What's new

Why 50/50 should never be used in tournaments

Ben Reed

Marine Biologist
I agree that the drones on Metropolis roof are pretty dumb, but I disagree that they're proof that ALL interactibles are bad, irredeemable, and should be disabled in tourney forever. Even when i'm on the receiving end of them, I like the idea that they skew the paper math on matchups (as long as they don't skew it TOO badly). They're usually little more than fun toys to me as an Aquaman player (and occasional annoyances like Deathstroke on the Atlantis valves), but I wonder if I might feel differently about them if I played a different character. While banning interactibles might help me in certain matchups on stages, it might also hurt me in certain matchups that I might have swung a different way with a wisely deployed interactible. I think it's kinda short-sighted to say we should throw ALL of that away, instead of simply pressing for change on the DUMBEST aspects of the system.

The more elegant solution, I think, is to ban Metropolis in tournament and pressure NRS to nerf the drones or otherwise alter the dumb nature of the rooftop interactible game. I think this pressure could easily be created by a consensus among notable TO's to officially ban Metropolis; NRS will naturally grimace at an element of their game they thought they was cool being banned for being too stupid ("aw c'mon man, how you gonna ban Superman's place of residence from our awesome DC throwdown?"), and will want to tweak it ASAP to please those dissatisfied players.

I don't think this is an unfair or illogical special-case solution. After all, tons of people banned Batgirl when she first came out, and no other characters, simply because there was little proof at the time that NRS had successfully identified and hotfixed everything that was broken about her. If there's a single nail in a sturdy house sticking out to an unreasonable point, you hammer it down. Simple as that.

I don't think it's a slippery slope thing either. I think very few other stage elements create such radical changes to matchups as the Metropolis roof drones. We don't automatically become Smash by banning one stage (insert hygiene joke here). Hell, even crusty old SF4 has kinda moved in this direction as of late. How many matches have you seen where the finals are nothing BUT that boring ass training stage just for the MINOR performance boost (in terms of being able to quickly render stuff on-screen) it offers to the game?

Let me just end this by saying that I don't think interactibles need to go away, but I agree interactibles need to change. They are an interesting mechanic, but some of them definitely need to give a little. I think many (maybe most) of them should do less damage. I think a fair chunk of them should actually be blockable. I think that stupid dumpster needs to be either blockable or a 1-use-only in the hands of gadget characters. EDIT: Same deal with the valves on Atlantis. They should be 1-use only so that baiting them is actually a risk rather than a minor inconvenience to the defender. I think you'd lose very little of the utility these interactibles can provide if you change some of them along these lines.

EDIT: But on-topic, I would accept the stage selection rule Dizzy proposed. People already have to learn how to fight on stages besides their favorite anyway, going with the random-stage rule wouldn't really change that dynamic. Luck of the draw is fair enough.
 

Ermaculate_Slim

We are Many but we didnt make MK11 not one
Why dont we just ban interactables already, that shit sucks.Its the only reason certain stages are a problem.In order for the 50/50 stage selection to work we gonna have to ban em
 

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
Every match on stream on Atlantis? What a snore fest. Lol

I mean yeah, but it's the fairest stage lol. It does favor gadget characters, but if the fight is between a gadget character vs a gadget character or a power character vs a power character, it's definitely by far the fairest stage in the game
 

KRYS9984

Noob
as opposed to Metro Rooftop coming up 50/50?

the most broken stages are going to be the most picked. that's the problem with the 50/50.

The 50 / 50 would only come into play the first match (unless both players agree on a stage) and the rest is up to the losing player.

Unfortunately, there is no base stage (Atlantis is fairest but does not constitute a neutral stage) so someone can benefit from the broken aspect of Metropolis Rooftop. If one day the stage becomes banned or fixed, so be it; until then it's up for grabs in the stage select menu.

In MK9 we had the Courtyard and many excellent stages to start off a first; depending on the outcome people would sometimes opt for the Pit or Rooftop (day) to benefit their characters playstyle / attributes. It's just part of the game, it sucks but still part of the game.

Banning interactables is an option (a good one) but some might argue that the game will not be played as intended
 

SUPARNOVAX

Low tier? I was born in it, molded by it
This is why the stage interactive objects were a bad idea.

Nrs not knowing how to make competitive games as usual

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
 

Oogalord

Noob
The 50 / 50 would only come into play the first match (unless both players agree on a stage) and the rest is up to the losing player.
this will still result in "OP" stages being picked the vast majority of the time. i like the idea of both players having to adapt to a random stage better than two players flipping a coin between their preferred stages, even if the damage/respawning of IOs was toned down.

with 50/50 we will be lucky to see more than three or four stages played constantly at big tourneys, whereas with random all the stages will be played
 

Vogue

Noob
Why we don't do random : all power characters instantly rise in tiers since most stages favor them

Why don't we turn off intractable: they are fair and the most interesting part of the game

Why 50/50 is good: its fair, both characters have a EQUAL chance of getting something that prefers your character. There are no 100% even stages it would be nice if there were, but there are not and it makes the game more fun

50/50 every game or let loser pick stages. Those are the only real options.
 

Dandy J

i can see all the amine
Why don't you just go random? What is the problem with that?
because the game has a built-in system for stage select. you pick your character, why not pick the stage? maybe both players should pick a random character for the first match as well, and a random controller config just to be sure everything is nice and random. random random random random random. its fair!
 

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
because the game has a built-in system for stage select. you pick your character, why not pick the stage? maybe both players should pick a random character for the first match as well, and a random controller config just to be sure everything is nice and random. random random random random random. its fair!
Lol what kind of stupid answer is that?
Every fighting game in which the stage greatly influences the MUs (TTT2, SCV) use random selection in tournaments.
 

cyke_out

Noob
Just random everytime. No other game where stages play a huge part with walls, ring-outs and endless allows a loser pick. It's random everytime, all the time. Otherwise I'm choosing Aeon on the smallest ring-out stage in SCV every damn time. Aeon is A+ in ring out stages, and barely B- everywhere else.
 
So it sounds like all kinds of complicated rules are being thought up here because people are scared they will be viewed as scrubs if stage bans are enforced.

If Metropolis is uniquely broken it makes no sense to make rules specifically around it.

Random stage select sucks in this game and isn't a solution.
 

Vogue

Noob
The problem is that it is no uniquely broken, people just want an immediate fix to everything instead of learning how to deal with things. There is no reason to ban anything especially before Evo. I guess the new generation of fighters do not understand this.
 
random the first: loser can counter-pick be done with it

also people are idiots stages arent just power-character gadget specific, its all matchup specific character vs character rooftop is op for black adam
 
That's gay lol. If Ed Boon didn't demand that than stage would be perfect

wrong, favors turtlers still, the advantages are matchup specific... what if its gadget on gadget zoner or gadget zoner vs power rushdown or vice versa? it's more complicated

it might favor deathstroke vs batman for deathstroke more than other stages but might be bad for deathstroke vs raven in comparison to other stages for deathstroke.... derp


the only truly 100% fair stage would be no interaction at all.
 

cyke_out

Noob
So it sounds like all kinds of complicated rules are being thought up here because people are scared they will be viewed as scrubs if stage bans are enforced.

If Metropolis is uniquely broken it makes no sense to make rules specifically around it.

Random stage select sucks in this game and isn't a solution.
some stages favor certain characters, that is a fact in any 3D games where stages matter, but in those game the player cannot simply flip a coin to get his preferred stage. If the random select blessed you with favorable stage then enjoy it. the loser can then go back to random select and try his luck again, and every so often the same stage will come up twice in a row. it's random, shit happens. But it's the most balanced method of dealing with varied stages and has been working for years in VF, SC and TK.
 
am i crazy for thinking batcave lab is fairer than atlantis

has the most stuff that all characters use the same way i think, and P1-P2 disparity is smaller than most other stages (P1 is more likely to get grenades, P2 is more likely to use the rockets)

on topic: in addition to namco games, i think it could also be worth looking into smash-style rules for stage selection. i especially like the idea of allowing loser to change stage OR character, particularly given how counterpick-heavy this game will likely become in the future...
 
also: im anti-banning simply because things like interactables & gems are the future of fighting games and we should learn how to deal with it now. they can be a huge hook for the casual audience and stream viewers, so expect devs to try a lot more gimmicks from here on out.

hell, look at how sick of SF4 viewers are becoming these days...
 

KRYS9984

Noob
am i crazy for thinking batcave lab is fairer than atlantis
Batcave Lab is quite fair and neutral; there is a stage interactable in the center and 2 interactables on either side that function exactly the same whether a acrobatic, gadget or power character is using them. The only fault is the stage transition which leads into Batcave Lagoon and I personally dislike the electrical wires that can mess with combo launchers.

Gotham City Rooftop is one of my favorite stages as well; it feels like a very good, neutral stage that is composed of the same elements as Batcave Lab. The corner interactables react a little differently depending on the class of character you are using but it's still fair. The only downside (once again) is the stage transition which leads to the Alley and S+ tier dumpster.

There are only about 3 stages that have issues with Metropolis being the main offender. The rest is manageable and should be considered fair play. However, a nerf to interactable damage and reducing the hitbox of thrown interactables (which explode) would be a nice.
 

MrWizard

Evo Master
I'm pretty sad that the community can't figure out the rule set for this game.

Here are the rules for Evo 2013:

Injustice: Gods Among Us

  • Game version: US Playstation 3
  • Game Settings: Versus Mode, 2/3 Rounds, 2/3 Games
  • Lobo, BatGirl and Scorpion are tournament legal.
  • First stage is random select by what is assigned by the game.
  • Loser can re-pick a character, but both players have to revote for stage select if that happens.
  • Loser can opt to pick a stage instead of picking a new character.
If you want a different rule set, then you guys as a whole need to agree on something in the next few weeks.
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
I'm pretty sad that the community can't figure out the rule set for this game.

Here are the rules for Evo 2013:

Injustice: Gods Among Us

  • Game version: US Playstation 3
  • Game Settings: Versus Mode, 2/3 Rounds, 2/3 Games
  • Lobo, BatGirl and Scorpion are tournament legal.
  • First stage is random select by what is assigned by the game.
  • Loser can re-pick a character, but both players have to revote for stage select if that happens.
  • Loser can opt to pick a stage instead of picking a new character.
If you want a different rule set, then you guys as a whole need to agree on something in the next few weeks.
man that is confusing as hell, I literally don't understand the fifth line