid it. If they are trying to do anything else, that's an easy 40% damage right there.

I've found that the path to winning as Joker is to try and keep your opponent guessing always. No one plays Joker so these tactics are at least effective online lol.

 

[laudanum09]

Also, 2,1 blocked and follow up with f.2, 3 xx RLG

I like this frametrap, it works pretty well. You'd think you get a free 2,1 after a blocked 2,1 which on paper is true but because of the way you're spaced, d.1s will beat it. Even though on paper d.1's should beat a f.2 after blocked 2,1 they don't because of the spacing.

Against Lex, blocked 2,1 and follow up with b.1,3 anything else gets stuffed. you can trade or win with another 2,1 but it's really hard.

Also, after a blocked 2,1,3 you can do b.1, 3 as a ghetto high/low frame trap. you're at plus after 2,1,3 but out of range for anything else.

 

[Comrade_Aleksey]

Im always using b1 options coz all my friends already blocking b1,3 very well. At least online a lot of ppl who knows this string are eating RLG after b1 a lot! If they lear this "mixup" i can back to 3 or crowbar as ender or just b1 xx mid/far teeth and followed with push block trap/jump2.
I think that hardest J,s MU is strong zoners like Sups or GL so i change my mind and now I'm sure that he needs a projectile parry with speed buff so he could reduced distance more affective!
And i believe his close fight is just fine!

 

[Ren21]

Fairly sure this hasn't been posted but I found some odd bits while practicing safe jumps vs various wakeup attacks. Hope to get some thoughts on the matter. This post is a long one.

I was practicing ending my combos with j3, sweep to see the potential oki I could find using the harder knockdown. I noticed though that when you sweep an opponent during a juggle, you get the hardknock down but that hardknock down comes in two forms when they wakeup. Lets call them Wakeup 1 and Wakeup 2.

Wakeup 1 is your traditional sweep knockdown and the time there on the ground is the same roughly as a grounded sweep. Wakeup 2 however the opponent gets up a few frames faster and the subsequent wakeup attack will blow up safe jump attempts or other setups timed for your traditional sweep ender. I'm not sure if this mechanic was in MK as I come from a Street fighter background or if you could even combo sweeps in MK.

Once I recognized this I tried to figure out what causes it. At first I thought the two wakeups simply alternate like if I get a combo, end with sweep and i get wakeup 1 then later on in the match do a combo again, end with sweep and I get wakeup 2 but this isn't the case. This is where things get weird.

I need to do a bit more testing but apparantly certain moves actually change what wakeup you get. For example, if I do b3, j3, sweep ill get wakeup1, I do the combo again wakeup2, I do it again wakeup1 etc etc. Now if I replace j3 with j2 in the string making it b3, j2, sweep i'll get whatever last wakeup I got over and over. It will never alternate unless I do b3, j3, sweep. The j3 in the combo is what switches the timing.

So naturally I was happy as all I had to do was swap out the j3 for j2 in my bnb to get that excellent hardknock down 100% of the time. Until I found out there are other moves that also switch the timing. To name a few: b1, the last hit of 212, f3 etc. So unless im keeping track of what strings/attacks i'm using (b1? lol) there's no way to know which wakeup you'll get in match. On top of that, apparantly some of the moves switch around sometimes at random when you go to character select. Sometimes j2 will switch timing and j3 wont further making this even more unreliable. I didn't really test to what extent as that alone pretty much discredits relying on sweep to setup reliable mixups.

So then I turned to ending my combos with strings that cause a hardknock down (213, 112, 323). Found that almost all of his strings have a similar effect to his sweep where it has two different wakeup timings. However to trigger the quicker wakeup or wakeup2 (need to do further testing)you have to do a combo that has atleast two knockups in it (teeth, j3 or teeth, b2 come to mind). If you finish the combo with 213 or somethin like b1,3 you'll get wakeup2 just about every time.

The only strings this doesn't effect are 323, 112 and f21. They both will always have the same wakeup timing every time. f21 wakeup is actually really close if not the same as Wakeup1 of the sweep. Ending my combos with f21 or 323 allow me to setup safe jumps and teeth setup that I know will work 100% of the time as its the same wakeup never changing. I've actually came up with some interesting Deathstroke and GL setups ill post up tomorrow using f21. Even though i'm sacrificing 1-4% damage, i'm getting a controlled wakeup which I feel leads to more consistant play overall and guaranteed setups.

When I post the vids i'll talk more abt how this applies to the corner as well and some setups i've found. Think this is enough typing for tonight lol.

Anyway in a nutshell:

323, f21 and 112 is a untechable knockdown 100% of the time.

Ending combos with sweep is too unreliable when it comes to safe jumps and setups as half the time it isnt a true hardknock down unlike grounded sweep. It has some really weird properties when juggled and I don't see a point of using it in combos.

F21 is a great combo ender as its around the same wakeup timing as ground sweep but without the random factor. You'll get the same wakeup timing everytime. (works great in the corner too ill get into that tomorrow)

323 is also good but the wakeup timing is alot quicker then f21.

The point of this is to put the opponent in a untechable knockdown after a combo where you can bait wakeups/options or put them in setups that can't be teched among other things.

 

[laudanum09]

This needs fixing.

So far NRS has shown a lot of love so I'm hoping that they're aiming for stability and normalization across the board. This kind of oddity seems to be a glitch or some type of programming quirk.

Good to know though I'll be going into the lab to check this out myself.

 

[davidovitch]

I don't know if this is old news but there is a glitch with the meter burning of the laugh gas canisters: If you press the meter burn at the last possible frames, the meter is taken away and the joker performs the gun-shot, but the canister has already disappeared so it has no effect (you waste your meter and the opponent takes no extra damage and is not launched and can move to possibly punish it). This happens with both low and high canisters.

I never remember having this happen before patch 1.03 so I would guess (uneducated guess, mind you) that in speeding up the start of the canister moves NRS forgot to adjust the end time of when it can be meter burned.

 

[Gilbagz]

I don't know if this is old news but there is a glitch with the meter burning of the laugh gas canisters: If you press the meter burn at the last possible frames, the meter is taken away and the joker performs the gun-shot, but the canister has already disappeared so it has no effect (you waste your meter and the opponent takes no extra damage and is not launched and can move to possibly punish it). This happens with both low and high canisters.

I never remember having this happen before patch 1.03 so I would guess (uneducated guess, mind you) that in speeding up the start of the canister moves NRS forgot to adjust the end time of when it can be meter burned.

Nah thats been there for a while
There is a lot of stupid stuff involving mb laughing gas

 

[Gilbagz]

Couldnt find any major changes for the latest patch
Corner otg is still there off a crowbar knockdown
Frame data is fixed now
2,1 is +5
3,2,3 is +1

Dont know if they fixed cmd trabs whiffing on a low parry
Parry activation remains the same
Dont know about active frames
Will test more when i get home

 

[Ren21]

Definitely seems like j2 hitbox is better. Feels like his newish bnb (d2 teeth, ji2 teeth) is easier to confirm. Still need to test f21 a little more, seems like you cant end his bnb with f21 need to play around with it more.

 

[MetaSkipper]

According to the official patch notes, nothin's changed for Joker. Then again, who knows?

 

[laudanum09]

Definitely seems like j2 hitbox is better. Feels like his newish bnb (d2 teeth, ji2 teeth) is easier to confirm. Still need to test f21 a little more, seems like you cant end his bnb with f21 need to play around with it more.

you mean his newish one with the two teeth throws right?

 

[Zatoichi]

Good news, Joker can parry Scorpion's teleport.

 

[MetaSkipper]

On reaction?

 

[Zatoichi]

On reaction?

I can't really confirm that, I didn't buy the season pass so I don't have scorpion to test it out. But I was able to Joker Parry most of the Teleports thrown at me online.

 

[B W1zZ]

Based on my handful of online experiences against Scorpion (keyword online) I'm starting to think that this matchup could possibly be slightly in jokers favor. Haven't played any offline Scorps yet.

 

[Bolton]

Good news, Joker can parry Scorpion's teleport.

can you also parry air teleports?

 

[lorenzo]

You can parry his teleports, you can jump back 3 or 2, you can neutral jump, and he has trouble escaping teeth setups. This matchup is either even or slightly scorpion favor. Joker wins the footsie game, but scorpion hell fire and teleport are annoying. Hell fire is still punishable, but it makes joker react or to alway be mobile.